Analysis of the Current Rock State Meta

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  • GameplayDevUFC
    Former EA Sports UFC Gameplay Developer
    • Jun 2014
    • 2830

    #1

    Analysis of the Current Rock State Meta

    There's been some discussion about the rock meta on Twitter, and I wanted to take the opportunity to present some analysis I did on a few scenarios that may give some high level players a few options to try out.

    My motivation in doing this analysis was to disprove the argument that the rock state is a 25/25/25/25 dice roll.

    The first rebuttal is an obvious one. If you are rocked with a relatively healthy chin and/or max health, or you were rocked with a relatively low stun value, the rock state will not last very long and you are probably in a position where you don't need to use any defensive strategies to survive. You can likely just turtle up and eat the block break and still survive.

    Deeper into a fight when you've taken some damage, this may not hold true. There is certainly a skill element in reading the scenario, and deciding whether or not you need to take the chance of using head movement to survive, at the risk of getting caught and having the fight end.

    Now, lets assume you're in a position where a block break would end the fight. What options are available to you?

    The option most people are aware of is to read the combo your opponent is throwing, and anticipate a particular strike arc and use head movement to avoid it.

    In all but the most dire of situations, this will likely mean reading a four strike combo and making use of head movement on the second, third or fourth strike before the block breaks.

    The advantage of waiting to the fourth strike is that you've bought yourself time to recover before making your move, so that if you guess right you are more likely to survive.

    The disadvantage is that you will likely eat damage due to partial block bleed through along the way to the fourth strike.

    Again, reading the situation your are in will be critical to survival.

    But what if you don't want to rely on guessing and reading your opponent's patterns? What if your opponent is really good at mixing up block break combos and there is nothing to read?

    Are you really just left with a guessing game?

    My argument is no. There is an option that removes guess work and relies on fast reactions. It's by no means easy, but I believe it to be theoretically viable.

    To understand it, lets look at damage breakdown in several scenarios.

    Using a McGregor mirror match, let's look at the damage done using a lead head kick from punch range.



    As you can see, this particular kick from this particular range does 20 damage.

    Now let's look at the damage done when you sway back as the kick lands.



    In this case, swaying back increases the range, making the kick deal 30 damage.

    Now, what happens if you back sway and then chain to a side sway away from the kick at the last second?



    In this case, the kick only does 9 damage.

    That's more than a 60% reduction in damage. When your goal is survival, that's a pretty good outcome.

    Let's try another scenario. What if you sway to one side, then sway to the opposite side just before the kick lands?



    In this case, the kick does damage of 13.

    So what does this have to do with the rock state?

    What this allows you to do, is sway mid combo in anticipation of the most likely strike to come out next, and then re-actively sway away if you're wrong and something else comes out.

    Of course this approach would only be successful if you have enough time to react to the animation and sway in the correct direction.

    Fortunately, the heaviest strikes in the game are also the longest.

    Head kicks and overhand punches mid combo after a successful block all give more than a 22 frame window to enter the sway and receive damage mitigation.

    Although fast, this is within the range considered reactable based on tuning done for the grappling game in UFC 2. Your mileage may vary once online latency is thrown into the mix.

    So with the damage properties understood, and if you are willing to accept that this technique falls within reaction time thresholds, the next important part is understanding the combo tree.

    If you back sway the third strike, you will avoid hooks and uppercuts no matter what. If you are in kick range you will avoid straight punches but not kicks. If you are in punch range you'll get hit by both head kicks and forward moving straight punches. And straight punches are too fast to react to.

    The back sway carries with it vulnerability to straight punches, so that's important to be aware of. Getting caught with a jab while back swaying does 10 damage, so not much worse than a mitigated head kick.

    But a straight punch will do almost the same amount as a block broken head kick, so you cannot afford to get hit with that.

    So the back sway to side sway strategy is only appropriate in situations where you know you won't get hit by a straight on the next strike. Either because of range, or because that last strike thrown in the combo was with the back hand.

    By contrast, the side sway strategy can be used if you know the only strikes that will come out next come from the side you are swaying away from OR a strike that is slow enough to react to.

    The one branch of the combo tree that really messes with this strategy is the jab to lead/back hook.

    Once a jab has been successfully blocked, neither the back sway to side sway or side sway to side sway strategy will keep you safe from a jab to rear hook or jab to lead hook mix up. You always face a 50/50 chance of swaying into a hook if your opponent chooses that particular mix up.

    Without fully exploring all options in the combo tree, I feel it's safe to assume that there is a set of combos that could force your opponent into this dilema after a fair bit of block breakdown and/or bleedthrough before reaching the fully broken state.

    Given the current state of the meta, I feel the strategies above are viable but must be executed before a full block break on a strike that is not a jab.

    The viability of the above strategies also degrade as the fighters chin, long term health and long term block are reduced later in a fight.

    In my analysis, I was hoping to find a viable survival option through any branch of the combo tree that did not rely on guess work, but this dilemma with the jab to lead/back hook mixup prevented that.

    I may have some updated analysis in the future to help people deal with that issue as I feel it's really the only scenario that partially validates the complaints that the rock meta is a dice roll.

    Stay tuned.

    Until then, I hope the information provided here gives people some new strategies to try out in their efforts to survive the rocked state.
  • johnmangala
    MVP
    • Apr 2016
    • 4525

    #2
    Re: Analysis of the Current Rock State Meta

    What do minor back and forward lunges dodge?

    If back minor lunges can dodge hooks then we'd have more leeway during rock states... Rock states BTW are way too frequent in this game.

    Comment

    • johnmangala
      MVP
      • Apr 2016
      • 4525

      #3
      Re: Analysis of the Current Rock State Meta

      Here's a famous example of minor back and forth lunges dodging hooks (in and out movement):

      If the minor lunges dodged hooks, then we could chain lunges in the same way.. but it would be an even safer option than sways because you can block and lunge completely at the same time.

      (maybe minor lunges move you one range whereas the major lunge two ranges)

      Comment

      • GameplayDevUFC
        Former EA Sports UFC Gameplay Developer
        • Jun 2014
        • 2830

        #4
        Re: Analysis of the Current Rock State Meta

        Originally posted by johnmangala
        Here's a famous example of minor back and forth lunges dodging hooks (in and out movement):

        If the minor lunges dodged hooks, then we could chain lunges in the same way.. but it would be an even safer option than sways because you can block and lunge completely at the same time.

        (maybe minor lunges move you one range whereas the major lunge two ranges)
        Yup, that's how it works right now.

        Comment

        • johnmangala
          MVP
          • Apr 2016
          • 4525

          #5
          Re: Analysis of the Current Rock State Meta

          Originally posted by GameplayDevUFC
          Yup, that's how it works right now.
          Good to hear officially. However in my experience minor back lunges are relatively unreliable compared to the minor side lunges which work very well against straight strikes.

          Is there any details on the minor linear lunges that would make them more effective?

          Minor lunges are probably the least used defensive tool by the majority, anything that sheds light on it's proper context will help people better deal with pressure.

          Comment

          • Evil97
            MVP
            • Apr 2016
            • 1099

            #6
            Re: Analysis of the Current Rock State Meta

            Edit: Just realized what you were talking about exactly. Not a dice role on the types of rocks, but a dice roll on surviving. I would call that more of a 50/50 guess scenario. I agree with you that there are ways to mitigate that ratio with good reaction, knowledge, and reads.
            Last edited by Evil97; 04-11-2019, 04:03 PM.

            Comment

            • ZombieRommel
              EA Game Changer
              • Apr 2016
              • 659

              #7
              Re: Analysis of the Current Rock State Meta

              Thanks for the writeup.

              In the back slip vs head kick scenario, could the fighter slip forward to completely dodge the blow? Or would the frames not allow this?

              Similar for if we slip to the wrong side of an overhand. Can we then slip to the opposite side (or duck) and avoid the blow or is our only option mitigation at that point?

              I do think that blocking + slipping would help to mitigate some of these complaints. From a logic standpoint, the ability to lunge + block but NOT slip + block is pretty strange. And slip + block could probably be balanced out in other ways.

              At the end of the day, I think people are looking for low-risk strategies, which the game is sometimes in short supply on - both offensively and defensively. There is a strong element of commitment throughout the game. For example, I mentioned to Yves recently that we cannot slip immediately after feinting, which would in theory be a nice way to draw out a slip-straight counter from someone and then slip them. But instead we have to commit to a strike off the feint, which is not low-risk.

              The example you gave here of changing a back slip into a side slip does show that some "partial commitment" strategies do work and probably haven't all been uncovered - but I think that's probably the central crux of most people's complaints on twitter - a relatively low number of small risk / small commitment strategies.

              I would love to discover more, and it's really interesting for me to read these sorts of developer insights, where you are stepping in to highlight strategies that the community hasn't really experimented with, this deep into the game's life cycle. I sometimes wonder how much there is, from a mechanics standpoint, that people could be doing in the game but aren't (at a high level).
              Last edited by ZombieRommel; 04-11-2019, 04:17 PM.
              ZombieRommel on YouTube - UFC3 coverage has begun!

              Comment

              • bmlimo
                MVP
                • Apr 2016
                • 1123

                #8
                Re: Analysis of the Current Rock State Meta

                The other problem is the strategy that people use to archive the rock, the block break meta is real ... so it’s inevitable they put you in situations that you have to move your head and make you get caught by a hook or upper

                Comment

                • 1212headkick
                  Banned
                  • Mar 2018
                  • 1823

                  #9
                  Re: Analysis of the Current Rock State Meta

                  There needs to be no hit stun when walking backwards or forward while blocking. Really the solution is no stiff arm retreat tax or parries. People can wing 112 an entire fight and you can use the tools and it wont work. We need freeflowing combos to be less predictable. Also body shots need stopping power

                  Comment

                  • Balboa
                    Rookie
                    • Mar 2017
                    • 52

                    #10
                    Re: Analysis of the Current Rock State Meta

                    Thanks for the Info, looks like its a 50/50 Guess on the slip

                    I personally still feel body work dont pay off in a 3 round fight. The body strikes are slow and have a really high risk of
                    1. Getting hit with a uppercut for attempting body Punches
                    2. Getting you leg kicks caught and Punished (knee catches too even tho this has only happened a handful off times in history)

                    Then after like maybe 30 Clean body strikes, (and my opponent threw all head strikes (mostly blocked))

                    We have the same stamina but his body health is slightly lower, but my head health is lower. (And i threw 60 strikes and my opponent threw 140 in RD one
                    I landed 18 clean body strikes he landed 24 but no body strikes YET we have the same stamina)

                    The purpose of working the body is to get a advantage in the later rounds, but in 3 round fights your way better off throwing Head strikes Blocked or landed (but not whiffs) Because the body strike just dont pay off #Proper

                    anyone else?

                    Comment

                    • 1212headkick
                      Banned
                      • Mar 2018
                      • 1823

                      #11
                      Re: Analysis of the Current Rock State Meta

                      Originally posted by Balboa
                      Thanks for the Info, looks like its a 50/50 Guess on the slip

                      I personally still feel body work dont pay off in a 3 round fight. The body strikes are slow and have a really high risk of
                      1. Getting hit with a uppercut for attempting body Punches
                      2. Getting you leg kicks caught and Punished (knee catches too even tho this has only happened a handful off times in history)

                      Then after like maybe 30 Clean body strikes, (and my opponent threw all head strikes (mostly blocked))

                      We have the same stamina but his body health is slightly lower, but my head health is lower. (And i threw 60 strikes and my opponent threw 140 in RD one
                      I landed 18 clean body strikes he landed 24 but no body strikes YET we have the same stamina)

                      The purpose of working the body is to get a advantage in the later rounds, but in 3 round fights your way better off throwing Head strikes Blocked or landed (but not whiffs) Because the body strike just dont pay off #Proper

                      anyone else?
                      Really that’s a large factor to knee spam and block break spam. The current meta we have now is a direct result of what happened to body punches. Can’t kill the body and the head will die if body hooks are slow don’t stop forward aggression unless it’s a easily side stepped front kick and an insta rock for working the body is nowhere near fair a trade off

                      Comment

                      • RomeroXVII
                        MVP
                        • May 2018
                        • 1663

                        #12
                        Re: Analysis of the Current Rock State Meta

                        Originally posted by Balboa
                        Thanks for the Info, looks like its a 50/50 Guess on the slip

                        I personally still feel body work dont pay off in a 3 round fight. The body strikes are slow and have a really high risk of
                        1. Getting hit with a uppercut for attempting body Punches
                        2. Getting you leg kicks caught and Punished (knee catches too even tho this has only happened a handful off times in history)

                        Then after like maybe 30 Clean body strikes, (and my opponent threw all head strikes (mostly blocked))

                        We have the same stamina but his body health is slightly lower, but my head health is lower. (And i threw 60 strikes and my opponent threw 140 in RD one
                        I landed 18 clean body strikes he landed 24 but no body strikes YET we have the same stamina)

                        The purpose of working the body is to get a advantage in the later rounds, but in 3 round fights your way better off throwing Head strikes Blocked or landed (but not whiffs) Because the body strike just dont pay off #Proper

                        anyone else?

                        Disagree. Body strikes pay off dividends in even three round fights, because then when you land those strikes when they're in increased vulnerability, they're more than skewed.

                        There's an X amount of strikes it takes to get the body health down to a specific amount to where it flashes, the same with leg kicks with specific fighters if you do certain things, once you figure that out, it's gamechanging.
                        EA Sports UFC GameChanger
                        PSN: RomeroXVII
                        ESFL UFC 4 PS4 Champion
                        E-Sports Summer Series EA UFC Champion (Season 1)
                        ESFL UFC 4 Las Vegas 2022 World Champion

                        Comment

                        • Phillyboi207
                          Banned
                          • Apr 2012
                          • 3159

                          #13
                          Re: Analysis of the Current Rock State Meta

                          Originally posted by RomeroXVII
                          Disagree. Body strikes pay off dividends in even three round fights, because then when you land those strikes when they're in increased vulnerability, they're more than skewed.

                          There's an X amount of strikes it takes to get the body health down to a specific amount to where it flashes, the same with leg kicks with specific fighters if you do certain things, once you figure that out, it's gamechanging.
                          Wait how is that possible to know?

                          Wouldnt it vary depending on body healt. toughness and stamina when the strike lands

                          Comment

                          • RomeroXVII
                            MVP
                            • May 2018
                            • 1663

                            #14
                            Re: Analysis of the Current Rock State Meta

                            Originally posted by Phillyboi207
                            Wait how is that possible to know?

                            Wouldnt it vary depending on body healt. toughness and stamina when the strike lands
                            Okay, I'll give up one secret. If I land 8-10 clean push leg kicks with Jose Aldo, doesn't matter if it's Conor McGregor or Frankie Edgar, their leg health is guaranteed to at least be blinking.

                            Same with Barao, same with Till, etc

                            Sent from my SM-G965U using Operation Sports mobile app
                            Last edited by RomeroXVII; 04-11-2019, 10:15 PM.
                            EA Sports UFC GameChanger
                            PSN: RomeroXVII
                            ESFL UFC 4 PS4 Champion
                            E-Sports Summer Series EA UFC Champion (Season 1)
                            ESFL UFC 4 Las Vegas 2022 World Champion

                            Comment

                            • Balboa
                              Rookie
                              • Mar 2017
                              • 52

                              #15
                              Re: Analysis of the Current Rock State Meta

                              Originally posted by RomeroXVII
                              Disagree. Body strikes pay off dividends in even three round fights, because then when you land those strikes when they're in increased vulnerability, they're more than skewed.

                              There's an X amount of strikes it takes to get the body health down to a specific amount to where it flashes, the same with leg kicks with specific fighters if you do certain things, once you figure that out, it's gamechanging.
                              I done this is practice mode many times, and while I have been working the body since release, I find the AMOUNT of body strikes needed to get the "stamina" advantage (not health) in 3 rds (must have to land about 40) just isnt worth it, as soon as i started Mashing head combos only (which are so much faster). I have won almost every fight. Its so much easier to block break (which is only in gameland) than to keep getting caught going for the body. I do still mix it up a little to get my opponent body blocking so my 6 strike combos will break his block or land, but if im landing Blocked head shots it really hurts the opponent in the Long run, way more than Weak slow body strikes, Ever see a boxer hit that heavy bag. its 4 times the speed of our current body strikes. AND you should be able to throw a Double hook to one side, it was tyson go to move "Body hooks (to one side) then Uppercut"
                              or Body hook , head hook" and it was fast. no wind ups.

                              Comment

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