Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

[1212headkick]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

I mean it's really this easy to read, read the ****ing threads and the comments, it's not hard at all. Thanks Aholbert.

I did read those threads. In every thread movement is complained about. The people who vouged for pressure all got down votes. Im one of the few comp players who agree. Dont bite the hand that feeds you.

[aholbert32]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

I thought ALOT of comp players wanted movement changes. Now you are one of the “few”? What happened to the rest of y’all?


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[Lauriedr1ver]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

I did read those threads. In every thread movement is complained about. The people who vouged for pressure all got down votes. Im one of the few comp players who agree. Dont bite the hand that feeds you.

Eh hahahahahaha, just cause im not a sweat like you doesnt mean anything. I literally told you an example of the contrary to what you said so your clearly bull****ting.

[1212headkick]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

I thought ALOT of comp players wanted movement changes. Now you are one of the “few”? What happened to the rest of y’all?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Of the few here.

[ZombieRommel]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

John you keep repeating yourself and ignoring any evidence given to you.

We’ve already had big discussions vs the comp crowd where they made it clear they dont want a lot of defensive tools because they want the meta to be pressure centric.

If you want proof of how they feel go join their discord and ask them yourself.

Repeating your arguments to us doesnt do anything. You just make it harder to take anything you post serious which is a shame because you do come up with some good ideas.

Just to reiterate, try your luck presenting your idea in the discord chat. You’ll get all the rebuttals you could possibly hope for.

Who exactly wants the meta to be pressure-centric? Like can you give me names? And what is their reasoning?

I'm a comp player, so is ZHunter & Kenetic, and I would argue that none of us want the game to be pressure-centric.

We (or at least I) do feel that the game right now punishes aggression hard but allows and even encourages running on a mechanical level.

I prefer to focus ONLY on mechanics, because I think once people start making philosophical arguments about how powerful aggression vs defense is in the game, the discussion always heads into the weeds.

When making arguments, we MUST make reference to the mechanics and whether or not they allow us to do something AT ALL. Not just how easy one thing is to do vs another (I hear a lot of people say that pressure is easier than defense).

As of right now, and I've said this before, which is why I've hesitated to join this thread, the facts are:

- There is a huge vulnerability penalty for throwing forward moving strikes
- There is a huge frame startup penalty for throwing forward moving strikes
- There is a large frame recovery penalty for throwing forward moving strikes
- There is a block meter penalty for absorbing strikes while moving forward
- Forward-moving combos stop linking after two hits
- Forward pressure strings can be major-lunged for positional reset
- Planted strikes enjoy greater startup speed
- Planted strikes recover quicker
- Planted strikes enjoy less vulnerability
- Planted strikes can be linked from 4-6 hits without pause
- Walking away backwards and diagonally causes game engine issues that make many forward-moving strikes whiff & bounce off ("forcefield")
- There exists NO RELIABLE WAY to cut off the cage purely with movement due to the current locomotion speeds of the fighters + physics (what I mean is the Darren Till / Conor style of cage cutting where they head off the fighter with lateral movement, WITHOUT needing to throw strikes - this doesn't exist in the game)

Anyone who wants to argue that we need more defensive tools MUST address the existing mechanics that are designed to punish aggression and favor running / planting.

I truly don't think that most GOOD top level players want a game that favors aggression. Everyone I talk to wants a game where as many strategies are viable as possible, but when you examine the game purely from a mechanics perspective, it's very difficult to NOT conclude that the game favors running & planting over aggression right now.

Again, MECHANICS. I don't care to get into the weeds with people who don't address the existing mechanics.

[johnmangala]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

Why are running and planting conflated here? Aggressive fighters can plant just as much as someone who 'runs'.

Planting is being stationary... the opposite of 'running'/movement. In fact good pressure/aggressive fighters in game and reality pressure not only with strikes but with movement. They can cage you in then plant and rip as someone tries to move in any direction.

[Lauriedr1ver]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

Who exactly wants the meta to be pressure-centric? Like can you give me names? And what is their reasoning?

I'm a comp player, so is ZHunter & Kenetic, and I would argue that none of us want the game to be pressure-centric.

We (or at least I) do feel that the game right now punishes aggression hard but allows and even encourages running on a mechanical level.

I prefer to focus ONLY on mechanics, because I think once people start making philosophical arguments about how powerful aggression vs defense is in the game, the discussion always heads into the weeds.

When making arguments, we MUST make reference to the mechanics and whether or not they allow us to do something AT ALL. Not just how easy one thing is to do vs another (I hear a lot of people say that pressure is easier than defense).

As of right now, and I've said this before, which is why I've hesitated to join this thread, the facts are:

- There is a huge vulnerability penalty for throwing forward moving strikes
- There is a huge frame startup penalty for throwing forward moving strikes
- There is a large frame recovery penalty for throwing forward moving strikes
- There is a block meter penalty for absorbing strikes while moving forward
- Forward-moving combos stop linking after two hits
- Forward pressure strings can be major-lunged for positional reset
- Planted strikes enjoy greater startup speed
- Planted strikes recover quicker
- Planted strikes enjoy less vulnerability
- Planted strikes can be linked from 4-6 hits without pause
- Walking away backwards and diagonally causes game engine issues that make many forward-moving strikes whiff & bounce off ("forcefield")
- There exists NO RELIABLE WAY to cut off the cage purely with movement due to the current locomotion speeds of the fighters + physics (what I mean is the Darren Till / Conor style of cage cutting where they head off the fighter with lateral movement, WITHOUT needing to throw strikes - this doesn't exist in the game)

Anyone who wants to argue that we need more defensive tools MUST address the existing mechanics that are designed to punish aggression and favor running / planting.

I truly don't think that most GOOD top level players want a game that favors aggression. Everyone I talk to wants a game where as many strategies are viable as possible, but when you examine the game purely from a mechanics perspective, it's very difficult to NOT conclude that the game favors running & planting over aggression right now.

Again, MECHANICS. I don't care to get into the weeds with people who don't address the existing mechanics.

Thank you for this, 1212 and John is this a good enough example for you.

[1212headkick]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

Who exactly wants the meta to be pressure-centric? Like can you give me names? And what is their reasoning?

I'm a comp player, so is ZHunter & Kenetic, and I would argue that none of us want the game to be pressure-centric.

We (or at least I) do feel that the game right now punishes aggression hard but allows and even encourages running on a mechanical level.

I prefer to focus ONLY on mechanics, because I think once people start making philosophical arguments about how powerful aggression vs defense is in the game, the discussion always heads into the weeds.

When making arguments, we MUST make reference to the mechanics and whether or not they allow us to do something AT ALL. Not just how easy one thing is to do vs another (I hear a lot of people say that pressure is easier than defense).

As of right now, and I've said this before, which is why I've hesitated to join this thread, the facts are:

- There is a huge vulnerability penalty for throwing forward moving strikes
- There is a huge frame startup penalty for throwing forward moving strikes
- There is a large frame recovery penalty for throwing forward moving strikes
- There is a block meter penalty for absorbing strikes while moving forward
- Forward-moving combos stop linking after two hits
- Forward pressure strings can be major-lunged for positional reset
- Planted strikes enjoy greater startup speed
- Planted strikes recover quicker
- Planted strikes enjoy less vulnerability
- Planted strikes can be linked from 4-6 hits without pause
- Walking away backwards and diagonally causes game engine issues that make many forward-moving strikes whiff & bounce off ("forcefield")
- There exists NO RELIABLE WAY to cut off the cage purely with movement due to the current locomotion speeds of the fighters + physics (what I mean is the Darren Till / Conor style of cage cutting where they head off the fighter with lateral movement, WITHOUT needing to throw strikes - this doesn't exist in the game)

Anyone who wants to argue that we need more defensive tools MUST address the existing mechanics that are designed to punish aggression and favor running / planting.

I truly don't think that most GOOD top level players want a game that favors aggression. Everyone I talk to wants a game where as many strategies are viable as possible, but when you examine the game purely from a mechanics perspective, it's very difficult to NOT conclude that the game favors running & planting over aggression right now.

Again, MECHANICS. I don't care to get into the weeds with people who don't address the existing mechanics.

Definitely not true. If you spam the jab and just stay in the center and counter circle theyre not getting off the cage plus we cant laterally use movement as defense. Thats when you see how bad it is. And its easy to get a rock in this game. Everyone usually gets rocked in the first round. And once they respect the jab thats gg. Makes it easy to pressure if you use the jab since they have low stamina floor and definitely get your opponent to expose themselves to vulnerability. If theyre back is to the fence you have the whole octagon to move back while they have no room to move and their strikes do less damage off the cage.

If theyre spamming lunges you can just throw hooks. The stand up is rock paper scissors. Its not about picking your shots. The short comings of outside fighting are far underpowered to pressure. Your not punished for spamming 250 strikes a round so long as you hit the block. Forward vulnerability favors the pressure fighter because they can only throw forward moving strikes when theyre backs against the cage.

I challenge anyone here to try and fight warrior 472 my good friend and tell me im lying. Go fight dj legend and tell me pressure doesnt need a nerf and i say that with the highest respect for him.

Martial did a video with gaethje and that video shows that most players whos gameplan isnt to grapple struggle with pressure. When theyre back is to the fence plant and move the stick up and down. Vulnerability favors the pressure fighter because it directly punishes those trying to move out of the way. You think this game is in a good place? Hit up sherdog and reddit
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/e...3952789/page-4

[TheShizNo1]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

Thank you for this, 1212 and John is this a good enough example for you.

Nope...

Sent from my SM-G950U using Operation Sports mobile app

[1212headkick]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

To be honest i probably hold guinness book of world records for most days played(130) to say i dont know what im talking about would be a mistake. Its not enough because the counter arguments are weak and have absolutely no ground to stand on. Jab pressuring is king. You dont gotta like me but that doesnt change how much game knowledge i have or my skill level and the validity of what I and most of the community are saying.

[bmlimo]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

Who exactly wants the meta to be pressure-centric? Like can you give me names? And what is their reasoning?

I'm a comp player, so is ZHunter & Kenetic, and I would argue that none of us want the game to be pressure-centric.

We (or at least I) do feel that the game right now punishes aggression hard but allows and even encourages running on a mechanical level.

I prefer to focus ONLY on mechanics, because I think once people start making philosophical arguments about how powerful aggression vs defense is in the game, the discussion always heads into the weeds.

When making arguments, we MUST make reference to the mechanics and whether or not they allow us to do something AT ALL. Not just how easy one thing is to do vs another (I hear a lot of people say that pressure is easier than defense).

As of right now, and I've said this before, which is why I've hesitated to join this thread, the facts are:

- There is a huge vulnerability penalty for throwing forward moving strikes
- There is a huge frame startup penalty for throwing forward moving strikes
- There is a large frame recovery penalty for throwing forward moving strikes
- There is a block meter penalty for absorbing strikes while moving forward
- Forward-moving combos stop linking after two hits
- Forward pressure strings can be major-lunged for positional reset
- Planted strikes enjoy greater startup speed
- Planted strikes recover quicker
- Planted strikes enjoy less vulnerability
- Planted strikes can be linked from 4-6 hits without pause
- Walking away backwards and diagonally causes game engine issues that make many forward-moving strikes whiff & bounce off ("forcefield")
- There exists NO RELIABLE WAY to cut off the cage purely with movement due to the current locomotion speeds of the fighters + physics (what I mean is the Darren Till / Conor style of cage cutting where they head off the fighter with lateral movement, WITHOUT needing to throw strikes - this doesn't exist in the game)

Anyone who wants to argue that we need more defensive tools MUST address the existing mechanics that are designed to punish aggression and favor running / planting.

I truly don't think that most GOOD top level players want a game that favors aggression. Everyone I talk to wants a game where as many strategies are viable as possible, but when you examine the game purely from a mechanics perspective, it's very difficult to NOT conclude that the game favors running & planting over aggression right now.

Again, MECHANICS. I don't care to get into the weeds with people who don't address the existing mechanics.

Thanks for the post zombie, mechanics don’t explain what is pressure, pressure isn’t just strike coming foward, it helps a lot but it’s just one tool, pressure is keep striking in a high output don’t letting your opponent a space to breath and this game allow this tactic because you can do this for rounds and even drain your opponent stamina more than yours doing that, you are beeing extremely simplistic my friend. Everyone here knows that the meta in this game is blockbreak you see people arguing that a player is punching the block trying to blast it

[tomitomitomi]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

To be honest i probably hold guinness book of world records for most days played(130) to say i dont know what im talking about would be a mistake. Its not enough because the counter arguments are weak and have absolutely no ground to stand on. Jab pressuring is king. You dont gotta like me but that doesnt change how much game knowledge i have or my skill level and the validity of what I and most of the community are saying.

Sorry mate you gotta do better than "just trust me".

[1212headkick]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

Sorry mate you gotta do better than "just trust me".

Everything i said was rooted in fact. Your one liners do not equal a solid argument. Nice avoidance technique not quoting my full argument

[Phillyboi207]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

Who exactly wants the meta to be pressure-centric? Like can you give me names? And what is their reasoning?

I'm a comp player, so is ZHunter & Kenetic, and I would argue that none of us want the game to be pressure-centric.

We (or at least I) do feel that the game right now punishes aggression hard but allows and even encourages running on a mechanical level.

Anyone who wants to argue that we need more defensive tools MUST address the existing mechanics that are designed to punish aggression and favor running / planting.

I truly don't think that most GOOD top level players want a game that favors aggression. Everyone I talk to wants a game where as many strategies are viable as possible, but when you examine the game purely from a mechanics perspective, it's very difficult to NOT conclude that the game favors running & planting over aggression right now.

Again, MECHANICS. I don't care to get into the weeds with people who don't address the existing mechanics.

Wow I did not expect a response from one of y’all, awesome lol.

So I can easily say Kenetic is a name that I remember directly saying that he wants a fast paced, high volume game because he considers outside fighting boring.

You’ve made the argument several times about being afraid of the game’s meta catering defense and were against buffs to outside fighting.

Zhunter made a similar argument but I remember him acknowledging that the Devs could potentially buff offense and defense. His main argument then became that the Devs likely wouldnt change the game as much. There were a couple other dudes that were Kenetic groupies chiming in about their disdain for “runners” but I cant remember their names.

Now we can discuss mechanics.

I agree with everything you said. But here’s my counter points.

-Stamina for volume strikers is too forgiving against block. You’re able to pressure with volume using most characters
-Even if you do lower their stamina people with lower stamina still maintain a lot of speed and power for combos
-The distance management in the game is wonky and you have added steps to strikes which make it easier to maintain a closer range. In addition to that you have strikes that will zoom fighters into range to land them.
-The circling also applies to people attempting to fight on the outside. You either have to commit to a lunge or you’re forced to strike to circle off the cage
-Forward moving jab is relatively safe. Also you can feint it and hard combo into pretty much everything.
-Unrealistic chin strength allows pressure guys to come forward without worrying too much about being KO’d

The walking diagonally/camera angle stuff is a serious issue that is hopefully addressed for UFC4.

Another thing is I’m not a fan of the image you’re attempting to convey with the mechanics. Outside fighting isnt based just on planted strikes, and pressure fighting (at higher levels) isnt just throwing forward moving combos. Generally there’s more in/out movement to work your opponent toward the cage. I’ve watched plenty of ESFL fights which according to most comp guys is the highest level of play. The meta is not based on a “hit and move” strategy which also paints the picture the meta is about aggression.

But here’s the thing. We’re talking about UFC4 at this point. If you’re for all styles being viable then we should all be on the same page in regard to buffing both movement and effective cage cutting (which this thread’s OP does). Things like a weakened block with an added parry(similar to block counters) would help both sides as well. I’m not asking for only buffs to defense and outside fighting.

[Lauriedr1ver]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

Wow I did not expect a response from one of y’all, awesome lol.

So I can easily say Kenetic is a name that I remember directly saying that he wants a fast paced, high volume game because he considers outside fighting boring.

You’ve made the argument several times about being afraid of the game’s meta catering defense and were against buffs to outside fighting.

Zhunter made a similar argument but I remember him acknowledging that the Devs could potentially buff offense and defense. His main argument then became that the Devs likely wouldnt change the game as much. There were a couple other dudes that were Kenetic groupies chiming in about their disdain for “runners” but I cant remember their names.

Now we can discuss mechanics.

I agree with everything you said. But here’s my counter points.

-Stamina for volume strikers is too forgiving against block. You’re able to pressure with volume using most characters
-The distance management in the game is wonky and you have added steps to strikes which make it easier to maintain a closer range. In addition to that you have strikes that will zoom fighters into range to land them.
-The circling also applies to people attempting to fight on the outside. You either have to commit to a lunge or you’re forced to strike to circle off the cage
-Forward moving jab is relatively safe. Also you can feint it and hard combo into pretty much everything.
-Unrealistic chin strength allows pressure guys to come forward without worrying too much about being KO’d

The walking diagonally/camera angle stuff is a serious issue that is hopefully addressed for UFC4.

Another thing is I’m not a fan of the image you’re attempting to convey with the mechanics. Outside fighting isnt based just on planted strikes, and pressure fighting (at higher levels) isnt just throwing forward moving combos. Generally there’s more in/out movement to work your opponent toward the cage. I’ve watched plenty of ESFL fights which according to most comp guys is the highest level of play. The meta is not based on a “hit and move” strategy which also paints the picture the meta is about aggression.

But here’s the thing. We’re talking about UFC4 at this point. If you’re for all styles being viable then we should all be on the same page in regard to buffing both movement and effective cage cutting (which this thread’s OP does). Things like a weakened block with an added parry(similar to block counters) would help both sides as well. I’m not asking for only buffs to defense and outside fighting.

Is this enough to believe us yet 1212 and john