How to sort power, health and rocks for UFC 4 discussion.

[Lauriedr1ver]

As we all know there are far far too many rocks and knowdowns per fight, in relation to finishing a fight I mean. Am making a thread to start an in depth discussion on the topic. This has been a long standing issue in the game and greatly affects online and offline play.

From my perspective increasing power alone brings about a lot if problems to game balance and would result in rocks happening more frequently rather than addressing the issue effectively. Increasing the value of rocks in terms of how they affect a fighter would reduce the number of rocks to get a finish but doesnt do anything to address rock frequency which is also a problem.

To solve the issue I believe it will take a combination of essentially changes to the way striking works. Changes Id perosanlly like to see:
• Better hit detection
• Greater seperation between clean and glancing blows
• More defensive tools that reduce damage recieved, ie rolling punches and parries
• Power modifier for individual strikes
• Accuracy having a larger effect and reducing the number of landed shots
• Have more animation varients and greater control of the distances of strikes.
• More health events that have different meanings
• Standing tko scenerios
• Stamina and combos rework for flurries and finishing sequences

Please leave your thoughts on the topic as well as leave your own ideas and debate some of my suggestions.

Credit Kingslayer04

The TKO/Standing TKO concept:
If one fighter gets a certain numbers of rocks or drops in quick succession (1 accelerated minute or 1 accelerated minute and something), there should be an audible warning from the referee that he'll stop the fight after 1 or 2 more clean shots.

The rocks, just like the KDs right now, should have different states, at least 3:

1.Mild
2.Moderate
3.Severe

Each of these should come with certain side effects - temporary stat drops which vary in length depending on the severity and the number of health events entered, perhaps loss of equilibrium, I am sure there are plenty of fun things that can be done here. Despite there being different kinds of KDs right now, they are still very shallow and need to come with temporary stat nerfs (just like I described with the stuns) as well. If you are very badly dropped your bottom game should suffer for it, etc, at least temporarily, for example.

When does the warning trigger?

3 Moderate Stuns in quick succession should trigger it.
2 Severe Stuns in quick succession should trigger it.
1 Mild and 2 Moderate could trigger it, etc, etc.

2 Moderate KDs should trigger it.
1 Severe KD shouldn't result in a TKO warning like these ones, but it should really be severe, you'll be dizzy and it should be really likely for the guy to finish you. These can be fleshed out in the development process, but that's the general idea.

What should the defender do when these are triggered?

It's up to them, but they're in trouble. Do I wanna panic shoot, do I want to throw a hail mary strike, do I want to clinch, do I want to block? You have to make a decision and you have to make it fast and none of them will be a guaranteed escape, as you're hurt and your stats have suffered. It's basic instinct time, and you're in danger big time. You are likely to lose and saving yourself would be a heroic feat, rather than an automatic deus-ex-machina salvation times infinity.

[Kingslayer04]

Re: How to sort power, health and rocks for UFC 4 discussion.

As we all know there are far far too many rocks and knowdowns per fight, in relation to finishing a fight I mean. Am making a thread to start an in depth discussion on the topic. This has been a long standing issue in the game and greatly affects online and offline play.

From my perspective increasing power alone brings about a lot if problems to game balance and would result in rocks happening more frequently rather than addressing the issue effectively. Increasing the value of rocks in terms of how they affect a fighter would reduce the number of rocks to get a finish but doesnt do anything to address rock frequency which is also a problem.

To solve the issue I believe it will take a combination of essentially changes to the way striking works. Changes Id perosanlly like to see:
• Better hit detection
• Greater seperation between clean and glancing blows
• More defensive tools that reduce damage recieved, ie rolling punches and parries
• Power modifier for individual strikes
• Accuracy having a larger effect and reducing the number of landed shots
• Have more animation varients and greater control of the distances of strikes.
• More health events that have different meanings
• Standing tko scenerios
• Stamina and combos rework for flurries and finishing sequences

Please leave your thoughts on the topic as well as leave your own ideas and debate some of my suggestions.

The TKO/Standing TKO concept:
If one fighter gets a certain numbers of rocks or drops in quick succession (1 accelerated minute or 1 accelerated minute and something), there should be an audible warning from the referee that he'll stop the fight after 1 or 2 more clean shots.

The rocks, just like the KDs right now, should have different states, at least 3:

1.Mild
2.Moderate
3.Severe

Each of these should come with certain side effects - temporary stat drops which vary in length depending on the severity and the number of health events entered, perhaps loss of equilibrium, I am sure there are plenty of fun things that can be done here. Despite there being different kinds of KDs right now, they are still very shallow and need to come with temporary stat nerfs (just like I described with the stuns) as well. If you are very badly dropped your bottom game should suffer for it, etc, at least temporarily, for example.

When does the warning trigger?

3 Moderate Stuns in quick succession should trigger it.
2 Severe Stuns in quick succession should trigger it.
1 Mild and 2 Moderate could trigger it, etc, etc.

2 Moderate KDs should trigger it.
1 Severe KD shouldn't result in a TKO warning like these ones, but it should really be severe, you'll be dizzy and it should be really likely for the guy to finish you. These can be fleshed out in the development process, but that's the general idea.

What should the defender do when these are triggered?

It's up to them, but they're in trouble. Do I wanna panic shoot, do I want to throw a hail mary strike, do I want to clinch, do I want to block? You have to make a decision and you have to make it fast and none of them will be a guaranteed escape, as you're hurt and your stats have suffered. It's basic instinct time, and you're in danger big time. You are likely to lose and saving yourself would be a heroic feat, rather than an automatic deus-ex-machina salvation times infinity.

[Lauriedr1ver]

Re: How to sort power, health and rocks for UFC 4 discussion.

I've talked about Standing TKOs (as well as other things), l'll mention it here too. I think if one fighter gets 3-4, I'd say 3, knockdowns or stuns (or maybe I should say moderate or severe stuns, because these should be a thing too and they should bring in effects such as temporary stat drops, equilibrium loss (?), certain side effects depending on the severity, I'm pretty sure plenty of fun things can be done here), there should be an audible warning from the referee that he'll stop it after another 1-2 clean shots. From there it's up to the defender - do I wanna panic shoot, do I wanna throw a hail mary shot, do I wanna block, you gotta make a decision and you gotta make it fast or he'll stop it if you get tagged badly again. To return to the number of rocks required, maybe 3 moderates will trigger it, or 2 severe ones. Of course, KDs will also trigger it. The "quick succession" could be within an accelerated minute, or minute and something, for example.

If you right out your ideas, which all seem good, in a list format or with each point being explaining i will add it to the OP. I completely agrew with everything here.

[Kingslayer04]

Re: How to sort power, health and rocks for UFC 4 discussion.

If you right out your ideas, which all seem good, in a list format or with each point being explaining i will add it to the OP. I completely agrew with everything here.

I'll edit it and try to make it in a list format in a few minutes.

[Lauriedr1ver]

Re: How to sort power, health and rocks for UFC 4 discussion.

The TKO/Standing TKO concept:
If one fighter gets a certain numbers of rocks or drops in quick succession (1 accelerated minute or 1 accelerated minute and something), there should be an audible warning from the referee that he'll stop the fight after 1 or 2 more clean shots.

The rocks, just like the KDs right now, should have different states, at least 3:

1.Mild
2.Moderate
3.Severe

Each of these should come with certain side effects - temporary stat drops which vary in length depending on the severity and the number of health events entered, perhaps loss of equilibrium, I am sure there are plenty of fun things that can be done here. Despite there being different kinds of KDs right now, they are still very shallow and need to come with temporary stat nerfs (just like I described with the stuns) as well. If you are very badly dropped your bottom game should suffer for it, etc, at least temporarily, for example.

When does the warning trigger?

3 Moderate Stuns in quick succession should trigger it.
2 Severe Stuns in quick succession should trigger it.
1 Mild and 2 Moderate could trigger it, etc, etc.

2 Moderate KDs should trigger it.
1 Severe KD shouldn't result in a TKO warning like these ones, but it should really be severe, you'll be dizzy and it should be really likely for the guy to finish you. These can be fleshed out in the development process, but that's the general idea.

What should the defender do when these are triggered?

It's up to them, but they're in trouble. Do I wanna panic shoot, do I want to throw a hail mary strike, do I want to clinch, do I want to block? You have to make a decision and you have to make it fast and none of them will be a guaranteed escape, as you're hurt and your stats have suffered. It's basic instinct time, and you're in danger big time. You are likely to lose and saving yourself would be a heroic feat, rather than an automatic deus-ex-machina salvation times infinity.

In relation to stuns id actually want 5, which would be.
• Stopping shot, haults forward movement.
• Clean Shot, control vibrates for defender to indicate chin health has been depleted as well as small screen rock.
• Rock, 2-5 second rock we have currently.
• Hard Rock, rock we have currently but causes your stats to deplete for up to a minute, also allows the attackers endless combo mode to activate.
• TKO, 30 second rock, attackers endless combo is activate, depending on the players stamina can result in a standing tko when 4 successive strikes land or goes on to a severe knockdown and finished there.

Endless combo mode.
Essentially when activated the attacker gets to enter and endless combo, no slow down in strikes and combo is completely fluid, would require a combo moveset. This would allow is to see proper attacking flurries that end fights irl.

[RomeroXVII]

Re: How to sort power, health and rocks for UFC 4 discussion.

In relation to stuns id actually want 5, which would be.
• Stopping shot, haults forward movement.
• Clean Shot, control vibrates for defender to indicate chin health has been depleted as well as small screen rock.
• Rock, 2-5 second rock we have currently.
• Hard Rock, rock we have currently but causes your stats to deplete for up to a minute, also allows the attackers endless combo mode to activate.
• TKO, 30 second rock, attackers endless combo is activate, depending on the players stamina can result in a standing tko when 4 successive strikes land or goes on to a severe knockdown and finished there.

Endless combo mode.
Essentially when activated the attacker gets to enter and endless combo, no slow down in strikes and combo is completely fluid, would require a combo moveset. This would allow is to see proper attacking flurries that end fights irl.

I like this thread.
What you should post, is the finishing sequence between José Aldo and Renato Moicano, and slow it down to input where you should think what should be what.

Aldo hits him with a Left Hook, sees Moicano stagger just a little bit and raise his hands up, that should be that small slight rock. Then as he continues to pour it on the rocked state increases, as does audible ref involvement.



If the fighter doesn't utilize any head movement, doesn't strike back, and turns away and proceeds to allow more punishment to come his way, then that increases the likelihood of a standing TKO.



The real tough question would be implementing this correctly, and making sure dudes don't get rocked once or twice and the fight is called off early, that would turn people off from EA UFC for sure.

[Lauriedr1ver]

Re: How to sort power, health and rocks for UFC 4 discussion.

I like this thread.
What you should post, is the finishing sequence between José Aldo and Renato Moicano, and slow it down to input where you should think what should be what.

Aldo hits him with a Left Hook, sees Moicano stagger just a little bit and raise his hands up, that should be that small slight rock. Then as he continues to pour it on the rocked state increases, as does audible ref involvement.



If the fighter doesn't utilize any head movement, doesn't strike back, and turns away and proceeds to allow more punishment to come his way, then that increases the likelihood of a standing TKO.



The real tough question would be implementing this correctly, and making sure dudes don't get rocked once or twice and the fight is called off early, that would turn people off from EA UFC for sure.

Responding to bolded areas.

Just like IRL where mo effectively defending yourself is stopped I like that. Also do you believe you can flurry like thatin this game?

I believe they should lean towards like as clear as day stoppages, like almost what they would call late stoppages irl to please people. You could say this for the already suspect judging on the game but it hasnt really turned people off.

[RomeroXVII]

Re: How to sort power, health and rocks for UFC 4 discussion.

Responding to bolded areas.

Just like IRL where mo effectively defending yourself is stopped I like that. Also do you believe you can flurry like thatin this game?

I believe they should lean towards like as clear as day stoppages, like almost what they would call late stoppages irl to please people. You could say this for the already suspect judging on the game but it hasnt really turned people off.

I wish you could flurry just like that in the game. The closest thing you can get to that is when you're rocking them over and over.


The only way to have that happen on UFC 4, is more fluid movement from the left stick. Hell, I'll throw in Dragon Ball Xenoverse 2 for example. Unless you 'lock on' your punches and kicks won't hit your opponent unless they're in front of you, you have the ability to literally run in a circle if you wanted to lol.

If I'm circling to my left, and my opponent throws a Straight strike, especially planted, because I'm circling away, it should have a higher likelihood of it missing, vs against a round strike. Shot selection should matter a lot more than simply trying to block break.


We could do without a Endless combo mode, that sounds a bit too arcadey for me.





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[Lauriedr1ver]

Re: How to sort power, health and rocks for UFC 4 discussion.

I wish you could flurry just like that in the game. The closest thing you can get to that is when you're rocking them over and over.


The only way to have that happen on UFC 4, is more fluid movement from the left stick. Hell, I'll throw in Dragon Ball Xenoverse 2 for example. Unless you 'lock on' your punches and kicks won't hit your opponent unless they're in front of you, you have the ability to literally run in a circle if you wanted to lol.

If I'm circling to my left, and my opponent throws a Straight strike, especially planted, because I'm circling away, it should have a higher likelihood of it missing, vs against a round strike. Shot selection should matter a lot more than simply trying to block break.


We could do without a Endless combo mode, that sounds a bit too arcadey for me.





Sent from my SM-G965U using Operation Sports mobile app

Players rarely thow while planted though, especially at lower levels, Id suggest it would have to be for fwd moving as well as planted.

Regarding the endless combo system thats just the only way I can see adding fluid finishing flurries to UFC 4 using the current striking system, unless you want another revamp.

[RomeroXVII]

Re: How to sort power, health and rocks for UFC 4 discussion.

Players rarely thow while planted though, especially at lower levels, Id suggest it would have to be for fwd moving as well as planted.

Regarding the endless combo system thats just the only way I can see adding fluid finishing flurries to UFC 4 using the current striking system, unless you want another revamp.

Higher levels, planted strikes are very common once they get close to your face, moving forward strikes tend to have more vulnerability, and they should be easier to avoid if telegraphed.

All they have to remove, is the notion of not being able to combo your own strikes. Just allow fluid striking for all fighters, but for specific fighters that come from a specific fighting background, their variation of the combo should be much smoother and faster, as well as for certain strikes.


Demian Maia for example, can likely throw a lead body hook leg kick. However, it definitely would PALE in comparison to José Aldo's, so Aldo's would be MONUMENTALLY faster/stronger than Maia's.

Another good example are Edgar's low kicks vs Aldo's, or Weidman's body kicks vs Rockhold's. Edgar would land a leg kick, but it was meh in comparison to how well Aldo landed his, as well as the technique and power behind Aldo's as well.

When Rockhold fought Weidman, and Weidman would land a kick, Rockhold would throw it back almost as if to say, 'Nah son, THIS is how you throw it'.

This can also segment into having different animations for different move levels as well.



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[Lauriedr1ver]

Re: How to sort power, health and rocks for UFC 4 discussion.

Higher levels, planted strikes are very common once they get close to your face, moving forward strikes tend to have more vulnerability, and they should be easier to avoid if telegraphed.

All they have to remove, is the notion of not being able to combo your own strikes. Just allow fluid striking for all fighters, but for specific fighters that come from a specific fighting background, their variation of the combo should be much smoother and faster, as well as for certain strikes.


Demian Maia for example, can likely throw a lead body hook leg kick. However, it definitely would PALE in comparison to José Aldo's, so Aldo's would be MONUMENTALLY faster/stronger than Maia's.

Another good example are Edgar's low kicks vs Aldo's, or Weidman's body kicks vs Rockhold's. Edgar would land a leg kick, but it was meh in comparison to how well Aldo landed his, as well as the technique and power behind Aldo's as well.

When Rockhold fought Weidman, and Weidman would land a kick, Rockhold would throw it back almost as if to say, 'Nah son, THIS is how you throw it'.

This can also segment into having different animations for different move levels as well.

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The combo system is the core of the striking game, it would require a revamp once again that i doubt they would do. Im not disagreeing with you here just saying that i doubt they would re do it.

Do you agree though that fwd moving and planted strikes should have there tracking removed once cirlcing.

[RomeroXVII]

Re: How to sort power, health and rocks for UFC 4 discussion.

The combo system is the core of the striking game, it would require a revamp once again that i doubt they would do. Im not disagreeing with you here just saying that i doubt they would re do it.

Do you agree though that fwd moving and planted strikes should have there tracking removed once cirlcing.

Yes, with regards to straight strikes and circling away from a round strike.

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[Lauriedr1ver]

Re: How to sort power, health and rocks for UFC 4 discussion.

Yes, with regards to straight strikes and circling away from a round strike.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Operation Sports mobile app

Define away for me please? As in your clip Moicano circles to Stepbens power side which to me is the opposite of away.

[RomeroXVII]

Re: How to sort power, health and rocks for UFC 4 discussion.

Define away for me please? As in your clip Moicano circles to Stepbens power side which to me is the opposite of away.

....literally away from the direction that the strike is headed.

Power or side or not, it was a straight strike down the middle. Which means, it can be avoided by lateral movement a lot easier than by trying to duck it or pulling it.

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[Lauriedr1ver]

Re: How to sort power, health and rocks for UFC 4 discussion.

....literally away from the direction that the strike is headed.

Power or side or not, it was a straight strike down the middle. Which means, it can be avoided by lateral movement a lot easier than by trying to duck it or pulling it.

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Just double checking what you were meaning, I think the RT+RB movement laterally would be a good addition here.