Situation-specific grappling and submissions

[Kingslayer04]

This is the third attempt of me posting this thread, the site crashes every time I try to. I'm not typing this for a third time, so here's a screenshot:

[Solid_Altair]

Re: Situation-specific grappling and submissions

I think having the attacking portion being quite specific per submission coooouuuld be OK. But the defending part being very specific would essentially doom someone to lose the whole fight. I think it would be too hard to learn (not just hard to master).

[1212headkick]

Re: Situation-specific grappling and submissions

Bring back ud3s sub system. Problem solved.

[Kingslayer04]

Re: Situation-specific grappling and submissions

I think having the attacking portion being quite specific per submission coooouuuld be OK. But the defending part being very specific would essentially doom someone to lose the whole fight. I think it would be too hard to learn (not just hard to master).

Yeah, that could be a possibility. Maybe many of them share similar principles of defence, i.e. you learn one, you practically learn 3 or 4, something like that. ZHunter could perhaps help. But yeah, I wanted to start a discussion and gauge what's possible, what's less possible, all of that. But having to know how to defend different kinds of submissions would be very cool, especially during the submission itself. The attacker should perhaps also learn how exactly to pull of different subs properly — in order to really be a sub specialist.

[aholbert32]

Re: Situation-specific grappling and submissions

Bring back ud3s sub system. Problem solved.

Thats a horrible idea. I was playing UD3 this weekend and reminded how ****ty that system is.

[Kingslayer04]

Re: Situation-specific grappling and submissions

Thats a horrible idea. I was playing UD3 this weekend and reminded how ****ty that system is.

Is that the chasing one? I don't know if it's good or bad in that game but WWE games have it and I can't buy a submission or an escape on there, I have to use the simple system. Dunno if it's me or if it's just bad.

[aholbert32]

Re: Situation-specific grappling and submissions

Yeah, that could be a possibility. Maybe many of them share similar principles of defence, i.e. you learn one, you practically learn 3 or 4, something like that. ZHunter could perhaps help. But yeah, I wanted to start a discussion and gauge what's possible, what's less possible, all of that. But having to know how to defend different kinds of submissions would be very cool, especially during the submission itself. The attacker should perhaps also learn how exactly to pull of different subs properly — in order to really be a sub specialist.

So lets break down what this requires:

- New animations and mo cap focusing solely on the step by step of each submission. Now the current animations already do this to a point but based on your descriptions, I think the animations would need to be more incremental to show the squeezing and the turning.

- New camera when subs are locked in. You would need to be able to observe the intricacies of each adjustment and a wide camera angle would not be able to pick that up as easily.

- This is the biggest one. I play Madden. When I play I dont use the hot routes or line adjustments when on offense. I just play. I know what hot routes are. I know why I would use line adjustments. I just dont ever use them because that level of realism isnt needed for a game that I just like to pick up and play. The good news is i can still be successful at the game without using those features.

Here you are asking for every player to study a tutorial and learn what you need to do to either advance or defend a submission and there are 28 different submissions in the game. If you dont learn them, you are at a serious disadvantage when it comes to winning in a fight. That goes for online or offline.

Now you may say "How about two control schemes? Simple submissions and the new system." That could work but my question for you is: What system do you think the average player will choose? I think it would be simple submissions because its straight forward.

So if most use simple submissions, why would the dev team spend time and resources to develop a system that will be a challenge to learn and that most people wont use?

[aholbert32]

Re: Situation-specific grappling and submissions

Is that the chasing one? I don't know if it's good or bad in that game but WWE games have it and I can't buy a submission or an escape on there, I have to use the simple system. Dunno if it's me or if it's just bad.

Yep thats the chasing one. Keep in mind its better than Undisputed 2's system (which was the absolute worst) but I though UD3's sub system wasnt much better.

The best ive seen is EA MMA and thats far from perfect.

[Kingslayer04]

Re: Situation-specific grappling and submissions

So lets break down what this requires:

- New animations and mo cap focusing solely on the step by step of each submission. Now the current animations already do this to a point but based on your descriptions, I think the animations would need to be more incremental to show the squeezing and the turning.

- New camera when subs are locked in. You would need to be able to observe the intricacies of each adjustment and a wide camera angle would not be able to pick that up as easily.

- This is the biggest one. I play Madden. When I play I dont use the hot routes or line adjustments when on offense. I just play. I know what hot routes are. I know why I would use line adjustments. I just dont ever use them because that level of realism isnt needed for a game that I just like to pick up and play. The good news is i can still be successful at the game without using those features.

Here you are asking for every player to study a tutorial and learn what you need to do to either advance or defend a submission and there are 28 different submissions in the game. If you dont learn them, you are at a serious disadvantage when it comes to winning in a fight. That goes for online or offline.

Now you may say "How about two control schemes? Simple submissions and the new system." That could work but my question for you is: What system do you think the average player will choose? I think it would be simple submissions because its straight forward.

So if most use simple submissions, why would the dev team spend time and resources to develop a system that will be a challenge to learn and that most people wont use?

Yeah, I understand. That's what the thread was for, to discuss possibilities. I see why it can be too complex though.

[aholbert32]

Re: Situation-specific grappling and submissions

Yeah, I understand. That's what the thread was for, to discuss possibilities. I see why it can be too complex though.

I think the only possibility would be for on-screen prompts to show you what directions to push in order to increase pressure or escape at each stage. The issue that comes with that is that breaks immersion but I'd argue it breaks it less than the current full screen sub system.

[Kingslayer04]

Re: Situation-specific grappling and submissions

I think the only possibility would be for on-screen prompts to show you what directions to push in order to increase pressure or escape at each stage. The issue that comes with that is that breaks immersion but I'd argue it breaks it less than the current full screen sub system.

Yeah, I did think of something like that too, or something QTE -like, but I know people hate those and I'm not sure I want them either, so I didn't suggest it. The most important thing is defending during the submission itself and somehow having to remain calm and making the correct decisions in a tight situation. Also subbing people without them having to be gassed.

[TheRizzzle]

Re: Situation-specific grappling and submissions

All I know is recently I can't escape a submission against the computer to save my life.

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[Phillyboi207]

Re: Situation-specific grappling and submissions

I just want transition based subs

Let them keep all the current animations, add some additional ones for counters but let everything be based on what direction you choose to move.

[Kingslayer04]

Re: Situation-specific grappling and submissions

I just want transition based subs

Let them keep all the current animations, add some additional ones for counters but let everything be based on what direction you choose to move.

So, say, a guy moves left and that leaves an opening for a specific sub? Sort of like that?


Edit: @aholbert32, it doesn't need to be a specific action for each sub, I'm basically thinking out loud in this thread. It could be only two different approaches: say, one for Choke subs, and one for Joint subs.

[Phillyboi207]

Re: Situation-specific grappling and submissions

So, say, a guy moves left and that leaves an opening for a specific sub? Sort of like that?


Edit: @aholbert32, it doesn't need to be a specific action for each sub, I'm basically thinking out loud in this thread. It could be only two different approaches: say, one for Choke subs, and one for Joint subs.

Pretty much the way you can go into a guillotine when your opponent stands from bottom sprawl.

Just as an example

Your opponent shoots a TD. You time the guillotine reversal. The sub initiates, now he has the options of trying to transition in different directions to fight it, while you have to correctly assess his defense and adjust accordingly.

I’d love for the transition speeds to be essentially doubled here so locking up subs is less about denying transitions and more about correctly finishing a sequence of transitions. Tbh all of grappling should be like that. The way postering up stops the momemtum roll in FG.

Hopefully they add minor transitions as well so you can do things like fight hands, tuck the chin, step/roll to specific sides ect.

There’s so much depth to be added and for grappling the D-pad/L stick offer a lot more room for button schematics.

Here’s a video detailing some of the counters(go to about 40 secs).

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/8TsrMk-cwHs" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Can you imagine a system where grapplings involves constant transitions minor vs major with occasional modified (muscle or special) transitions? It’d be just as fast paced and varied as the striking.