Just wrestle

[Good Grappler]

As DC said to Ben the other day. “Just wrestle”. This was his advice to Ben, reminding him to stay true to his guns, and stay dedicated to his wrestling.

Doing this in EA UFC 3 would immediately and irreparably destroy your stamina, and lead to a large, fat, malodorous L.

Some unexpected, yet in my opinion CRUCIAL steps to fixing this, are as follows:

GCs and Devs, and other humans with “sway”... CHANGE YOUR STANCE ON RASSLIN.

Specifically:

Lay n Pray must be a possible strategy. I’M NOT SAYING IT SHOULD BE A DOMINANT STRATEGY, OR THAT ITS A FUN STRATEGY. But it MUST be made POSSIBLE, because IN DOING SO, it indirectly ESTABLISHES A SET OF FUNDAMENTALS that a well-made MMA game MUST HAVE.

All wrestling aspects of an MMA game must be built upon the fundamental TRUTH that LAY N PRAY IS 100% POSSIBLE. This is the PILLAR by which grappling in an MMA game must be built upon.

Alhobert, you’re a great guy. Couldn’t have picked a better Game Changer, and I love that you stand up for the offline gamers (the playerbase majority). You’re probably the most important GC. Being said, you hate top control. You’ve been vocally adamant that “players don’t want to be laid on the entire game”. This philosophy is poison. “Devs don’t want LnP to be a viable strategy” is another statement you’ve made, and it’s true. They don’t. Again, this is poisonous to the evolution of Digital MMA Wrestling.

There’s this idea, set in stone, that casual players prefer striking over wrestling. And they prefer an active ground game over an inactive one. Whereas I propose the following: THEY DON’T ACTUALLY CARE AS MUCH AS YOU THINK THEY DO! They will EMBRACE the grind, if given the opportunity. Ben Askren was expected to be a total hated bum, if he ever signed with UFC. Guess what. Casuals already love him. Maybe that’s an irrelevant point, but I said it anyways.

Over and out.

[SteveM584]

Re: Just wrestle

I, for one, am happy with lay and pray not being a feasible strategy.

[tomitomitomi]

Re: Just wrestle

I wouldn't call control and lay and pray synonymous. For me at least lay and pray is a strategy where you try to stall the action and win rounds purely based on maintaining top position. Controlling your opponent while actively hitting them (Chael Sonnen, GSP) or advancing position (Askren) don't count as lay and pray IMO.

I don't have an issue if a guy can sit in someone's guard all day while beating him up as long as it isn't too easy, but being able to just lay in a closed guard, block transitions and win rounds is a terrible idea.

[Papadoc60]

Re: Just wrestle

As DC said to Ben the other day. “Just wrestle”. This was his advice to Ben, reminding him to stay true to his guns, and stay dedicated to his wrestling.

Doing this in EA UFC 3 would immediately and irreparably destroy your stamina, and lead to a large, fat, malodorous L.

Some unexpected, yet in my opinion CRUCIAL steps to fixing this, are as follows:

GCs and Devs, and other humans with “sway”... CHANGE YOUR STANCE ON RASSLIN.

Specifically:

Lay n Pray must be a possible strategy. I’M NOT SAYING IT SHOULD BE A DOMINANT STRATEGY, OR THAT ITS A FUN STRATEGY. But it MUST be made POSSIBLE, because IN DOING SO, it indirectly ESTABLISHES A SET OF FUNDAMENTALS that a well-made MMA game MUST HAVE.

All wrestling aspects of an MMA game must be built upon the fundamental TRUTH that LAY N PRAY IS 100% POSSIBLE. This is the PILLAR by which grappling in an MMA game must be built upon.

Alhobert, you’re a great guy. Couldn’t have picked a better Game Changer, and I love that you stand up for the offline gamers (the playerbase majority). You’re probably the most important GC. Being said, you hate top control. You’ve been vocally adamant that “players don’t want to be laid on the entire game”. This philosophy is poison. “Devs don’t want LnP to be a viable strategy” is another statement you’ve made, and it’s true. They don’t. Again, this is poisonous to the evolution of Digital MMA Wrestling.

There’s this idea, set in stone, that casual players prefer striking over wrestling. And they prefer an active ground game over an inactive one. Whereas I propose the following: THEY DON’T ACTUALLY CARE AS MUCH AS YOU THINK THEY DO! They will EMBRACE the grind, if given the opportunity. Ben Askren was expected to be a total hated bum, if he ever signed with UFC. Guess what. Casuals already love him. Maybe that’s an irrelevant point, but I said it anyways.

Over and out.

There are HUGE issues with grappling stamina vs striking stamina. If you time a single body straight under your opponents jab or hook you'll acquire a larger stamina advantage than you would if you smothered them for the entire round on top. This is so dumb, it's significantly easier to gas your opponent on the feet than if you were straight up mauling them with top control. Early takedown denials will destroy your stamina.

GPD made an attempt to change this in a tuner with the changes in denial stamina cost depending on position but didn't really follow up in the patch afterwards despite these changes having little effect. I hope to see more changes for grapple stamina in the next patch and that it hasn't been forgotten.

There also needs to be grappling 10-8 rounds if we are going to have a scoring system where damage is the only thing that matters, we need to be consistent here.

[RetractedMonkey]

Re: Just wrestle

You can definitely lay and pray if you’re good enough. Maybe you’ve started slacking off on your training, but you used to be able to as well. I think you know this but want the game to switch over to your favor entirely considering you have a disdain for striking.

The current amount of lnp is enough to resemble the real life counterpart, but casual enough not to piss everyone off.

You have no idea how wrong you are about people not caring.


Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

[aholbert32]

Re: Just wrestle

I wouldn't call control and lay and pray synonymous. For me at least lay and pray is a strategy where you try to stall the action and win rounds purely based on maintaining top position. Controlling your opponent while actively hitting them (Chael Sonnen, GSP) or advancing position (Askren) don't count as lay and pray IMO.

I don't have an issue if a guy can sit in someone's guard all day while beating him up as long as it isn't too easy, but being able to just lay in a closed guard, block transitions and win rounds is a terrible idea.

This.

Using this definition, lay and pray will likely never be viable in this game and most people will be happy with this.

Controlling and advancing is already possible in this game although it could be improved.

[Papadoc60]

Re: Just wrestle

You can definitely lay and pray if you’re good enough. Maybe you’ve started slacking off on your training, but you used to be able to as well. I think you know this but want the game to switch over to your favor entirely considering you have a disdain for striking.

The current amount of lnp is enough to resemble the real life counterpart, but casual enough not to piss everyone off.

You have no idea how wrong you are about people not caring.


Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

Most people aren't aware that transition fakes extend the stand up timer and make it easier for you to pass and reset the stand up timer altogether.

[WarMMA]

Re: Just wrestle

What UD3 had with their posturing system on the ground was the closest thing i've ever seen to LnP in an MMA game. It wasn't actual LnP, but it just gave you a way to maintain better control of opponents by allowing you to stay postured down after you broke the opponents posture control. The system also allowed you to quickly posture up and down fluidly, by holding the stick up to stay postured up and simply letting go of the stick to drop back down. If EA UFC could get something like this going on with their posturing system, using a LnP style would be much more possible than it is now.

[VitoBurrito]

Re: Just wrestle

Hopeless grappling system, need an entire over haul, but then we’ll be back to square one and will take several years to be decent, right now the lack of depth makes it get old really fast, shame

[bmlimo]

Re: Just wrestle

What!? Grappling in this game is based on lay’n pray... but here you can say “lay’n deny” or “lay’n fake”
... I like your post ... but we need a different grappling system to archive what you want...

[Good Grappler]

Re: Just wrestle

I think the problem is this need to differentiate between lay n pray and “top control”. Yes, they’re different things, but it’s a bad idea to try and differentiate these from a development standpoint.

Lay n Pray should just be a natural byproduct of a good grappling system. Top control will never feel natural and immersive, if the developers are going out of their way to ensure LnP isn’t possible.

Know what I’m saying? I don’t know how to word this.

[Phillyboi207]

Re: Just wrestle

I think the problem is this need to differentiate between lay n pray and “top control”. Yes, they’re different things, but it’s a bad idea to try and differentiate these from a development standpoint.

Lay n Pray should just be a natural byproduct of a good grappling system. Top control will never feel natural and immersive, if the developers are going out of their way to ensure LnP isn’t possible.

Know what I’m saying? I don’t know how to word this.

I dunno if this is what you were gettin at but I think the issue is right now we have either control OR being active. If you strike, transition, feint it all runs the risk of you losing control.

The best guys with top pressure are active while maintaining control. They secure positions and then get to work with constant strikes forcing the bottom guy to react.

Hopefully UFC 4 has minor transitions that allow us to improve positions little by little or posture up without sitting straight up and losing control

[TheGentlemanGhost]

Re: Just wrestle

I don't know about lnp per se, but we do need a system that let's you feel more like you can maintain control. UD3 had a better feel for this imo and I think it's more immersive.

Sent from my SM-J700P using Operation Sports mobile app

[UFCBlackbelt]

Re: Just wrestle

I don't know about lnp per se, but we do need a system that let's you feel more like you can maintain control. UD3 had a better feel for this imo and I think it's more immersive.

Sent from my SM-J700P using Operation Sports mobile app

I think it would do the game a lot of justice to truly represent grappling, but I just feel like it's too scary to implement into the game.

There is just so much more to grappling than earning one position, there are dozens of micropositions and adjustments. You are in half guard, ok. Do you have an underhook? Is your base flat? Are you pushing for quarter guard? Are you in lockdown? Ok, you are in guard. Do you have posture control? Do you have wrist control? Bicep control? Are you flat, where are your opponent's arms? Are you locked or open for a pass? You're defending a takedown, are you framing? Do you have a wizzer or an overhook supporting your base? Etc.

I think a serious consideration for hiring a legit grappler to explain these fundamentals would be huge. You could still have players working the major transitions (our current system) which would be casual-friendly, but the micro-transitions would differentiate your jacares from your Brunsons. Your Daniel Cormiers from your OSPs. At the same time it would really teach about grappling.

Alas though, I think it's not in EA's books, just a dream.

[sheredia]

Re: Just wrestle

I think it would do the game a lot of justice to truly represent grappling, but I just feel like it's too scary to implement into the game.

There is just so much more to grappling than earning one position, there are dozens of micropositions and adjustments. You are in half guard, ok. Do you have an underhook? Is your base flat? Are you pushing for quarter guard? Are you in lockdown? Ok, you are in guard. Do you have posture control? Do you have wrist control? Bicep control? Are you flat, where are your opponent's arms? Are you locked or open for a pass? You're defending a takedown, are you framing? Do you have a wizzer or an overhook supporting your base? Etc.

I think a serious consideration for hiring a legit grappler to explain these fundamentals would be huge. You could still have players working the major transitions (our current system) which would be casual-friendly, but the micro-transitions would differentiate your jacares from your Brunsons. Your Daniel Cormiers from your OSPs. At the same time it would really teach about grappling.

Alas though, I think it's not in EA's books, just a dream.

would it ever be possible to have a submission underground mode in the game (grappling only with submissions) sort of like the knockout mode?