Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

[1212headkick]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

Is this enough to believe us yet 1212 and john

Please keep my name out of your mouth. Thanks

[Lauriedr1ver]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

Please keep my name out of your mouth. Thanks

No thanks, would rather have you seeing the truth. I'm not the enemy here.

Your welcome.

[TheShizNo1]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

Please keep my name out of your mouth. Thanks

Can we not get this petty?

Sent from my SM-G950U using Operation Sports mobile app

[aholbert32]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

To be honest i probably hold guinness book of world records for most days played(130) to say i dont know what im talking about would be a mistake. Its not enough because the counter arguments are weak and have absolutely no ground to stand on. Jab pressuring is king. You dont gotta like me but that doesnt change how much game knowledge i have or my skill level and the validity of what I and most of the community are saying.

No offense but some of the GCs have played way more than 130 days. The game has been out for around 500 days.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[1212headkick]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

No offense but some of the GCs have played way more than 130 days. The game has been out for around 500 days.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Who? Screenshots? They have 3300 hrs in the game? I know for a fact i have more than most people even commp players like spider and pryoxis and zhunter(no disrespect to him)

[ZombieRommel]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

Thanks for the post zombie, mechanics don’t explain what is pressure, pressure isn’t just strike coming foward, it helps a lot but it’s just one tool, pressure is keep striking in a high output don’t letting your opponent a space to breath and this game allow this tactic because you can do this for rounds and even drain your opponent stamina more than yours doing that, you are beeing extremely simplistic my friend. Everyone here knows that the meta in this game is blockbreak you see people arguing that a player is punching the block trying to blast it

To address you here (and to an extent 1212Headkick), jab pressure in the game is easily countered with simple slip straights. Players can also duck it (given the fighter is short enough) or lunge it. But in a high level match, jab spam is easily beaten by the slip straight.

I recommend looking up Pryoxis. Pry is a player who actually uses all of the defensive tools available to him, and the result is that attacking him (especially to his head) is extremely dangerous, because it will leave you open to huge stamina loss & counters.

Wow I did not expect a response from one of y’all, awesome lol.

So I can easily say Kenetic is a name that I remember directly saying that he wants a fast paced, high volume game because he considers outside fighting boring.

You’ve made the argument several times about being afraid of the game’s meta catering defense and were against buffs to outside fighting.

Zhunter made a similar argument but I remember him acknowledging that the Devs could potentially buff offense and defense. His main argument then became that the Devs likely wouldnt change the game as much. There were a couple other dudes that were Kenetic groupies chiming in about their disdain for “runners” but I cant remember their names.

Now we can discuss mechanics.

I agree with everything you said. But here’s my counter points.

-Stamina for volume strikers is too forgiving against block. You’re able to pressure with volume using most characters
-The distance management in the game is wonky and you have added steps to strikes which make it easier to maintain a closer range. In addition to that you have strikes that will zoom fighters into range to land them.
-The circling also applies to people attempting to fight on the outside. You either have to commit to a lunge or you’re forced to strike to circle off the cage
-Forward moving jab is relatively safe. Also you can feint it and hard combo into pretty much everything.
-Unrealistic chin strength allows pressure guys to come forward without worrying too much about being KO’d

The walking diagonally/camera angle stuff is a serious issue that is hopefully addressed for UFC4.

Another thing is I’m not a fan of the image you’re attempting to convey with the mechanics. Outside fighting isnt based just on planted strikes, and pressure fighting (at higher levels) isnt just throwing forward moving combos. Generally there’s more in/out movement to work your opponent toward the cage. I’ve watched plenty of ESFL fights which according to most comp guys is the highest level of play. The meta is not based on a “hit and move” strategy which also paints the picture the meta is about aggression.

But here’s the thing. We’re talking about UFC4 at this point. If you’re for all styles being viable then we should all be on the same page in regard to buffing both movement and effective cage cutting (which this thread’s OP does). Things like a weakened block with an added parry(similar to block counters) would help both sides as well. I’m not asking for only buffs to defense and outside fighting.

I haven't been against buffs to outside fighting. I argued in favor of reducing stamina drain for the post arm retreat, which GPD ultimately implemented. I was on board with GPD's change that allowed the backward jab to create extra space against blocking opponents (face huggers). I thought it was a great idea. I actually think the shove is a little too weak (too vulnerable) and have asked devs to buff it. I loudly complained about the 50/50 bobblehead slip meta we had when the game launched, which was by far the biggest exploit aggressive players had going. And I call it an exploit because there was literally no safe way to counter it in the game. You just had to guess and hope for the best.

This is what I mean when I talk about mechanics and being specific. You say I've "been against buffs to outside fighting" but that's a very broad statement. I just mentioned four specific changes I either asked to be made or loudly supported that buffed outside fighting.

I see you are putting "runner" in quotes, and to my knowledge, running doesn't really exist until you get to the top 100 or so, so maybe some people honestly don't see it. But in my opinion, running as a strategy 100% exists insofar as players can abuse the fact that we:

A) Cannot cut off the cage purely by movement (like we could in FNC for instance)
B) A "forcefield" is created when players walk diagonal-backward due to the game engine shortcomings
C) All the vulnerability and speed penalties for moving forward vs planting

So in many high level fights, you very much see a meta where players poke a little bit and then run diagonally all fight long, randomly planting to throw lightning fast combos and get the rock. If they're using a grappler, they'll use the forward-moving GA to score easy double-legs. Meanwhile, you as the aggressor can't do sh*t with movement, so you are forced to hunt the other guy with strikes. Your punches either won't reach or can be slipped easily, so you mainly have to rely on kicks, which are quite slow and can be easily caught or block with haptic feedback enabled (which I also think is an exploit).

Maybe you never ever play matches like this, but guys in the top 100 do, and it's infuriating to play against - not because it's a strategy we don't like, or because we "just wanna bang, bro." It's frustrating because we literally have no tools from a mechanics standpoint with which to counter the running. Movement? Won't work, too slow. Strikes? Slip the punches or simply use the forcefield warping. Block all the kicks easily via visual reads or by abusing haptic feedback. You can try grappling if your fighter is built for it. But if you want to win the fight standing against someone running who knows what they're doing? It's possible, but almost every mechanic in the game is tilted against you.

Ok, let's look at your mechanic statements (I've just been addressing you as I read your post):

Stamina in block too forgiving. Okay, this isn't true, but please bear with me. I would prefer that we got rid of or changed the block break mechanic. Before the game got into heavy development, I actually wanted front & side blocking (instead of high/low), but we ultimately got stuck with high/low.

What high/low ultimately means is that is that front/side mixups in and of themselves don't mean much. In real life, a fighter can throw a single hard straight punch to shift the defender's block forward and then throw a head kick around the side. This was actually the prime strategy Cro Cop employed. Make the opponent fear the left straight SO much, they shift their block forward and get head kicked in the temple. Mirko created a FEAR of the straight by blasting the opponent with it just a few times over the course of the fight.

In the game, since we don't have front / side blocking (we have high/low), this "fear" is simulated by hitting the block multiple times in succession. Now, this does happen in real MMA. Just google Fedor vs Goodridge. But it's the primary way the devs chose to create a straight vs rounded meta.

RIGHT NOW, I agree that strike counts are probably too high, but the problem isn't a lack of stamina drain on block - the problem is the meta dictated by the block-break mechanic. So if you want to play with on-block stamina values then in my opinion you must also fundamentally change how the block break mechanic functions, or change how blocking works entirely.

ALL YOU WILL DO if you create a bigger on-block tax without changing the block break meta is:
A) You will increase BODY SPAM because people will try to land clean hits at all costs to save stamina
B) You will make turtling a MUCH BIGGER element of the meta.

Notice I did not say "defensive fighting." I said turtling. Right now, you can already gas the opponent badly simply via simple walking, lunges, and head movement (see: Pryoxis). But these defensive maneuvers at least incur some kind of risk. If Pryoxis thinks he's going to duck a jab but then gets caught with an uppercut, he can be kept in check.

Now imagine a HIGH LEVEL PLAYER who can just hold or pump the block whenever he sees a strike coming to WHITTLE DOWN the other player. Meanwhile body/leg kicks are slow as f*ck and can be telepathically / preemptively caught / checked with haptic feedback enabled (which isn't even necessary, just makes the issue worse).

Result? He who turtles wins.

The current block break system IS NOT perfect, I agree. It IS ugly, I agree.

BUT....in the current meta, it is also balanced.

And I would MUCH rather play an ugly but balanced game than play a prettier, more slow paced game that is incredibly imbalanced and becomes a body spammer / turtle paradise.

Onto your next point: distance management. I agree with you on this point. It's something Martial pointed out a long time ago to the devs, and I do think they've worked to adjust it, but I don't like the little lunges either. It has to do with how the game calculates hits and misses. If the game calculates something as a hit but then one of the fighters moves a little bit, the game sort of "slides" the aggressor forward to make the hit.

But the reason I dislike this "feature" isn't because it makes aggression easier - it's that it ruins precision and subtle spacing, which overall dumbs the game down. I can see how this is a problem for some people when, for instance, fighting someone who spams forward-moving overhands from halfway across the cage. That sh*t is very beatable but also admittedly annoying.

Next: "Forced to strike." Yes and no. Good slips can give an aggressor fits, especially when combined with lunges. And let's not forget that if you slip a strike and THEN lunge laterally, you get a huge positional reset. This is something GPD implemented in one of the patches. Now does striking HELP against someone going ham with aggression? Yeah, it does, but how is this not realistic? How many times have we seen Tyron Woodley pressured with his back to the cage absolutely smash someone trying to go in on him? Did we not see Stipe Miocic circle off the cage and land a punishing right hand on a bloodthirsty Werdum, KO'ing him cold? All the time in real MMA, we see one fighter get over-aggressive, and the other guy, with his back to or near the cage, fires back and blunts the aggression.

I actually think one of the BIGGER issues nobody is talking about is that not enough players are using evasion to STIFLE the jab pressure. If you are walking backwards and the other guy is walking forward with a jab and peppers your block 2 times, you KNOW he's going to try a third jab. A simple slip resets the pressure. The guy makes himself predictable. It's really not that hard to counter IN MY OPINION. But even if it is hard for others, the fact is that it's POSSIBLE. While cutting the cage using movement alone is flatly impossible, again, in terms of mechanics.

Fwd-moving jab: It's a lot safer than other options, yes, but it still leaves you wide open to the planted slip straight to the outside, which comes out fast and does absurdly good damage. A slipped jab also gives a gigantic GA window for takedowns. I've played a ton of Frankie Edgar players whose sole gameplan is to throw a few leg kicks to annoy and then run for the hills until I come forward and try to jab them. Then they slip the jab and get a takedown. If you haven't seen a high level player execute on this gameplan, you won't have any idea how powerful it truly is, especially if there is a gulf between the TD / TDD stats of each fighter.

Chin strength: I can agree to this point to an extent. But I think this problem could be addressed by selectively lowering the chin strength of certain fighters. This is the reason someone like Whittaker or MW Nick Diaz is a bitch. At least with Nick, his legs are a huge weak point and he doesn't have the greatest body strength. But for someone like Whittaker or hell, even Paulo Costa, it is indeed scary. I would personally lower these guys' stats a little for balance sake, but AHolbert might push back because of realism.

These are the kinds of disagreements we sometimes have within the GC circle. I might say "Hey, this A+ ranked fighter is extremely good in these areas but could use a slight nerf here for balance." And then someone (usually Aholbert) will say "Eh, that's not realistic though, he really is that good."

So you run into situations sometimes where guys have a great chin AND good stamina AND good grappling, and those specific characters are just a total noob crutch IMO. But I don't have total control over who gets nerfed and who gets buffed, so it is what it is. I also sometimes suggest nerfing or buffing certain fighters who I think were incorrectly rated to begin with, but the devs don't like to do fighter nerfs/buffs unless an event with those fighters happens.

Ok, I read the rest, I do think we (as in you and I, not everyone who's made similar arguments) are on the same page. As long as movement-based cage cutting is buffed and the camera / forcefield issues are fixed, I'd be fine with some sort of increase to defensive movement and defense in general. Yeah it's more of a UFC4 argument. You have to tackle the issue in a nuanced way. Some people are in here simply demanding an increased stamina drain on block for UFC3, and something like that would DESTROY high-level play. To get what we actually want without harming the game, we either need a big-*** patch (which isn't going to happen at this point) or a new game with overhauled logic.

[aholbert32]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

Who? Screenshots? They have 3300 hrs in the game? I know for a fact i have more than most people even commp players like spider and pryoxis and zhunter(no disrespect to him)

You said everyone. You said you were the Guinness world record holder. I’m saying you probably aren’t.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[aholbert32]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

I haven't been against buffs to outside fighting. I argued in favor of reducing stamina drain for the post arm retreat, which GPD ultimately implemented. I was on board with GPD's change that allowed the backward jab to create extra space against blocking opponents (face huggers). I thought it was a great idea. I actually think the shove is a little too weak (too vulnerable) and have asked devs to buff it. I loudly complained about the 50/50 bobblehead slip meta we had when the game launched, which was by far the biggest exploit aggressive players had going. And I call it an exploit because there was literally no safe way to counter it in the game. You just had to guess and hope for the best.

I'll object slightly to this statement. You havent been against ALL suggested buffs to outside fighting but back in the spring of 2018, you were not what I would describe as an advocate of outside fighting buffs. Late spring was at the height of the outside fighting/movement complaints here at OS and you and Kenetic were actively pushing back because of "running".

In fact, I never even heard of the term before I heard you talk about how it was the high level meta at that time. You and Kenetic were also the most vocal about adding a stamina tax to the stiff arm retreat. To your credit, once it was implemented, you recognized the drain was too much and argued for a reduction.

I'd also argue that part of the reason for the delay in movement buffs (which didnt get really addressed until late summer) was because of the clear disagreement amongst the communities (and mirrored with the GCs) when it came outside fighting/"running".

I think its undeniable that comp players prefer a more action heavy style. I'm not saying that they want everything to be a brawl. Just that they consider someone who's style to be solely from the outside/on their back foot to be a "runner" or fighting like a bitch....and they damn sure dont want that to be the meta of the game.

[Phillyboi207]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

I shortened a lot of this so we dont have a 10 page quote world. If I missed anything let me know.

This is what I mean when I talk about mechanics and being specific. You say I've "been against buffs to outside fighting" but that's a very broad statement. I just mentioned four specific changes I either asked to be made or loudly supported that buffed outside fighting.

It’s difficult for me to list specific things because of how long ago it was. I remember before the footwork patch you were against buffing the lunges. Your argument was that cutting people off was already too difficult. You were also against changes being made to stamina tax on block citing the fear of a “turtling meta”. But I will say it was wrong of me to claim you’ve been completely against outside fighting. I know you helped get the whiff tax added and that made a huge difference.

Maybe you never ever play matches like this, but guys in the top 100 do, and it's infuriating to play against - not because it's a strategy we don't like, or because we "just wanna bang, bro." It's frustrating because we literally have no tools from a mechanics standpoint with which to counter the running.

I wont discount your experience but do you have any videos of this? I know cutting the cage is possible with lateral strikes and I have played against some top 100 dudes. But I know I dont have nearly the experience you do with this kind of fight.

RIGHT NOW, I agree that strike counts are probably too high, but the problem isn't a lack of stamina drain on block - the problem is the meta dictated by the block-break mechanic. So if you want to play with on-block stamina values then in my opinion you must also fundamentally change how the block break mechanic functions, or change how blocking works entirely.

I agree that a stamina tax alone is a bad idea. In my perfect version of the game we add more bleed through on block (especially power shots) depending on an attacker’s accuracy+power vs the defender’s block rating. But I know we’d need a parry before block can be weakened.

Next: "Forced to strike." Yes and no. Good slips can give an aggressor fits, especially when combined with lunges. And let's not forget that if you slip a strike and THEN lunge laterally, you get a huge positional reset. This is something GPD implemented in one of the patches. Now does striking HELP against someone going ham with aggression? Yeah, it does, but how is this not realistic?

I dont mind that we can do it. It just sucks that we have to. Chaining the head movement into the lunge is very dangerous and shouldnt be needed if you already have some space. Hence the request for a circling mechanic/ cage cutting counterpart.

I actually think one of the BIGGER issues nobody is talking about is that not enough players are using evasion to STIFLE the jab pressure. If you are walking backwards and the other guy is walking forward with a jab and peppers your block 2 times, you KNOW he's going to try a third jab. A simple slip resets the pressure. The guy makes himself predictable. It's really not that hard to counter IN MY OPINION. But even if it is hard for others, the fact is that it's POSSIBLE. While cutting the cage using movement alone is flatly impossible, again, in terms of mechanics.

Agreed

Fwd-moving jab: It's a lot safer than other options, yes, but it still leaves you wide open to the planted slip straight to the outside, which comes out fast and does absurdly good damage. A slipped jab also gives a gigantic GA window for takedowns.

Mixing in feints usually solves the slip- straight issue. Cant say I’ve seen people get TDs off of slipped jabs however. I wouldnt be mad at reduced GA from a slipped jab.

Chin strength: I can agree to this point to an extent. But I think this problem could be addressed by selectively lowering the chin strength of certain fighters.

Eh I’m on the side of fighters being rated correctly. I think as a whole clean strikes dont do enough damage. That’s part of what makes winning with lower rated guys difficult. I also think there needs to be an “S” tier for the Jon Jones of the world so getting points will be diffcult with them in ranked.

Glad we can agree on the rest.

[ZombieRommel]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

I'll object slightly to this statement. You havent been against ALL suggested buffs to outside fighting but back in the spring of 2018, you were not what I would describe as an advocate of outside fighting buffs. Late spring was at the height of the outside fighting/movement complaints here at OS and you and Kenetic were actively pushing back because of "running".

In fact, I never even heard of the term before I heard you talk about how it was the high level meta at that time. You and Kenetic were also the most vocal about adding a stamina tax to the stiff arm retreat. To your credit, once it was implemented, you recognized the drain was too much and argued for a reduction.

I'd also argue that part of the reason for the delay in movement buffs (which didnt get really addressed until late summer) was because of the clear disagreement amongst the communities (and mirrored with the GCs) when it came outside fighting/"running".

I think its undeniable that comp players prefer a more action heavy style. I'm not saying that they want everything to be a brawl. Just that they consider someone who's style to be solely from the outside/on their back foot to be a "runner" or fighting like a bitch....and they damn sure dont want that to be the meta of the game.

In FNC, I started out playing as Ali and had dozens of people rage quit on me because I just played the outside and jabbed them to death. Actual rage quits with hatemail to boot. In fact I started playing as Tyson & Frazier because I got tired of the quits and the hatemail and decided to just put bad players out of their misery so they couldn't accuse me of running.

It's actually different in UFC3. Cage cutting properly doesn't exist. I for one don't favor an action heavy style. I think what makes MMA interesting is that a variety of styles can prosper. We have enough traditional fighting games that are all about rushdown and combos. I am a huge fan IRL of more tactical fighters like Anderson & Wonderboy.

I think arguments like "comp players want the game to favor aggression" & variations thereof are a big oversimplification and an easy way to frame the things when comp players push back against things like adding a stamina tax to the block (because it would cause an imbalance).

So yeah, just two points. Comp players do NOT favor action-heavy styles. That is not correct and verges on being a strawman. And yes, running exists and is still powerful.

This doesn't mean that more/better defensive options can't be added. They can, but these need to happen in tandem with buffs to cutting the cage and other adjustments (like getting rid of the forcefield bug, removing haptic feedback from ranked). The blanket change some people want of just adding more stamina tax on block will hurt the game, not just certain styles, but the actual game as a whole.

You are right that I didn't join the fray in spring 2018, because of all of the mechanics reasons I listed in previous posts (vuln, startup frames, etc).

I recognize it was a popular sentiment and I understand where some people are coming from with it, but the mechanics then and the mechanics now heavily punish aggression, and I've already made arguments listing how and why this is the case.

Again, adjustments can be made to defense, but they need to be made in tandem with other changes to aggression, holistically. UFC3 isn't in a horrible place right now. Making more stamina changes, especially one as blanketing and huge as the one being suggested, would be extremely dangerous to the game's health. Better to make adjustments in UFC4, test them out early (hopefully) and then see how people like them.

[Lauriedr1ver]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

Can you show us examples of running? Would really help us grasp it and how it is powerful.

[aholbert32]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

In FNC, I started out playing as Ali and had dozens of people rage quit on me because I just played the outside and jabbed them to death. Actual rage quits with hatemail to boot. In fact I started playing as Tyson & Frazier because I got tired of the quits and the hatemail and decided to just put bad players out of their misery so they couldn't accuse me of running.

It's actually different in UFC3. Cage cutting properly doesn't exist. I for one don't favor an action heavy style. I think what makes MMA interesting is that a variety of styles can prosper. We have enough traditional fighting games that are all about rushdown and combos. I am a huge fan IRL of more tactical fighters like Anderson & Wonderboy.

I think arguments like "comp players want the game to favor aggression" & variations thereof are a big oversimplification and an easy way to frame the things when comp players push back against things like adding a stamina tax to the block (because it would cause an imbalance).

So yeah, just two points. Comp players do NOT favor action-heavy styles. That is not correct and verges on being a strawman. And yes, running exists and is still powerful.

This doesn't mean that more/better defensive options can't be added. They can, but these need to happen in tandem with buffs to cutting the cage and other adjustments (like getting rid of the forcefield bug, removing haptic feedback from ranked). The blanket change some people want of just adding more stamina tax on block will hurt the game, not just certain styles, but the actual game as a whole.

You are right that I didn't join the fray in spring 2018, because of all of the mechanics reasons I listed in previous posts (vuln, startup frames, etc).

I recognize it was a popular sentiment and I understand where some people are coming from with it, but the mechanics then and the mechanics now heavily punish aggression, and I've already made arguments listing how and why this is the case.

Again, adjustments can be made to defense, but they need to be made in tandem with other changes to aggression, holistically. UFC3 isn't in a horrible place right now. Making more stamina changes, especially one as blanketing and huge as the one being suggested, would be extremely dangerous to the game's health. Better to make adjustments in UFC4, test them out early (hopefully) and then see how people like them.

Just a reminder. Back in April, you, Kenetic and Zack both argued that "running" was the meta. I asked for videos of "running" and you all provided videos that you believed showed that. I watched said videos and was adamant that no one was actually "running"....they were just fighting off of their back foot.

We all came to a consensus that the comp issue wasnt that people were actually running...it was that they werent actively engaging. In fact, it was jokingly called "fighting like a bitch" (I believe Zack came up with that).

Now if fighting off of your backfoot is considered fighting like a bitch...whats the opposite of that? Engaging, right? And if you are constantly engaging...you will have more action, right? So its not a strawman to say that comp fighters prefer an action-heavy meta, right?

I'm not arguing that every suggestion made on OS is right for the game. I just dont think its accurate to say that you have been in favor of movement buffs the entire time and thats what I originally objected to.

[ZombieRommel]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

I shortened a lot of this so we dont have a 10 page quote world. If I missed anything let me know.



It’s difficult for me to list specific things because of how long ago it was. I remember before the footwork patch you were against buffing the lunges. Your argument was that cutting people off was already too difficult. You were also against changes being made to stamina tax on block citing the fear of a “turtling meta”. But I will say it was wrong of me to claim you’ve been completely against outside fighting. I know you helped get the whiff tax added and that made a huge difference.



I wont discount your experience but do you have any videos of this? I know cutting the cage is possible with lateral strikes and I have played against some top 100 dudes. But I know I dont have nearly the experience you do with this kind of fight.



I agree that a stamina tax alone is a bad idea. In my perfect version of the game we add more bleed through on block (especially power shots) depending on an attacker’s accuracy+power vs the defender’s block rating. But I know we’d need a parry before block can be weakened.



I dont mind that we can do it. It just sucks that we have to. Chaining the head movement into the lunge is very dangerous and shouldnt be needed if you already have some space. Hence the request for a circling mechanic/ cage cutting counterpart.



Agreed



Mixing in feints usually solves the slip- straight issue. Cant say I’ve seen people get TDs off of slipped jabs however. I wouldnt be mad at reduced GA from a slipped jab.



Eh I’m on the side of fighters being rated correctly. I think as a whole clean strikes dont do enough damage. That’s part of what makes winning with lower rated guys difficult. I also think there needs to be an “S” tier for the Jon Jones of the world so getting points will be diffcult with them in ranked.

Glad we can agree on the rest.

I forgot I was in favor of the whiff tax, thank you for reminding me of that. Yeah, aggression still needs to be an element in the game (for it to be interesting), but at the start of the game, sloppy aggression was rewarded too heavily. Whiffs weren't nearly as taxing as they should have been and bobblehead slip spam was extremely dominant. I was in favor of getting rid of all of that mess.

I was reticent about MartialMind's 2-hit combo strike falloff change, but having seen it in action for months now, I'll readily admit his intuition here was right and the game benefited.

I don't remember saying anything about lunges. Maybe I did but I don't remember it.

An increase stamina drain on block has always been a bad idea and I've always been against it. Hitting someone's block means being in range. The game's blocking system is over-simplified (high low) making it very easy to block things at-will. I DON'T want a game that encourages body spam (like UFC2) or where people get a lead in the round and then turtle up to drain the other guy's stamina. That's not skillful at all and would quite literally break the game's balance at the top level.

ZHunter and I have posted videos before (as I recall, it's been a while), but I (and I think ZHunter) have become discouraged from posting videos because they're very easy for anyone to nitpick, regardless of experience or skill level. I've posted a lot of videos to Aholbert with clear running and he'd always say, "Nah, that's not running because XYZ." And he'd still maintain he's never seen a video of running. So I don't care to use video anymore. It's too subjective and nebulous and one person's running is another person's defensive fighting. So that's why I prefer to stick only to mechanics arguments, because they are black and white, undeniable, and testable.

When I list out the wealth of mechanics that punish aggression and favor defense (or at least being stationary), I don't really get any good counter-arguments. In this thread, I just got "Planting isn't running" (ignoring that runners only run SO THAT they can plant and leverage forward-moving vuln) and "it's not just about the mechanics, it's about the strategy" and allusions to jab poking, but the actual counter-arguments against the mechanics I listed don't really exist, because the mechanics are black and white and they are stacked against aggression objectively whether anyone wants to believe it or not.

Regardless, I've already explained why cutting the cage proper isn't a thing in the game. Punches can be evaded easily using slips, bad range, and the warping / forcefield of the game engine. So kicks are your only real option to control someone hellbent on running, and kicks are slow and give a gigantic tell with haptic feedback enabled (which all the scumbags online use). So you really have nothing. You have to hope and pray the other guy screws up or just try to melt his brain with feints, but there's a lot of luck. And in terms of movement you really can't do anything to head off the other guy.

In FNC, the corners were eventually patched to be "sticky" to combat this issue and the lunges / dashes you could do actually let you head off the other person. In UFC3, the startup and the recovery on the major lunges is too huge to be able to keep up with someone just running backward and to the side, and the cage isn't sticky.

I don't think chaining head movement into lunges is as dangerous as you believe. I think it's just a mechanic that most people ignored. GPD added many cool mechanics that only a handful of people used or were ignored entirely. Things like the block check hook counters. The push. Lunging into TD's. A lot of stuff honestly. He went above and beyond adding cool mechanics but most people only know how to either A) mash like an absolute monkey or B) run away holding block until they die. And that's the sad truth of it.

As for feints, I feint like a madman, but there's only so much you can do with them. Did you know that if you feint, there is a GIGANTIC delay before you can slip? I often face people who run and then occasionally plant into a slip straight to intercept my jab. I had an idea one day, which was to feint the jab to get them to plant into a slip straight, at which point I would slip THEIR straight and intercept them with my own.

Result? I found out that there's a 2-3 second delay after the feint where you can't really do anything other than throw a strike. Even blocking after a feint is delayed. So feinting in itself is quite limited right now in UFC3.

Anyway I agree we could be here for an eternity going back and forth but hopefully this clarifies where I stand. It's not as simple as "He's a comp player, so he wants to bang, bro!" (not saying you framed it that way, but I've seen others here go that route).

[1212headkick]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

To address you here (and to an extent 1212Headkick), jab pressure in the game is easily countered with simple slip straights. Players can also duck it (given the fighter is short enough) or lunge it. But in a high level match, jab spam is easily beaten by the slip straight

False. The whole purpose of the jab is to make you expose yourself to vulnerability. I am banking on you to slip straight so i can get an easy slip hook uppercut counter. Im luring you to play that game the entire time. If you back up ill keep you against the cage with lunging jab. Youll want to move your head even more and your going to eat a hook and probably flashed. I can hit you with 11 lunging 2 head kick. If my lunging 2 lands the head kick is free due to the stun frames. Ill never have my jab intercepted. Sidestep at your own risk. I want you to do that as well. The goal is to make you think your being defensive but really your being baited the entire time. Ill switch the cadence annd youll never know when its coming especially if i feint. This isnt theory crafting. This has gotten me and my camp top 20 on xbox every season. You dont need to break the block. Just make you expose yourself to vulnerability. If you dont move your head i will tear your block down and fast.


I recommend looking up Pryoxis. Pry is a player who actually uses all of the defensive tools available to him, and the result is that attacking him (especially to his head) is extremely dangerous, because it will leave you open to huge stamina loss & counters

Pryoxis knows what my diaz is like. He takes me to the ground(i welcome this as i have one off the best rubberguards in the game.) pryoxis mainly goes for guillotines if you stop that he looks to kneebar or armbar fook you. He wilts under pressure.

I haven't been against buffs to outside fighting. I argued in favor of reducing stamina drain for the post arm retreat, which GPD ultimately implemented. I was on board with GPD's change that allowed the backward jab to create extra space against blocking opponents (face huggers). I thought it was a great idea. I actually think the shove is a little too weak (too vulnerable) and have asked devs to buff it. I loudly complained about the 50/50 bobblehead slip meta we had when the game launched, which was by far the biggest exploit aggressive players had going. And I call it an exploit because there was literally no safe way to counter it in the game. You just had to guess and hope for the best.

This is what I mean when I talk about mechanics and being specific. You say I've "been against buffs to outside fighting" but that's a very broad statement. I just mentioned four specific changes I either asked to be made or loudly supported that buffed outside fighting.

I see you are putting "runner" in quotes, and to my knowledge, running doesn't really exist until you get to the top 100 or so, so maybe some people honestly don't see it. But in my opinion, running as a strategy 100% exists insofar as players can abuse the fact that we:

A) Cannot cut off the cage purely by movement (like we could in FNC for instance) Bald faced lie. If you keep a slight distance and stand in front off someone they arent running nowhere but to search for another match. If you arent using your lunging jab to frame trap thats your fault and not at all intelligent pressure.
B) A "forcefield" is created when players walk diagonal-backward due to the game engine shortcomings
C) All the vulnerability and speed penalties for moving forward vs planting

If your back is torwards the cage youll be paying the price not me. Youll be doing all the forward movement while i enjoy the nice box im keeping you in. You cant move anywhere. I can move where and when i want to. Your not going to make goodd decisions if my jab and lunging jab are always in your face

So in many high level fights, you very much see a meta where players poke a little bit and then run diagonally all fight long, randomly planting to throw lightning fast combos and get the rock. If they're using a grappler, they'll use the forward-moving GA to score easy double-legs. Meanwhile, you as the aggressor can't do sh*t with movement, so you are forced to hunt the other guy with strikes. Your punches either won't reach or can be slipped easily, so you mainly have to rely on kicks, which are quite slow and can be easily caught or block with haptic feedback enabled (which I also think is an exploit).

Maybe you never ever play matches like this, but guys in the top 100 do, and it's infuriating to play against - not because it's a strategy we don't like, or because we "just wanna bang, bro." It's frustrating because we literally have no tools from a mechanics standpoint with which to counter the running. Movement? Won't work, too slow. Strikes? Slip the punches or simply use the forcefield warping. Block all the kicks easily via visual reads or by abusing haptic feedback. You can try grappling if your fighter is built for it. But if you want to win the fight standing against someone running who knows what they're doing? It's possible, but almost every mechanic in the game is tilted against you.

Ok, let's look at your mechanic statements (I've just been addressing you as I read your post):

Stamina in block too forgiving. Okay, this isn't true, but please bear with me. I would prefer that we got rid of or changed the block break mechanic. Before the game got into heavy development, I actually wanted front & side blocking (instead of high/low), but we ultimately got stuck with high/low.

What high/low ultimately means is that is that front/side mixups in and of themselves don't mean much. In real life, a fighter can throw a single hard straight punch to shift the defender's block forward and then throw a head kick around the side. This was actually the prime strategy Cro Cop employed. Make the opponent fear the left straight SO much, they shift their block forward and get head kicked in the temple. Mirko created a FEAR of the straight by blasting the opponent with it just a few times over the course of the fight.

In the game, since we don't have front / side blocking (we have high/low), this "fear" is simulated by hitting the block multiple times in succession. Now, this does happen in real MMA. Just google Fedor vs Goodridge. But it's the primary way the devs chose to create a straight vs rounded meta.

RIGHT NOW, I agree that strike counts are probably too high, but the problem isn't a lack of stamina drain on block - the problem is the meta dictated by the block-break mechanic. So if you want to play with on-block stamina values then in my opinion you must also fundamentally change how the block break mechanic functions, or change how blocking works entirely.


False. I can jab you 250 times in rd 1 and come out with full stamina in round 2. Since the movement is poor your gonna eat those all day long. And your gonna be so confused because you never know when the hook is coming

ALL YOU WILL DO if you create a bigger on-block tax without changing the block break meta is:
A) You will increase BODY SPAM because people will try to land clean hits at all costs to save stamina
B) You will make turtling a MUCH BIGGER element of the meta.

Notice I did not say "defensive fighting." I said turtling. Right now, you can already gas the opponent badly simply via simple walking, lunges, and head movement (see: Pryoxis). But these defensive maneuvers at least incur some kind of risk. If Pryoxis thinks he's going to duck a jab but then gets caught with an uppercut, he can be kept in check.

Now imagine a HIGH LEVEL PLAYER who can just hold or pump the block whenever he sees a strike coming to WHITTLE DOWN the other player. Meanwhile body/leg kicks are slow as f*ck and can be telepathically / preemptively caught / checked with haptic feedback enabled (which isn't even necessary, just makes the issue worse).

Result? He who turtles wins.

The current block break system IS NOT perfect, I agree. It IS ugly, I agree.

BUT....in the current meta, it is also balanced.

And I would MUCH rather play an ugly but balanced game than play a prettier, more slow paced game that is incredibly imbalanced and becomes a body spammer / turtle paradise.

Onto your next point: distance management. I agree with you on this point. It's something Martial pointed out a long time ago to the devs, and I do think they've worked to adjust it, but I don't like the little lunges either. It has to do with how the game calculates hits and misses. If the game calculates something as a hit but then one of the fighters moves a little bit, the game sort of "slides" the aggressor forward to make the hit.

But the reason I dislike this "feature" isn't because it makes aggression easier - it's that it ruins precision and subtle spacing, which overall dumbs the game down. I can see how this is a problem for some people when, for instance, fighting someone who spams forward-moving overhands from halfway across the cage. That sh*t is very beatable but also admittedly annoying.

Next: "Forced to strike." Yes and no. Good slips can give an aggressor fits, especially when combined with lunges. And let's not forget that if you slip a strike and THEN lunge laterally, you get a huge positional reset. This is something GPD implemented in one of the patches. Now does striking HELP against someone going ham with aggression? Yeah, it does, but how is this not realistic? How many times have we seen Tyron Woodley pressured with his back to the cage absolutely smash someone trying to go in on him? Did we not see Stipe Miocic circle off the cage and land a punishing right hand on a bloodthirsty Werdum, KO'ing him cold? All the time in real MMA, we see one fighter get over-aggressive, and the other guy, with his back to or near the cage, fires back and blunts the aggression.

I actually think one of the BIGGER issues nobody is talking about is that not enough players are using evasion to STIFLE the jab pressure. If you are walking backwards and the other guy is walking forward with a jab and peppers your block 2 times, you KNOW he's going to try a third jab. A simple slip resets the pressure. The guy makes himself predictable. It's really not that hard to counter IN MY OPINION. But even if it is hard for others, the fact is that it's POSSIBLE. While cutting the cage using movement alone is flatly impossible, again, in terms of mechanics.

Fwd-moving jab: It's a lot safer than other options, yes, but it still leaves you wide open to the planted slip straight to the outside, which comes out fast and does absurdly good damage. A slipped jab also gives a gigantic GA window for takedowns. I've played a ton of Frankie Edgar players whose sole gameplan is to throw a few leg kicks to annoy and then run for the hills until I come forward and try to jab them. Then they slip the jab and get a takedown. If you haven't seen a high level player execute on this gameplan, you won't have any idea how powerful it truly is, especially if there is a gulf between the TD / TDD stats of each fighter.

Chin strength: I can agree to this point to an extent. But I think this problem could be addressed by selectively lowering the chin strength of certain fighters. This is the reason someone like Whittaker or MW Nick Diaz is a bitch. At least with Nick, his legs are a huge weak point and he doesn't have the greatest body strength. But for someone like Whittaker or hell, even Paulo Costa, it is indeed scary. I would personally lower these guys' stats a little for balance sake, but AHolbert might push back because of realism.

These are the kinds of disagreements we sometimes have within the GC circle. I might say "Hey, this A+ ranked fighter is extremely good in these areas but could use a slight nerf here for balance." And then someone (usually Aholbert) will say "Eh, that's not realistic though, he really is that good."

So you run into situations sometimes where guys have a great chin AND good stamina AND good grappling, and those specific characters are just a total noob crutch IMO. But I don't have total control over who gets nerfed and who gets buffed, so it is what it is. I also sometimes suggest nerfing or buffing certain fighters who I think were incorrectly rated to begin with, but the devs don't like to do fighter nerfs/buffs unless an event with those fighters happens.

Ok, I read the rest, I do think we (as in you and I, not everyone who's made similar arguments) are on the same page. As long as movement-based cage cutting is buffed and the camera / forcefield issues are fixed, I'd be fine with some sort of increase to defensive movement and defense in general. Yeah it's more of a UFC4 argument. You have to tackle the issue in a nuanced way. Some people are in here simply demanding an increased stamina drain on block for UFC3, and something like that would DESTROY high-level play. To get what we actually want without harming the game, we either need a big-*** patch (which isn't going to happen at this point) or a new game with overhauled logic.

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[ZombieRommel]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

False. I can jab you 250 times in rd 1 and come out with full stamina in round 2. Since the movement is poor your gonna eat those all day long. And your gonna be so confused because you never know when the hook is coming

With all due respect, you use so much hyperbole and pump up your own abilities so much, I can't take your arguments seriously.

JABS ARE VERY EASY TO COUNTER. I know, because I throw a lot of jabs. Slip-straights SMASH people jabbing nonstop. Slips combined with counters to the body SMASH people using jabs. Raw elbows intercept jabs and out-trade them. So do raw uppercuts. So do overhands. So do straights.

The only way you're throwing 250 jabs a round and not getting absolutely smashed or gassed is versus a noob.

But I've noticed almost all your replies contain a laughable level of hyperbole and self-aggrandizement, so engaging with you is not really something I'm interested in.