Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

[Phillyboi207]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

Well you’re making some pretty big claims saying that’s it’s impossible to cut someone off with movement. I havent seen or had that experience.

If it’s a proven glitch I’d love to see video of it.

And I think you misunderstood my comment about feints. If you throw a feint while moving laterally your fighter will still slide laterally without throwing the strike. It’s a way to cut the cage but is obviously only safe when out of striking range. When within range you have to use actual strikes to move laterally.

Now that does suck but it should theoretically be a solution to what you’re talking about.

If you dont have a video can you have one of the gamechangers that are on xbox use the movement glitch on me?

[WarMMA]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

Sounds to me like its something they need to fix with the games mechanical shortcomings then. Cuz movement and outside fighting or "running" should be a viable option. Fighters like Machida use to fraustrate guys with it all the time and for a while, he was a tough puzzle to solve because of it. Lots of fighters and fans use to cry about how he ran, but he was winning fights. My thing is if the game always caters more to pressure fighting and staying in someones face, it's not really a realistic mma game. Btw Zombie, what would you suggest be a way to counter a fighter running? Have you thought of any ideas? I can't really think of much besides making the cage a bit sticker maybe? But staying away and fighting on the outside should be a viable option. Watch Lyoto Machida vs Tito Ortiz...a perfect example.

[Lauriedr1ver]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

Honeslty what is this running phenomenon, literally have never had trouble cutting the cage or staying within an inch of my oppnenent.

[ZombieRommel]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

Sounds to me like its something they need to fix with the games mechanical shortcomings then. Cuz movement and outside fighting or "running" should be a viable option. Fighters like Machida use to fraustrate guys with it all the time and for a while, he was a tough puzzle to solve because of it. Lots of fighters and fans use to cry about how he ran, but he was winning fights. My thing is if the game always caters more to pressure fighting and staying in someones face, it's not really a realistic mma game. Btw Zombie, what would you suggest be a way to counter a fighter running? Have you thought of any ideas? I can't really think of much besides making the cage a bit sticker maybe? But staying away and fighting on the outside should be a viable option. Watch Lyoto Machida vs Tito Ortiz...a perfect example.

In FNC, dashing covered a decent distance, had a fast startup, and had a fast recovery. In UFC3, there is a long recovery on the major lunge. What this means is let's say a guy is running to his right. You lunge to his right to catch up (which doesn't work anyway). He can change directions and started backpedaling to his left before the recovery of the lunge has worn off. It would be better if we could use lunges to head off a fighter moving in a given direction and then recover fast enough to change directions if he starts walking the other way.

Secondly, in FNC there was also a significant movement speed bonus for not blocking. When blocking the walk speed slowed down.

So this created a better risk/reward dynamic. If I wanted to chase down an Ali with my Tyson, I had to drop my guard to do so and put myself at some risk. I had to be ready to block or move my head. I couldn't just bolldoze him like a tank. By the same token, if an Ali wanted to be evasive, he mostly had to keep his hands down, use good footwork, and keep his head off the center. He couldn't just backpedal behind his block and pump out the jab while running 90MPH. It was very well balanced.

If someone wants to be fleet-footed like Cruz, they should lose speed when guarding, and this speed penalty should also apply for guarding against feints, so perhaps the aggressor could fake the defender into thinking he was attacking, prompting the defender to guard and slow down a little.

So off the top of my head, I would suggest the following:

• Decrease the recovery frames on lunges (let fighters recover faster so they can change walking directions faster)
• Increase movement speed for fighters who are not guarding
• Slow movement speed for fighters who are guarding
• Fix "blowback" / "forcefield" / "magic angle" bugs that cause space to be created out of thin air when using fwd strikes vs a backward moving opponent
• Disable haptic feedback in ranked modes (this is intended for disabled persons and abused in a competitive setting to block all strikes before they can be seen)
• Enable slips immediately after feinting (this is impossible now) to draw out planted strikes & the slip straight and counter them better
• Optionally, require moving fighters to stop moving manually (let go of the stick) to check leg kicks (the game automatically stops you right now) - I feel this might make leg kicks more viable against people hellbent on running

As you can see, none of these are giant changes, but I feel like together they could really help. Some of them (like faster recovery on lunges and faster move speed when not blocking) are also "neutral" changes, meaning they could be used just as readily for defense.

To clarify, I'm completely fine with running and point-fighting being viable. But as with my FNC example, it should be beatable via low-risk means (meaning, I should be able to use movement to head off the fighter, not chase him in a straight line and wing kicks at him hoping one hits and doesn't get ducked, checked, or caught).

Watch any Conor or Darren Till fight and note how they head off the cage. It's mostly them bouncing on their heels, ready to change angle at any time, paired with feints. One example:

<iframe src='https://gfycat.com/ifr/GrotesqueFemaleAurochs' frameborder='0' scrolling='no' allowfullscreen width='640' height='397'></iframe><p> <a href="https://gfycat.com/grotesquefemaleaurochs">via Gfycat</a></p>

I can probably consult Martial for better gifs later since he is the gif master but this is the best I could find for now. I think most people know what I'm talking about already though. It's not like in UFC3 where the fighter does a big, labored lunge and then takes ages to recover and shift direction. Or just follows the other guy like a lost puppy in a straight line. Conor / Till move forward and use their cage awareness to quickly head off angles while bouncing and ready to pivot anywhere.

Good question btw.

[WarMMA]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

^ Those all would make for decent changes imo. I always liked the lunges in FNC more because of the faster recovery frames. It let me keep up with my opponent better. Also feel FNC handled the inside vs outside fighting thing better, but it's only boxing so it's easier I guess. My thing is I just want staying away and fighting on the outside to be just as viable as any other style in the game. Some players call it running, but it's a realistic fighting style. Anyone who disagree's should go watch Machida vs Ortiz.

[aholbert32]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

Someone had asked for a video earlier in this thread, and I answered that I prefer to focus on mechanics based arguments (which are black and white) rather than provide video, which is very subjective.

In the internal Game Changer chat, ZHunter and I would record videos of people running and show them to Aholbert. He would always answer "I don't see running, they are just fighting defensively." He would say this because the guys weren't TOTALLY passive. Sometimes they'd plant and throw a combo. Sometimes they'd stop to throw a slip straight. Sometimes they'd come forward A LITTLE BIT before going back to running diagonally / backward and blocking everything.

[/I]

I agree that it can be subjective but I want to clarify one thing. When it came to those videos, the line was pretty clear. Zombie, Kenetic and ZHunter called that "running" and Martialmind and I thought that it was just someone fighting defensively. I know Zombie hates for me to characterize stuff like this but that was a clear comp vs sim/realism split there.

There were also several occasions where the devs agreed that those videos didnt show "running".

For me when someone says "running", I think of the Khalib Starnes vs Nate Quarry fight or some of Gus's fights where he actually sprints back to run. When those GC's were complaining about "running", the back sprint wasnt even in the game so it wasnt actually running. Even with the back sprint, no one could actually be successful with actually "running" away and not engaging.

Thats why the argument is really "not engaging regularly" and/or "always fighting off your back foot".

I wish we would stop using the "running" term to describe this behavior because that isnt it.

[ZombieRommel]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

^ Those all would make for decent changes imo. I always liked the lunges in FNC more because of the faster recovery frames. It let me keep up with my opponent better. Also feel FNC handled the inside vs outside fighting thing better, but it's only boxing so it's easier I guess. My thing is I just want staying away and fighting on the outside to be just as viable as any other style in the game. Some players call it running, but it's a realistic fighting style. Anyone who disagree's should go watch Machida vs Ortiz.

I agree it should be viable and take some intelligence to stop.

At the end of the day I want as many styles to be viable as possible because that's what's going to keep the game deep and allow for the most creativity.

I get that running isn't a huge problem at mid levels of the player base, but at high level, if someone wants to run away, they can force you into taking huge gambles just like the bobblehead pressure guys used to be able to force you into huge gambles - the runners just use different means. They force you to take big actions to do any damage at all, when you should realistically be able to focus most of your effort on constricting the cage via movement and then taking small actions to tag them up regularly and make their gameplan a waste of their own time. Like I shouldn't be forced into throwing head and body kicks to have any hope of doing any damage, or resorting to grappling. I should be able to cut off the cage and land short safe combos if I'm making the right reads.

[ZombieRommel]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

I agree that it can be subjective but I want to clarify one thing. When it came to those videos, the line was pretty clear. Zombie, Kenetic and ZHunter called that "running" and Martialmind and I thought that it was just someone fighting defensively. I know Zombie hates for me to characterize stuff like this but that was a clear comp vs sim/realism split there.

There were also several occasions where the devs agreed that those videos didnt show "running".

For me when someone says "running", I think of the Khalib Starnes vs Nate Quarry fight or some of Gus's fights where he actually sprints back to run. When those GC's were complaining about "running", the back sprint wasnt even in the game so it wasnt actually running. Even with the back sprint, no one could actually be successful with actually "running" away and not engaging.

Thats why the argument is really "not engaging regularly" and/or "always fighting off your back foot".

I wish we would stop using the "running" term to describe this behavior because that isnt it.

Well we disagree. I don't require "total passivity" to be a feature of running. It's entirely possible for a fighter to run for most of the fight and still stop and plant to leverage vulnerability multipliers and the like. If the gameplan has realistic vulnerabilities, THEN, it is outside fighting. But as long as the other guy can create space and avoid danger AT WILL (meaning the aggressor can't do anything intelligent to stop the gameplan), it is running because it is abusing a flawed gameplay system.

IRL, Machida and Thompson cannot create space at-will and force their opponents to chase in straight lines and ONLY kick to hope to reach them. They cannot generate forcefields that blow their opponents backward 3 feet. They cannot telepathically know which strikes are coming (haptic feedback). Their gameplan is defensive but vulnerable if its weaknesses are exploited.

At the top levels of UFC3, running has very, very few weaknesses and all of the above shortcomings and exploits can be leveraged by the player who chooses to go backwards. Therefore, to me it is running. It doesn't deserve the respect of being called "outside fighting" because players are abusing several bugs and flaws in the game design to do what they are doing.

If we decide to have a footrace, and you decide to ride in a Go-Kart and you beat me, I'm not giving you the credit of telling you that you beat me in a foot race.

Just like I'm not giving these guys the credit of calling what they're doing "outside fighting." They have unfair / unrealistic advantages helping them to pull off the gameplan. It doesn't require the level of planning and intelligence actual outside fighting requires. Therefore it is not "outside fighting," even if the player is not totally passive.

[Lauriedr1ver]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

Well we disagree. I don't require "total passivity" to be a feature of running. It's entirely possible for a fighter to run for most of the fight and still stop and plant to leverage vulnerability multipliers and the like. If the gameplan has realistic vulnerabilities, THEN, it is outside fighting. But as long as the other guy can create space and avoid danger AT WILL (meaning the aggressor can't do anything intelligent to stop the gameplan), it is running because it is abusing a flawed gameplay system.

IRL, Machida and Thompson cannot create space at-will and force their opponents to chase in straight lines and ONLY kick to hope to reach them. They cannot generate forcefields that blow their opponents backward 3 feet. They cannot telepathically know which strikes are coming (haptic feedback). Their gameplan is defensive but vulnerable if its weaknesses are exploited.

At the top levels of UFC3, running has very, very few weaknesses and all of the above shortcomings and exploits can be leveraged by the player who chooses to go backwards. Therefore, to me it is running. It doesn't deserve the respect of being called "outside fighting" because players are abusing several bugs and flaws in the game design to do what they are doing.

If we decide to have a footrace, and you decide to ride in a Go-Kart and you beat me, I'm not giving you the credit of telling you that you beat me in a foot race.

Just like I'm not giving these guys the credit of calling what they're doing "outside fighting." They have unfair / unrealistic advantages helping them to pull off the gameplan. It doesn't require the level of planning and intelligence actual outside fighting requires. Therefore it is not "outside fighting," even if the player is not totally passive.

Show us what running is. Cause all I'm understanding is that it's someone fighting defensively and well.

We can having differing opinions about what is going on but until you show us what your gripe is we can't understand you.

[Phillyboi207]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

Well we disagree. I don't require "total passivity" to be a feature of running. It's entirely possible for a fighter to run for most of the fight and still stop and plant to leverage vulnerability multipliers and the like. If the gameplan has realistic vulnerabilities, THEN, it is outside fighting. But as long as the other guy can create space and avoid danger AT WILL (meaning the aggressor can't do anything intelligent to stop the gameplan), it is running because it is abusing a flawed gameplay system.

IRL, Machida and Thompson cannot create space at-will and force their opponents to chase in straight lines and ONLY kick to hope to reach them. They cannot generate forcefields that blow their opponents backward 3 feet. They cannot telepathically know which strikes are coming (haptic feedback). Their gameplan is defensive but vulnerable if its weaknesses are exploited.

At the top levels of UFC3, running has very, very few weaknesses and all of the above shortcomings and exploits can be leveraged by the player who chooses to go backwards. Therefore, to me it is running. It doesn't deserve the respect of being called "outside fighting" because players are abusing several bugs and flaws in the game design to do what they are doing.

If we decide to have a footrace, and you decide to ride in a Go-Kart and you beat me, I'm not giving you the credit of telling you that you beat me in a foot race.

Just like I'm not giving these guys the credit of calling what they're doing "outside fighting." They have unfair / unrealistic advantages helping them to pull off the gameplan. It doesn't require the level of planning and intelligence actual outside fighting requires. Therefore it is not "outside fighting," even if the player is not totally passive.

I’m really tryna understand your argument but I literally cannot envision what you’re talking about in game.

That’s why I want a video. I’ve cut people off with strikes or feinting/ moving laterally. I’d even love to see someone use this mechanic against me to see if they can cut me off.

Right now you keep repeating that there’s no intelligent defense against it but I just find it hard to believe or else everyone in ESFL would be doing it.

[1212headkick]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

Your willing to show us videos of one thing but not of another and that is plain confirmation biase at its finest. If you can’t show an exact example then really your argument is to be discarded

[Phillyboi207]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

Your willing to show us videos of one thing but not of another and that is plain confirmation biase at its finest. If you can’t show an exact example then really your argument is to be discarded

Why are you so hostile lol

Anyway, you’re top 100 right?

Can you do the moving back and diagonal glitch against me?

[WarMMA]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

I agree it should be viable and take some intelligence to stop.

At the end of the day I want as many styles to be viable as possible because that's what's going to keep the game deep and allow for the most creativity.

I get that running isn't a huge problem at mid levels of the player base, but at high level, if someone wants to run away, they can force you into taking huge gambles just like the bobblehead pressure guys used to be able to force you into huge gambles - the runners just use different means. They force you to take big actions to do any damage at all, when you should realistically be able to focus most of your effort on constricting the cage via movement and then taking small actions to tag them up regularly and make their gameplan a waste of their own time. Like I shouldn't be forced into throwing head and body kicks to have any hope of doing any damage, or resorting to grappling. I should be able to cut off the cage and land short safe combos if I'm making the right reads.

Well I would be fine with the changes you thought of. Once it's not something that's just straight up trying to hinder the outside fighting game, i'm fine. But the way the game is currently, I find I have the most success against guys that are fighting off the back foot when I use lots of feinting, quick strike whiffs and long range attacks. I know they want me to take a big action so they can try and counter, so I do these things to bait them. You don't always have to take big actions. I find the most important thing against these type of players is patience though. It's pretty easy for the style to fraustrate you and throw you off your game. Especially if you're a player that like to pressure fight.

[1212headkick]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

Why are you so hostile lol

Anyway, you’re top 100 right?

Can you do the moving back and diagonal glitch against me?

To be honest I got into the top 100 when I started to pressure fight lol

[ZombieRommel]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

I captured more, but these are 2 clips of the Darth Vader forcefield bug. Notice Conor's left fist (his whole body actually) in the first clip gets BLOWN backward and his right foot slides backwards like he's moonwalking. In the second clip, notice JJ's lead foot slide backward. I think the second clip is actually easier to see at full speed because the distance created happens in the blink of an eye. Notice these guys aren't using lunges at all. They are covering up and walking backward a little and to the side.

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This is definitely some kind of physics screw-up, but I also think the bad camera tracking is to blame. It can't keep up with the actual game.