Endless Piggy Back, Clinching and takedown spam

[NEWSS]

Re: Endless Piggy Back, Clinching and takedown spam

Regarding the clinch spam issue, watch Martial mind fight against O'Malley (from 18.37) and his comments after the fight

https://youtu.be/HTlpnmyVigE

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[Windtear]

Re: Endless Piggy Back, Clinching and takedown spam

You write this as if you have no options against the clinch. You can punish your opponent both during the attempt and after you've been grabbed. Sure, things about the clinch could be improved, but you're not just a helpless victim.

UFC 4 is a lot more forgiving to the defender than the last game was. The only difference is that most people just held you against the cage before, but now they can hurt you quickly if given the opportunity.

Anticipate their grabs, move your head, and make them pay! Or better yet, take the fight where you want it. Most players who clinch repeatedly are garbage. Since they feel it's an easy way to inflict damage and you can't stop them, they're not going to change their approach. Take them down, or do something other than what you're doing.

As a fight ender, the clinch is only useful if your opponent is already hurt. You're not going to get KO'd from one knee. With that in mind, stay patient and don't freak out every time you get grabbed. Also, you can always mix in your own clinch every now and then just to let them know they can get the same treatment. This often slows them down a lot.

The LT+RT submissions are very well-tuned, IMO. I think I've been submitted once since the game was released. I mentioned it in another thread, but stamina management is VERY important with subs. If your transitions are getting denied before the sub attempt, you're making it much easier for them to finish you. Don't give them a freebie, stay patient. Dudes just slap on subs without thinking, it's easy to escape them.

We have tools in this game... use them. You also have to stay level-headed, not get emotional during tough spots, and try to figure out what you can do to fix your situation. It can't always be a matter of pointing the finger elsewhere.

And sometimes, your opponent is just better than you. Accept that, move on to the next fight, and take lessons from the L's.

You act like you know what you are talking about.

fact check no.1, there isn't even a clinching deny, not even a half *** one like UFC 3, period, the receiving end had no choice but force to connect into the clinching position, that alone is utterly wrong in any fighting game and made it extremely exploitable

fact check no.2 "you can punish your opponent during & after clinching" You don't seem to understand how this broken mechanic work, can you hit back and get out? sure, but at what cost? for one, clinching ignore punches most of time, and then no matter how fast you get out, initiator always able to land 1 or 2 punches on you before you get out and he will always have the advantage in a. stamina drain b. damage dealt c. able to repeat as many times and mix it up with punches.

"Anticipate their grabs, move your head, and make them pay!" lol! and then your lean head caught a hook, you still don't seem to get the point. any move should have a deny or counter, no moves need to ask the other player to do risky unorthodox moves just to avoid a very spamable tactic, yes you may avoid one dimension spammer if that's all they do, but any spammer with half a brain will let you pay with head lean. Add a clinching deny is the minimal requirement, and they forgot to add it.

cheesy mechanic encourage cheesy tactic & play style, in UFC 4, it's full of it, you don't even need to look for it.

Sound like you only fought tomato cans who only spam one move at time, until you get into top 200 to see how people exploit the poorly implemented mechanic. The point is add a deny to every offense move is the minimal requirement for any MMA games, yet take down/clinching offense doesn't take 2 brain cells to execute with little chance of failing. yet to fence off or defend a single leg take down took extreme precision and timing, and you can't prevent them from doing this over and over.

[Windtear]

Re: Endless Piggy Back, Clinching and takedown spam

Don't paraphrase me and then make your rebuttal based on how you wrote it. At least quote me accurately.

1. "Held against the cage was worst." I mentioned people holding you against the cage in UFC 3 to contrast the options that we have in this game. People complained about the clinch because it was such a static and uninteresting position. Whether you feel that there should be more stamina drain in the clinch in UFC 4 is something else to talk about, but that's not where I was going with that.

2. "Just dodge it bro." No, I said move your head. All you have to do is flick the stick to avoid getting grabbed. So if your opponent is being predictable you can anticipate that. And while dodging and swaying is another discussion, both of those are effective tools as well. Like everything else in this game, you can't do them willy nilly and expect to have great results. But that's what it seems like a lot of you want.

3. "Just do the same thing back to them or take them down." You guys realize this is an MMA game right? You play this **** under some false illusion that everyone should fight you in the way that you see fit. I didn't say become a super spammer, I said mix in clinches and takedowns. I don't understand why that doesn't make sense.

Minus having lag or someone timing their clinches very well, getting grabbed shouldn't be a death sentence. Do something to better your situation. Use all of the tools that you have available.

And before you say that I'm some sort of cheeser, that's far from the case. I've just played this game enough and have had enough success to know that a lot of what you guys complain isn't the sky falling.

Grats, miss the whole point altogether, we were talk about the balance issue with this game and you made it sound like using "skillz" to overcame broken mechanic, which completely the whole point of this post, and btw, you don't sound very skilled or know much about these mechanics.

Reason I made t his post? = Every fighting game with MP balance in mind should have risk & reward system in place, that's the minimal requirement or no one gonna take it seriously, UFC 1-4 averaged out 3.5/10 in user reviews for a reason. and 7.5 was the lowest user score for UFC undisputed.

"1, People complained about the clinch because it was such a static and uninteresting position. Whether you feel that there should be more stamina drain in the clinch in UFC 4 is something else to talk about, but that's not where I was going with that. ":

how laughable, did you realize you just suggested that your definition of "realism" should put as a higher priority than gameplay balance?


"2. No, I said move your head." Again, you missed the whole point from him, 1. it's a very risky move against a smart spammer, you can catch a hook instead 2. why should defender of a spammable/undeniable move to put to the risk to avoid it? the risk should be on the other side.

All there need is just a clinching deny with correct timing requirement.


3. "You guys realize this is an MMA game right? You play this **** under some false illusion that everyone should fight you in the way that you see fit."

yes this is an MMA game, EXACTLY, that's why every player should able to have the right to defend themselves again takedown/clinching/overhand or any moves currently with no deny mechanic in place, this is not a wrestling/bjj sim. at moment, whoever does clinching or takedown will always force the other player into his play style with no options to counter.

I'm not sure if you will ever get it, this thread "I got da skillz to avoid diz once or twice"(especially when you don't seem to be very good) it's about game balance on macro level

[Pappy Knuckles]

Re: Endless Piggy Back, Clinching and takedown spam

You act like you know what you are talking about.

fact check no.1, there isn't even a clinching deny, not even a half *** one like UFC 3, period, the receiving end had no choice but force to connect into the clinching position, that alone is utterly wrong in any fighting game and made it extremely exploitable

fact check no.2 "you can punish your opponent during & after clinching" You don't seem to understand how this broken mechanic work, can you hit back and get out? sure, but at what cost? for one, clinching ignore punches most of time, and then no matter how fast you get out, initiator always able to land 1 or 2 punches on you before you get out and he will always have the advantage in a. stamina drain b. damage dealt c. able to repeat as many times and mix it up with punches.

"Anticipate their grabs, move your head, and make them pay!" lol! and then your lean head caught a hook, you still don't seem to get the point. any move should have a deny or counter, no moves need to ask the other player to do risky unorthodox moves just to avoid a very spamable tactic, yes you may avoid one dimension spammer if that's all they do, but any spammer with half a brain will let you pay with head lean. Add a clinching deny is the minimal requirement, and they forgot to add it.

cheesy mechanic encourage cheesy tactic & play style, in UFC 4, it's full of it, you don't even need to look for it.

Sound like you only fought tomato cans who only spam one move at time, until you get into top 200 to see how people exploit the poorly implemented mechanic. The point is add a deny to every offense move is the minimal requirement for any MMA games, yet take down/clinching offense doesn't take 2 brain cells to execute with little chance of failing. yet to fence off or defend a single leg take down took extreme precision and timing, and you can't prevent them from doing this over and over.

fact check no.1, there isn't even a clinching deny, not even a half *** one like UFC 3, period

The same push mechanic (RT+ lead uppercut) that was in UFC 3 can be used to deny the clinch. It's effective at jab range and slightly inside of it. Your opponent's glove can be touching the back of your neck and you'll still get the denial. So there's your "half-*** one". If that was given a larger denial window for clinches in close range, it would be very serviceable.


fact check no.2 "you can punish your opponent during & after clinching"

I never said that defending clinches against a skilled and determined user was easy. I just emphasized that you have options at your disposal. Would I like a clinch denial like the previous games? Sure, but I haven't felt handicapped due to a lack of it. Just because someone grabs you doesn't mean they won that battle. They can initiate the clinch and still get knocked out.

I like how you assume that I'm an awful player. Interesting.

Grats, miss the whole point altogether, we were talk about the balance issue with this game and you made it sound like using "skillz" to overcame broken mechanic, which completely the whole point of this post, and btw, you don't sound very skilled or know much about these mechanics.

Reason I made t his post? = Every fighting game with MP balance in mind should have risk & reward system in place, that's the minimal requirement or no one gonna take it seriously, UFC 1-4 averaged out 3.5/10 in user reviews for a reason. and 7.5 was the lowest user score for UFC undisputed.

"1, People complained about the clinch because it was such a static and uninteresting position. Whether you feel that there should be more stamina drain in the clinch in UFC 4 is something else to talk about, but that's not where I was going with that. ":

how laughable, did you realize you just suggested that your definition of "realism" should put as a higher priority than gameplay balance?


"2. No, I said move your head." Again, you missed the whole point from him, 1. it's a very risky move against a smart spammer, you can catch a hook instead 2. why should defender of a spammable/undeniable move to put to the risk to avoid it? the risk should be on the other side.

All there need is just a clinching deny with correct timing requirement.


3. "You guys realize this is an MMA game right? You play this **** under some false illusion that everyone should fight you in the way that you see fit."

yes this is an MMA game, EXACTLY, that's why every player should able to have the right to defend themselves again takedown/clinching/overhand or any moves currently with no deny mechanic in place, this is not a wrestling/bjj sim. at moment, whoever does clinching or takedown will always force the other player into his play style with no options to counter.

I'm not sure if you will ever get it, this thread "I got da skillz to avoid diz once or twice"(especially when you don't seem to be very good) it's about game balance on macro level

I take it that English is your second language? I didn't miss the point of your thread, I just chose to respond to two parts of it.

1. The clinch is difficult to deny.
2. The LT+RT sub mechanic is too easy for the attacker.

Also, I couldn't care less about how these games are rated.

how laughable, did you realize you just suggested that your definition of "realism" should put as a higher priority than gameplay balance?

I don't get the point you're trying to make here. I didn't agree or disagree with the point about the stamina drain. I was just emphasizing the dynamic nature of the clinch.


All there need is just a clinching deny with correct timing requirement.

I never disagreed with this.

yes this is an MMA game, EXACTLY, that's why every player should able to have the right to defend themselves again takedown/clinching/overhand or any moves currently with no deny mechanic in place, this is not a wrestling/bjj sim. at moment, whoever does clinching or takedown will always force the other player into his play style with no options to counter.

You can defend yourself, but right now you have to rely on more than just your ability to deny a clinch. We have more than enough tools to do that. If or when they add the new mechanic, we'll have another one.

[NEWSS]

Re: Endless Piggy Back, Clinching and takedown spam

fact check no.1, there isn't even a clinching deny, not even a half *** one like UFC 3, period

The same push mechanic (RT+ lead uppercut) that was in UFC 3 can be used to deny the clinch. It's effective at jab range and slightly inside of it. Your opponent's glove can be touching the back of your neck and you'll still get the denial. So there's your "half-*** one". If that was given a larger denial window for clinches in close range, it would be very serviceable.


fact check no.2 "you can punish your opponent during & after clinching"

I never said that defending clinches against a skilled and determined user was easy. I just emphasized that you have options at your disposal. Would I like a clinch denial like the previous games? Sure, but I haven't felt handicapped due to a lack of it. Just because someone grabs you doesn't mean they won that battle. They can initiate the clinch and still get knocked out.

I like how you assume that I'm an awful player. Interesting.



I take it that English is your second language? I didn't miss the point of your thread, I just chose to respond to two parts of it.

1. The clinch is difficult to deny.
2. The LT+RT sub mechanic is too easy for the attacker.

Also, I couldn't care less about how these games are rated.

how laughable, did you realize you just suggested that your definition of "realism" should put as a higher priority than gameplay balance?

I don't get the point you're trying to make here. I didn't agree or disagree with the point about the stamina drain. I was just emphasizing the dynamic nature of the clinch.


All there need is just a clinching deny with correct timing requirement.

I never disagreed with this.

yes this is an MMA game, EXACTLY, that's why every player should able to have the right to defend themselves again takedown/clinching/overhand or any moves currently with no deny mechanic in place, this is not a wrestling/bjj sim. at moment, whoever does clinching or takedown will always force the other player into his play style with no options to counter.

You can defend yourself, but right now you have to rely on more than just your ability to deny a clinch. We have more than enough tools to do that. If or when they add the new mechanic, we'll have another one.

I disagree, right now the clinch is very unbalanced

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[Pappy Knuckles]

Re: Endless Piggy Back, Clinching and takedown spam

I disagree, right now the clinch is very unbalanced

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Beyond having difficulty denying it?

Enviado desde mi Pixel 3a XL mediante Tapatalk

[NEWSS]

Re: Endless Piggy Back, Clinching and takedown spam

Beyond having difficulty denying it?

Enviado desde mi Pixel 3a XL mediante Tapatalk

Very unbalanced in terms of risk/reward.
I basically agree with what stated by Martial mind in his latest video, which I posted above

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[Windtear]

Re: Endless Piggy Back, Clinching and takedown spam

The same push mechanic (RT+ lead uppercut) that was in UFC 3 can be used to deny the clinch.

Wrong again, it's not a deny, it's like saying, "time overhand in the right moment can break the clinch", in UFC 3, R1+R1 + L trigger up is a clinch deny, it works the moment AFTER clinch connected,. I don't see why UFC 4 or any MMA game should rid of this move or denies for any moves. no one should forced to be in a position with no options to get out.

I never said that defending clinches against a skilled and determined user was easy. I just emphasized that you have options at your disposal.

Again, all available options so far will put you in disadvantage, on score board, on hp bar, on stamina. Unless you adapt the same tactic, which would make the whole match a joke. The point is, all players should able to deny to be in clinching position when timed right, and there's no such option so far.

That YT video from NEWSS was an excellent example, that guy was a good player, probably top 100, and he can't fight clean due to how easily clinching is exploited.

I like how you assume that I'm an awful player. Interesting.

Only because for the whole time, you made it sound like it's all about you, as if you are the only one knows how to break those exploits with those risky moves you suggested and it's ok use those over efficient moves relentlessly over and over without worry about any consequence.

I take it that English is your second language? I didn't miss the point of your thread, I just chose to respond to two parts of it.

It is, but I take that logic isn't your second nature.

1. The clinch is difficult to deny.
2. The LT+RT sub mechanic is too easy for the attacker.

Also, I couldn't care less about how these games are rated.

lol! ok, so you just openly admitted that ->
"1. balance it's breaking"
"2. confirmed balance is breaking"

As you said, you don't give a crap about game balance and why majority players don't like it as long as you can keep exploiting the mechnic and enjoy your cheesy tactic. Again, made it all about YOU. sorry, you and those cheesers aren't the only people buying and playing the game.

I don't get the point you're trying to make here. I didn't agree or disagree with the point about the stamina drain. I was just emphasizing the dynamic nature of the clinch.

I repeat what NEWSS said "risk & reward is unbalanced" that's the very reality of clinching/take down/piggy back/R1R2 submission in UFC 4

[tomitomitomi]

Re: Endless Piggy Back, Clinching and takedown spam

lol! ok, so you just openly admitted that ->
"1. balance it's breaking"
"2. confirmed balance is breaking"

No he didn't?

[Pappy Knuckles]

Re: Endless Piggy Back, Clinching and takedown spam

Wrong again, it's not a deny, it's like saying, "time overhand in the right moment can break the clinch", in UFC 3, R1+R1 + L trigger up is a clinch deny, it works the moment AFTER clinch connected,. I don't see why UFC 4 or any MMA game should rid of this move or denies for any moves. no one should forced to be in a position with no options to get out.




Again, all available options so far will put you in disadvantage, on score board, on hp bar, on stamina. Unless you adapt the same tactic, which would make the whole match a joke. The point is, all players should able to deny to be in clinching position when timed right, and there's no such option so far.

That YT video from NEWSS was an excellent example, that guy was a good player, probably top 100, and he can't fight clean due to how easily clinching is exploited.



Only because for the whole time, you made it sound like it's all about you, as if you are the only one knows how to break those exploits with those risky moves you suggested and it's ok use those over efficient moves relentlessly over and over without worry about any consequence.



It is, but I take that logic isn't your second nature.




lol! ok, so you just openly admitted that ->
"1. balance it's breaking"
"2. confirmed balance is breaking"

As you said, you don't give a crap about game balance and why majority players don't like it as long as you can keep exploiting the mechnic and enjoy your cheesy tactic. Again, made it all about YOU. sorry, you and those cheesers aren't the only people buying and playing the game.






I repeat what NEWSS said "risk & reward is unbalanced" that's the very reality of clinching/take down/piggy back/R1R2 submission in UFC 4

I think you read whatever I type and come up to your own conclusions. First of all, I didn't say the clinch denial mechanic from UFC 3 could be used in UFC 4. I know very well that we don't have it. I said that we could use the push mechanic, which is something else.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghwsgbpPynE

Again, the push mechanic can be used at jab range with good success. However, it's very difficult (almost impossible) to deny when someone is in closer proximity to you. So you might push the opponent away at first, but if he keeps moving forward he'll most likely grab you. The push window is much smaller for breaking the clinch than what we'd use in UFC 3, so it's not something you can use for every situation.

Also, if your opponent reaches out and you walk toward his hand it will pull you in the rest of the way. I'm not a fan of that at all -- it's like a suction cup. Staying just outside of jab range is super important.

I watched Martial Mind's video. I know he's a very good player and having to fight someone like that isn't a fun experience. However, I was surprised that he never moved his head offline during any of those attempts. You can see the reach coming at a proper distance. But I know it's easier to say that as a spectator than dealing with it in the heat of battle.

I've done nothing but speak with logic this entire conversation. You're the one twisting my words and painting false pictures. You don't know anything about me, how I play, or what I'd like this game to be. I just offered solutions based on my own personal experience. That's all I can do.

I've faced spammers, but not to a degree where it's caused me enough stress to be concerned. Maybe in the upper echelon of ranked that's all you see? I wouldn't know since I don't spend much time in that mode.

[NEWSS]

Re: Endless Piggy Back, Clinching and takedown spam

This is Dmart rage quitting due to clinch spam.

https://youtu.be/7uIoDQlk37k

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[Windtear]

Re: Endless Piggy Back, Clinching and takedown spam

I think you read whatever I type and come up to your own conclusions. First of all, I didn't say the clinch denial mechanic from UFC 3 could be used in UFC 4. I know very well that we don't have it. I said that we could use the push mechanic, which is something else.

Nope, because you tried to came up with some self righteous none sense to justify a highly exploitable move(alone with other unbalanced mechanics) without able to back your opinion with logic and facts and then tried to call it a day. These problems are widely acknowledged by majority players on this forum and by other players on the net, regardless what you think.


But funny enough, half of your post actually restated my point and was in agreement while other half of your post still in hard denial mode and you keep using some dream scenario as if your opponent should execute every move on your command.

Again, the push mechanic can be used at jab range with good success. However, it's very difficult (almost impossible) to deny when someone is in closer proximity to you. So you might push the opponent away at first, but if he keeps moving forward he'll most likely grab you. The push window is much smaller for breaking the clinch than what we'd use in UFC 3, so it's not something you can use for every situation.

Will work perfectly on a cloud cho cho land, where your opponent execute every move based on what you wanted them to, you can counter everything and have 100% win rate. Now back to reality. spammers are human too, who also think and react based on the fight situation

This move don't have a deny once it connects, that's the problem everyone's talking about in case if you still haven't noticed..... have a deny key shortly after it connects(like UFC3) is the most reasonable thing to have.

Also, if your opponent reaches out and you walk toward his hand it will pull you in the rest of the way. I'm not a fan of that at all -- it's like a suction cup. Staying just outside of jab range is super important.

Again, another common scenario most ppl on here aware, we are talking about a stop/punish mechanics on ppl use these moves too many times without worry about any risk.

I watched Martial Mind's video. I know he's a very good player and having to fight someone like that isn't a fun experience. However, I was surprised that he never moved his head offline during any of those attempts. You can see the reach coming at a proper distance. But I know it's easier to say that as a spectator than dealing with it in the heat of battle.

As already explained in previous post, lean head will expose you to hooks and uppercuts if the other person is smart, what you thought was a "good counter" isn't really a counter in this kind scenario, most ppl here noticed that.

I'm not sure you will ever get it. but here it is again - "risk & reward balance", risk should always imposed on offenders' side so they will have something to think about before relentlessly spamming it. yet the risk is only on defenders' side, hence, balance issue.

I've faced spammers, but not to a degree where it's caused me enough stress to be concerned. Maybe in the upper echelon of ranked that's all you see? I wouldn't know since I don't spend much time in that mode.

You said it yourself, you can't see what we see, you feeling comfortable because you just play casual and have no sense of game balance because they aren't important to you, but an online competitive game is not about you, it's about the balance on macro level, and so far it's nearly none exist. that's why so many people are pissed off at UFC 4.

[FivoSmoothy]

Re: Endless Piggy Back, Clinching and takedown spam

I miss the days where I can block someone’s transition in the clinch and get a takedown
When I could get over/under and strike without leaving the clinch or get the back clinch and strike to the head without exiting.

[Windtear]

Re: Endless Piggy Back, Clinching and takedown spam

I miss the days where I can block someone’s transition in the clinch and get a takedown
When I could get over/under and strike without leaving the clinch or get the back clinch and strike to the head without exiting.

Unfortunately as long as these games still sell under UFC license to none competitive players who think bread styles on Paul Felder is more important than gameplay balance. EA sports will never hire component team to develop the franchise. These problems will never looked at.

[NewSkiLLZZ]

Re: Endless Piggy Back, Clinching and takedown spam

I miss the days where I can block someone’s transition in the clinch and get a takedown
When I could get over/under and strike without leaving the clinch or get the back clinch and strike to the head without exiting.

Please stop talking like you aren't part of the problem. You spam 20 takedowns a match only to get knocked out.

I even messaged you after the fight what are you going to do when they patch stamina for takedowns as you legit attempted over 20 on me to stuff like 17 of them. You responded, "more TD". You are bad at this game.

Anyways, the simple option for clinch is either have a deny button which actually drains stamina or have their vulnerbility the same as when someone ducks their head into an uppercut. Which would have more rocks as the person clinching is literally leaving themselves wide open leaning in to grab you. Would stop a lot of this dumb *** non sense.