Clinch Pre Deny Issue

[FlaccoNumba5]

So today I was watching martial’s latest video of him using Latifi. I saw him using the push often, and I got an idea. The push looks very similar to the clinch entry, so I hit up Romero (poster here) to lab an idea.

My idea was to get the opponent to bite on the push as if it was the clinch, and then actually go for the clinch.

So the test was to push, but have the opponent (Romero) pre deny clinch —> then actually shoot for the clinch and have the opponent (Romero) try to deny clinch again. Hopefully that makes sense. Basically my idea was that if you were to pre deny and guess wrong that there was a cool down between one deny and the next (latest patch) but it seems it only works from clinch deny to takedown deny, not clinch deny to clinch deny.


^ EVERYTHING ABOVE THIS IS JUST BACKSTORY ^


Fast forward a couple minutes and Romero tries the same exact thing on me, and it does not work. Then, I take it a step further and start spamming clinch deny (holding RT and spamming up on the right analog stick) to the point that Romero was able to hear my analog stick through the mic. I noticed that there actually is a small animation that occurs where your hands kinda flinch, but there is 0 negative effect at all. No stamina drain, no nothing. (Also I should note that at this point we’re no longer trying the push thing. We’re just focused on denials)

THE BIGGEST THING(S) HERE is that while I was spamming clinch deny Romero was not able to clinch me AT ALL. I was able to shuck him off at the earliest stages of the animation. (Side note: Along with that, I had him try to hit me and the block function still worked as I was spamming clinch deny) This happened continuously and not once did I stop spamming RT + Up. He was able to get me in the clinch exactly 0 times and if he sees this thread he can say so himself.

this is without the shadow of a doubt an issue, and yes, it does need to be fixed immediately.

If you don’t believe me, get a friend and try it yourself. Stand in the middle of the cage, spam RT + Up and have your friend try to clinch you.

[UFCBlackbelt]

Re: Clinch Pre Deny Issue

yeah ive seen this animation play a few time. That denial has to be tuned.

The clinch denial is also just too dam long.

Look, the thing about the clinch is that there are SO many options to break the clinch, which is good because thats the way clinch fighting should be.

You get someone in Single collar, they can do a clinch break, enter the muay thai and break/attack, or do a single collar whip. The opponent also seems to generally have priority. They can combine this with strikes and feints to increase their odds.

right now you have to work extremely hard to get something that can be relatively exited pretty easily. It has made clinch fighters for the most part useless. There should be a significant decrease in denial window for people who push forward on grapplers in both double legs and clinching. Right now the best strategy for beating grapplers is to literally not give them any space at all, so if they can't outperform you in boxing range using grapplers they struggle badly.

[Papadoc60]

Re: Clinch Pre Deny Issue

yeah ive seen this animation play a few time. That denial has to be tuned.

The clinch denial is also just too dam long.

Look, the thing about the clinch is that there are SO many options to break the clinch, which is good because thats the way clinch fighting should be.

You get someone in Single collar, they can do a clinch break, enter the muay thai and break/attack, or do a single collar whip. The opponent also seems to generally have priority. They can combine this with strikes and feints to increase their odds.

right now you have to work extremely hard to get something that can be relatively exited pretty easily. It has made clinch fighters for the most part useless. There should be a significant decrease in denial window for people who push forward on grapplers in both double legs and clinching. Right now the best strategy for beating grapplers is to literally not give them any space at all, so if they can't outperform you in boxing range using grapplers they struggle badly.

The clinch entry got nerfed so fast, but it's very obvious that it's basically useless once again on account of how slow it is and the window hasn't been reduced. It's been at least a week since they nerfed it.

[GameplayDevUFC]

Re: Clinch Pre Deny Issue

there is 0 negative effect at all.

The negative effect is that you have an opening for an undeniable takedown and an unblockable body strike.

[RomeroXVII]

Re: Clinch Pre Deny Issue

So today I was watching martial’s latest video of him using Latifi. I saw him using the push often, and I got an idea. The push looks very similar to the clinch entry, so I hit up Romero (poster here) to lab an idea.

My idea was to get the opponent to bite on the push as if it was the clinch, and then actually go for the clinch.

So the test was to push, but have the opponent (Romero) pre deny clinch —> then actually shoot for the clinch and have the opponent (Romero) try to deny clinch again. Hopefully that makes sense. Basically my idea was that if you were to pre deny and guess wrong that there was a cool down between one deny and the next (latest patch) but it seems it only works from clinch deny to takedown deny, not clinch deny to clinch deny.


^ EVERYTHING ABOVE THIS IS JUST BACKSTORY ^


Fast forward a couple minutes and Romero tries the same exact thing on me, and it does not work. Then, I take it a step further and start spamming clinch deny (holding RT and spamming up on the right analog stick) to the point that Romero was able to hear my analog stick through the mic. I noticed that there actually is a small animation that occurs where your hands kinda flinch, but there is 0 negative effect at all. No stamina drain, no nothing. (Also I should note that at this point we’re no longer trying the push thing. We’re just focused on denials)

THE BIGGEST THING(S) HERE is that while I was spamming clinch deny Romero was not able to clinch me AT ALL. I was able to shuck him off at the earliest stages of the animation. (Side note: Along with that, I had him try to hit me and the block function still worked as I was spamming clinch deny) This happened continuously and not once did I stop spamming RT + Up. He was able to get me in the clinch exactly 0 times and if he sees this thread he can say so himself.

this is without the shadow of a doubt an issue, and yes, it does need to be fixed immediately.

If you don’t believe me, get a friend and try it yourself. Stand in the middle of the cage, spam RT + Up and have your friend try to clinch you.

Everything here is absolutely true. There should be at least a stamina drain for spamming R2 + UP. There should at least be an animation that shows that they are denying the clinch.

[SUGATA]

Re: Clinch Pre Deny Issue

The negative effect is that you have an opening for an undeniable takedown and an unblockable body strike.

Why you don’t want to implement the entire Dynamic grappling mechanics which we have on the ground to the Stand up and Clinch?

1. Remove Pre denying by constant holding grabber Block

2. Make time penalty for mistimed deny

3. Make more variants for Stand up Clinch/TD attempt and Clinch throw Grapple Block directions, at least 2 for TD deny (SL and DL) and 2 for Clinch deny (so we need to use 4 deny directions instead of 2 - 1 for Clinch and 1 for all TDs) with changing their initial move animation for better recognizing.

Also do you know that strike delay after blocking lunge is not working correctly and as mentioned? If no I can describe it in details.

[cal7_11]

Re: Clinch Pre Deny Issue

The negative effect is that you have an opening for an undeniable takedown and an unblockable body strike.

This is fantastic IF we had an animation letting us know they were pre denying GPD. As it is now, there is ZERO downside to pre denying.

Please tell me you guys are at least looking at putting an animation in!? Or removing the ability to pre deny. Something needs to be done

[GameplayDevUFC]

Re: Clinch Pre Deny Issue

Why you don’t want to implement the entire Dynamic grappling mechanics which we have on the ground to the Stand up and Clinch?

1. Remove Pre denying by constant holding grabber Block

2. Make time penalty for mistimed deny

3. Make more variants for Stand up Clinch/TD attempt and Clinch throw Grapple Block directions, at least 2 for TD deny (SL and DL) and 2 for Clinch deny (so we need to use 4 deny directions instead of 2 - 1 for Clinch and 1 for all TDs) with changing their initial move animation for better recognizing.

Also do you know that strike delay after blocking lunge is not working correctly and as mentioned? If no I can describe it in details.

2 already exists.

And no, lunge while blocking is working as intended. If you have a video to show otherwise I'd like to see it.

Sent from my Pixel using Operation Sports mobile app

[GameplayDevUFC]

Re: Clinch Pre Deny Issue

This is fantastic IF we had an animation letting us know they were pre denying GPD. As it is now, there is ZERO downside to pre denying.

Please tell me you guys are at least looking at putting an animation in!? Or removing the ability to pre deny. Something needs to be done

No, there isn't zero downside. I told you what the downside is and you ignored it and used the word zero again.

Sent from my Pixel using Operation Sports mobile app

[cal7_11]

Re: Clinch Pre Deny Issue

No, there isn't zero downside. I told you what the downside is and you ignored it and used the word zero again.

Sent from my Pixel using Operation Sports mobile app

But the downside isn’t visible GPD. How can you take advantage of someone pre denying if you don’t know they are pre denying!?

[Newaza Expert]

Re: Clinch Pre Deny Issue

But the downside isn’t visible GPD. How can you take advantage of someone pre denying if you don’t know they are pre denying!?

You just have to guess and hope they don't throw an uppercut when you go for the takedown or attack the body; usually they're in your face the whole time pressuring you and even without pre-denying clinch it's still easy enough to shrug it off with a late reaction.

There's definitely a downside to pre-deny, and I like that, but it's still easy to get away with it. And you lose a lot of stamina after you keep getting denied so the risk is huge for very little reward. All for a neutral clinching position with various escape options.

[cal7_11]

Re: Clinch Pre Deny Issue

You just have to guess and hope they don't throw an uppercut when you go for the takedown or attack the body; usually they're in your face the whole time pressuring you and even without pre-denying clinch it's still easy enough to shrug it off with a late reaction.

There's definitely a downside to pre-deny, and I like that, but it's still easy to get away with it. And you lose a lot of stamina after you keep getting denied so the risk is huge for very little reward. All for a neutral clinching position with various escape options.

Yeah it’s hilariously imbalanced for, as you say, a neutral clinch position with various escape options. You’d think it was a fight ending move with how easy it is to deny.

[bmlimo]

Re: Clinch Pre Deny Issue

Everything here is absolutely true. There should be at least a stamina drain for spamming R2 + UP. There should at least be an animation that shows that they are denying the clinch.

I disagree, if you can spam clinch the whole time, why not your opponent spam clinch defense? Also theres no need for animation... when a guy is pre denying clinch he stays without guard, is a free strike/takedowns situation. The problem here is that some people just want to spend the whole fight clinch spamming whithout set up anything.
What you guys should fight for is a faster clinch entrace when the opponent is comming straight to you.

[RomeroXVII]

Re: Clinch Pre Deny Issue

I disagree, if you can spam clinch the whole time, why not your opponent spam clinch defense? Also theres no need for animation... when a guy is pre denying clinch he stays without guard, is a free strike/takedowns situation. The problem here is that some people just want to spend the whole fight clinch spamming whithout set up anything.
What you guys should fight for is a faster clinch entrace when the opponent is comming straight to you.

You can't Spam the clinch without a consequence, the more your clinch gets denied, the more stamina gets drained. Where as you can just keep pressing R2 + UP, even as you're doing a combo so you don't get clinched.

TD Counters would stop the TD.

But the last part would be better. I'd say, the more strikes you slip, the harder it is for a denial, if you slip 3 strikes, it should be undeniable.


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[Phillyboi207]

Re: Clinch Pre Deny Issue

You can't Spam the clinch without a consequence, the more your clinch gets denied, the more stamina gets drained. Where as you can just keep pressing R2 + UP, even as you're doing a combo so you don't get clinched.

TD Counters would stop the TD.

But the last part would be better. I'd say, the more strikes you slip, the harder it is for a denial, if you slip 3 strikes, it should be undeniable.


Sent from my SM-G965U using Operation Sports mobile app

Tbh a minor slip inside at punch range should give you an auto O/U.

Single collar and over under should be undeniable if you’re mid strike at elbow range.

And clinch attempts in general against forward moving opponents should be faster