How come you can spam sub attempts without any stamina penalty?

[BigSmoke]

Doesn't make sense to me, in real life if you get someone locked in the 4th "gate" of a triangle let's say and they escape, person attempting it would be tired af. Like really tired, legs burnt out type of thing. Same thing if you're going hard for an armbar or really any sub really that you squeeze on for a consistent amount of time, you'd be burnt out after. We see it all the time in fighting, guy goes really hard for sub first round or any round really and gasses himself out when he doesn't get it.

Iuri Alcantara vs Corey Sandhagen is a really good example of this off the top of my head, yet game doesn't reflect this at all. Also what is up with the dumb choke damage mechanic? Sorry, but never once in my life have I seen someone once again be in what Id call a "4th gate" of an arm triangle, them get out and get elbowed once in the face and lose by KO. It's not realistic at all, if that was the case Glover would've KO'd Fabio Maldonado with one elbow after a the tight arm triangle he had him in. I'd actually like to see someone pull up an example of this happening in a real mma match, bet It never has once. Lol

[GrimLeiper]

Re: How come you can spam sub attempts without any stamina penalty?

I've noticed this on two occasions, once from having it done to me. Then another time finding myself doing it (I had to finish the fight but he was escaping well).

I wasn't trying to spam subs, but if I create a stamina/grapple advantage, I'm gonna go for it.

When I was on the receiving end, they didn't really have any intentions of getting the sub. Or felt like that. Content with running down the clock...or gaming some points.


Sent from my HTC Desire 530 using Operation Sports mobile app

[LoveThisLife]

Re: How come you can spam sub attempts without any stamina penalty?

I've noticed this on two occasions, once from having it done to me. Then another time finding myself doing it (I had to finish the fight but he was escaping well).

I wasn't trying to spam subs, but if I create a stamina/grapple advantage, I'm gonna go for it.

When I was on the receiving end, they didn't really have any intentions of getting the sub. Or felt like that. Content with running down the clock...or gaming some points.


Sent from my HTC Desire 530 using Operation Sports mobile app

Papadoc does this heavy.

[LoveThisLife]

Re: How come you can spam sub attempts without any stamina penalty?

Doesn't make sense to me, in real life if you get someone locked in the 4th "gate" of a triangle let's say and they escape, person attempting it would be tired af. Like really tired, legs burnt out type of thing. Same thing if you're going hard for an armbar or really any sub really that you squeeze on for a consistent amount of time, you'd be burnt out after. We see it all the time in fighting, guy goes really hard for sub first round or any round really and gasses himself out when he doesn't get it.

Iuri Alcantara vs Corey Sandhagen is a really good example of this off the top of my head, yet game doesn't reflect this at all. Also what is up with the dumb choke damage mechanic? Sorry, but never once in my life have I seen someone once again be in what Id call a "4th gate" of an arm triangle, them get out and get elbowed once in the face and lose by KO. It's not realistic at all, if that was the case Glover would've KO'd Fabio Maldonado with one elbow after a the tight arm triangle he had him in. I'd actually like to see someone pull up an example of this happening in a real mma match, bet It never has once. Lol

Great post.

Poor judging calls in the game: "Hey done leave it to the judges just like irl"

Sub spamming/Effective nonstop feinting/ Nonstop ground fakes/ 250 strikes in one round / Cartwheel kicks of death / driving TD into the cage from the center of the octagon / strikes that didn't connect eating your block / delayed block response/ etc..: "HEY, it's just a game... we cant provide simulation here"

[Papadoc60]

Re: How come you can spam sub attempts without any stamina penalty?

You also can't gas someone out by grappling them, there are a lot of things that need to change with stamina/subs/grappling for UFC 4 honestly.


Personally I feel like you can't spam sub attempts without penalty though, because if you deny a sub attempt they lose a lot of temporary stamina and you get a surge of grapple advantage. This should be enough for you to get back to full guard, or half guard and escape whichever position they have submissions for. Many submissions also have huge penalties for early denials. Someone in this thread mentioned that attempting submissions can be exhausting, but you know what else is exhausting? Defending them. Neiman Gracie vs Ed Ruth is a good example.

There are going to be many examples for both sides honestly, just like when you look at grappling exhausting the one doing the grappling vs exhausting the one being grappled.



If you deny the side control kimura early, you get stood up immediately. You can deny the arm triangle from half guard and side saddle early and reverse your opponent. I think submissions should give points for going through the gates, but I do agree the head damage mechanic can be pretty goofy sometimes.

[Papadoc60]

Re: How come you can spam sub attempts without any stamina penalty?

Papadoc does this heavy.

Yeah, I'll attempt subs on anyone that will let me have them. It's up to the opponent to deny them, and obviously I try to finish these because I would like to win the fight but if I can't finish them I'll certainly take the head damage+points instead. It's the same thing as if your opponent doesn't hold block while you're trying to throw combos at them honestly, anyone is going to go for it.

[Good Grappler]

Re: How come you can spam sub attempts without any stamina penalty?

Lol I have no clue but damn is it OP in certain circumstances. Especially in full mount, it’s not even funny how bad this can be.

Once you get mount with a stamina advantage, you can effectively keep your opponent in a continual state of defending arm bar attempts until their stamina is empty. Simply attempting consecutive armbars will completely drain your opponent’s stamina.

Even if your opponent is escaping each sub attempt on the first or second gate, the stamina loss is massive. After 4 or 5 armbar attempts in a row, their stamina bar will be empty, and escaping is impossible.

Defensively, the options are so limited here. If you manage to pre-deny one of the sub attempts before you lose too much stamina, you might be able to save the situation. Just one successful denial can give you the GA needed to get your *** out of the situation.

But good luck doing that against someone who knows to mix up the timing of the sub attempts. Especially if they have armbars AND mounted triangles, and are able to switch up directions.

Plus most people don’t know which direction to deny armbars from mount. Doing so on reaction is almost impossible if you’re at even the slightest stamina disadvantage.

Once the process has started, it’s like inescapable. It just snowballs and snowballs. Eventually your stamina drains to a point where you’re totally ****ed for the rest of the round. Once your stamina is empty and your grapple disadvantage is maxed -100%, there’s nothing you can do unless your opponent sucks. You’re totally at their mercy for the remainder of the round, and there’s literally nothing you can do to regen stamina, even if you set your controller down.

The issue here, need it be said, is that consecutive attempts earn a stamina ADVANTAGE, and make subsequent attempts MORE easy. It should be the other way around - consecutive sub attempts should become less effective. Unless your name is Gregor Gillespie and you’re attempting arm triangles.

[BigSmoke]

Re: How come you can spam sub attempts without any stamina penalty?

Lol I have no clue but damn is it OP in certain circumstances. Especially in full mount, it’s not even funny how bad this can be.

Once you get mount with a stamina advantage, you can effectively keep your opponent in a continual state of defending arm bar attempts until their stamina is empty. Simply attempting consecutive armbars will completely drain your opponent’s stamina.

Even if your opponent is escaping each sub attempt on the first or second gate, the stamina loss is massive. After 4 or 5 armbar attempts in a row, their stamina bar will be empty, and escaping is impossible.

Defensively, the options are so limited here. If you manage to pre-deny one of the sub attempts before you lose too much stamina, you might be able to save the situation. Just one successful denial can give you the GA needed to get your *** out of the situation.

But good luck doing that against someone who knows to mix up the timing of the sub attempts. Especially if they have armbars AND mounted triangles, and are able to switch up directions.

Plus most people don’t know which direction to deny armbars from mount. Doing so on reaction is almost impossible if you’re at even the slightest stamina disadvantage.

Once the process has started, it’s like inescapable. It just snowballs and snowballs. Eventually your stamina drains to a point where you’re totally ****ed for the rest of the round. Once your stamina is empty and your grapple disadvantage is maxed -100%, there’s nothing you can do unless your opponent sucks. You’re totally at their mercy for the remainder of the round, and there’s literally nothing you can do to regen stamina, even if you set your controller down.

The issue here, need it be said, is that consecutive attempts earn a stamina ADVANTAGE, and make subsequent attempts MORE easy. It should be the other way around - consecutive sub attempts should become less effective. Unless your name is Gregor Gillespie and you’re attempting arm triangles.

Yup sub attempts don't cost enough stamina imo, that **** from mount is actually what made me write this post, only thing that genuinely frustrates me really, that and unrealistic fakes on ground that you never see in real fighting. Problem though I believe is we need a block button on the ground and clinch like Undisputed series has, and then they should make transition reversals like how blocks are now with a much shorter window to do, blocking transition shouldn't be such an acquired skill, reversals should be.

And for the love of God they need to bring back the hook transition the undisputed series had. I hate to be "that guy" but I feel like I'm at the mercy of the game when it comes to the ground, I have no control over my transitions. Where in undisputed series I could choose to slowly transition, draw my opponents reversal out, then finish my transition, or go really fast, point being I had complete and total control over the transition itself which I do not have in this game.

[RomeroXVII]

Re: How come you can spam sub attempts without any stamina penalty?

Great post.

Poor judging calls in the game: "Hey done leave it to the judges just like irl"

Sub spamming/Effective nonstop feinting/ Nonstop ground fakes/ 250 strikes in one round / Cartwheel kicks of death / driving TD into the cage from the center of the octagon / strikes that didn't connect eating your block / delayed block response/ etc..: "HEY, it's just a game... we cant provide simulation here"

My opinions on all of that:

I saw Curtis Blaydes drive Justin Willis to the cage with a TD attempt so I don't even get annoyed by it, HOWEVER I do believe there should be an INCREASED stamina cost on the offensive fighter who does the driving Takedown from that far away, with the TD Rating being a factor.

Sub Spamming is probably the dumbest thing I've heard on this forum thus far, because you can- deny subs. Plus, if you get to the second or third stage of the sub and escape, you get put from almost getting choked out to an advantageous position. I forgot which fighter was it, but it was on the most recent card and he kept on going for the d'arce choke only to end up in bad position when it failed, and ultimately ended up losing the submission.


If somebody is faking an absurd amount of times, [B]TRANSITION[B/] you're not obligated to stay there and wait for him to get to where he wants to be. Fun fact: They don't get ANY grapple advantage if they're sitting there faking and you're not buying it, I'll somebody do their millions of fakes and simply transition lmao.

I've brought up that issue with shots hitting the block that shouldn't an ABSURD amount of times here and on Twitter, so I'm glad other players are realizing it as well.


The delayed block response I think is a bug when trying to catch kicks or the bug where you get frozen when your block gets broken. THAT sucks and I would hope to get fixed.


Feints are only effective if you bite on it. Whenever I get somebody trying to 'out feint' me- I hit them!

For example, I fought a dude on stream a few days ago, and he was doing the whole jab feint to body straight or body feint nonsense. Know what I did? Immediately fired off a front kick after the jab feint, or I'll throw a knee if he got close with the body straight feint. Eventually, he stopped.


I don't think I've ever seen 250 strikes in one round, but I've definitely seen 150 and seen a dude be fine. However, it's a matter of considering what kind of strikes they're throwing.

If it's just jabs, I don't see an issue with 100 jabs a round for example, because they're simply jabs, and the counter to that, is leg kicking them as they come in. I think the real issue is when it's -

Jab Uppercut Hook, Jab Lead Hook Straight Hook, Straight Lead Hook Straight x 40 in a round and then they seem to be fine. But if you're allowing the dude to simply crush your block and head health and not offering any form of resistence I don't know what to tell you.

[Papadoc60]

Re: How come you can spam sub attempts without any stamina penalty?

My opinions on all of that:

I saw Curtis Blaydes drive Justin Willis to the cage with a TD attempt so I don't even get annoyed by it, HOWEVER I do believe there should be an INCREASED stamina cost on the offensive fighter who does the driving Takedown from that far away, with the TD Rating being a factor.

Sub Spamming is probably the dumbest thing I've heard on this forum thus far, because you can- deny subs. Plus, if you get to the second or third stage of the sub and escape, you get put from almost getting choked out to an advantageous position. I forgot which fighter was it, but it was on the most recent card and he kept on going for the d'arce choke only to end up in bad position when it failed, and ultimately ended up losing the submission.


If somebody is faking an absurd amount of times, [B]TRANSITION[B/] you're not obligated to stay there and wait for him to get to where he wants to be. Fun fact: They don't get ANY grapple advantage if they're sitting there faking and you're not buying it, I'll somebody do their millions of fakes and simply transition lmao.

I've brought up that issue with shots hitting the block that shouldn't an ABSURD amount of times here and on Twitter, so I'm glad other players are realizing it as well.


The delayed block response I think is a bug when trying to catch kicks or the bug where you get frozen when your block gets broken. THAT sucks and I would hope to get fixed.


Feints are only effective if you bite on it. Whenever I get somebody trying to 'out feint' me- I hit them!

For example, I fought a dude on stream a few days ago, and he was doing the whole jab feint to body straight or body feint nonsense. Know what I did? Immediately fired off a front kick after the jab feint, or I'll throw a knee if he got close with the body straight feint. Eventually, he stopped.


I don't think I've ever seen 250 strikes in one round, but I've definitely seen 150 and seen a dude be fine. However, it's a matter of considering what kind of strikes they're throwing.

If it's just jabs, I don't see an issue with 100 jabs a round for example, because they're simply jabs, and the counter to that, is leg kicking them as they come in. I think the real issue is when it's -

Jab Uppercut Hook, Jab Lead Hook Straight Hook, Straight Lead Hook Straight x 40 in a round and then they seem to be fine. But if you're allowing the dude to simply crush your block and head health and not offering any form of resistence I don't know what to tell you.

Any one getting "sub spammed" is probably just not good honestly. People don't want to hear that but if you watch 2 top players fight you'll be lucky to see them even get to attempt a submission because literally everything gets denied.

[BigSmoke]

Re: How come you can spam sub attempts without any stamina penalty?

Any one getting "sub spammed" is probably just not good honestly. People don't want to hear that but if you watch 2 top players fight you'll be lucky to see them even get to attempt a submission because literally everything gets denied.

My issue isn't so much spamming, it's the fact the submission system does not reflect reality at all. In real life, you don't see many guys go hard for guillotines because they risk burning their arms out and even the most well conditioned fighter can risk gassing from one sub attempt. If you get someone in let's say a "4 gate" guillotine and your squeezing for along *** time, your arms are going to be tired this is an inarguable fact. Same thing with Jacare, went hard on the sub attack first round on Gastelum, got him in 1 or 2 "4 gaters" burnt himself out and lost the fight.

Also like Good Grappler said, you can lock people in to mount with arm bar attempts that are damn near impossible to escape. There are a few prblems on the ground that definitely need to be addressed, no need to be intentionally misleading and default to "well you just must not be that good". No, not all of us are in the 1% of the top tier ground game, doesn't mean we don't understand and can't point out obviously flaws such as the really poor cardio system overall when it comes to subs. Currently as it stands, you could lock someone in to multiple "4 gaters" them get out and not have it affect your cardio at all which does not reflect a real fight at all.

[Papadoc60]

Re: How come you can spam sub attempts without any stamina penalty?

My issue isn't so much spamming, it's the fact the submission system does not reflect reality at all. In real life, you don't see many guys go hard for guillotines because they risk burning their arms out and even the most well conditioned fighter can risk gassing from one sub attempt. If you get someone in let's say a "4 gate" guillotine and your squeezing for along *** time, your arms are going to be tired this is an inarguable fact. Same thing with Jacare, went hard on the sub attack first round on Gastelum, got him in 1 or 2 "4 gaters" burnt himself out and lost the fight.

Also like Good Grappler said, you can lock people in to mount with arm bar attempts that are damn near impossible to escape. There are a few prblems on the ground that definitely need to be addressed, no need to be intentionally misleading and default to "well you just must not be that good". No, not all of us are in the 1% of the top tier ground game, doesn't mean we don't understand and can't point out obviously flaws such as the really poor cardio system overall when it comes to subs. Currently as it stands, you could lock someone in to multiple "4 gaters" them get out and not have it affect your cardio at all which does not reflect a real fight at all.

Jacare did seem to burn out from the arm bar attempt but apparently there was not proper sauna for his weight cut where he fought and he said he had dead legs because of it. I'm sure there are other examples. I'm not saying the stamina system is optimal, but that can be avoided by just practicing denying the armbar from full mount or not letting them get that stamina advantage in the first place.

That was the title of the thread, how can you spam subs without a stam penalty? There is obviously a short term stamina penalty that deters you from attempting repeated submissions, but if everyone strongly believes that progressing through gates should take away your stamina when submissions aren't even that powerful to begin with, what are we going to end up with? And do we penalize the defenders stamina for fending off constant submissions? There is just a lot to consider.

Most submissions make you lose position if you can't finish by the 3rd or 4th gate, I think that's extremely significant given how hard it can be to finish submissions with people that aren't maia or jacare.