Re: Are the forums indicative of the popularity of UFC 4?
I also appreciate the civil discussion, though I wasn't expecting anything less to be honest. That's also a very thorough post, let's see how I go about addressing it.
To be honest, I use the "hardcore" label only because the distinction is simpler that way, the binary "casual/hardcore" distinction. I understand there are various subtypes in either category. I'll also say I don't consider myself a diehard fan, even though I probably fit under a lot of the "hardcore" subtypes. But my interest in MMA seems to be waning these days. I probably digress, I don't know, but you asked.
I wouldn't go as far as saying either category of player is more important. I mean, as a person who loves to replicate what they see on TV as much as possible, I definitely lean towards the realism crowd, but I do understand the importance of a game being "fun", of accessibility, and ultimately - what a business is. Listen, it was never my intention to disregard the casual fan. I've always wanted the game to be as fun as possible to either category of player and to be really successful (which means for casuals to buy it). I'd like a big playerbase. I've always been willing to make compromises in my suggestions and demands during UFC 3 and UFC 4, but to see almost none of our suggestions come to fruition in UFC 4 - that's disappointing to say the least. Especially considering what we got instead - lots and lots of superficiality, and little else.
First of all, I appreciate the willingness to share what happened. Good to hear the right choice was eventually made, but it is rather concerning to hear that it was so close to happening in the first place. Still, the worst part of this is the time and resources taking on the wrong path cost you and it all stemmed from you trying to oversimplify things. Here's a question - if you hadn't wasted so much time on this, what would you have focused on instead?
My biggest issue has been with UFC 4, not with any of the previous instalments. I mean, I had an issue with UFC 2 but UFC 3 blew those away. As for the GC-ers... I feel their role has largely (not fully) been reduced to damage control for this last one, unfortunately. Still, it's good that they're there and I appreciate those of them who champion realism.
This is commendable, no two ways about it.
Again, I'd agree for UFC 3 and its post-launch support but not for UFC 4 - yes, you've added quite a big deal with the grappling exchanges but I also feel you've taken plenty out as well, and not an insignificant part either.
I disagree, precisely because of the various subtypes of players under the "casual" banner. I'm not even sure if that's correct, actually - everybody cares about eye-candy and things looking good. As for the individual styles - I'll have to disagree with that. Yes, there are some moves and motions that are fighter-specific but for the most part everyone feels the same. This has been a dominant topic in most of my posts on here. Part of the problem here arises from your gameplay choices regarding damage and stamina. It's also 2020 so I can't really applaud any game for comparing its animations to games on older systems or older iteration of its own series. It's new, it's supposed to be better.
While commendable, especially the UFC 3 support, I think it was a must if the game was to be playable. Of course, some really significant gameplay additions were made that weren't really fixes, they were brand new features. Can't comment on UFC 4's balance changes but given that there were about 15 new fighters, I'd say adding more of those is also a must.
See, I can disagree. Career changed a fair bit from 2 to 3, not from 3 to 4. Either way, it's quite shallow, scripted and uninspired. Coach Davis disappears for no reason (not that he's great anyway) the AI is glitchy and strikes when it should grapple and vice-versa...there are plenty of issues like that, I don't have the time to list them all. I think you've wasted your time on all that as well, as expensive as it was. But I'm not here to help improve the game anymore, I'm not here for that. Yes, some changes were made but ultimately it's barren. What reason does the player have to do another Career run?
Sure, I don't know about the team's thought processes. I can only assume and go by what you tell me. But after after seeing the product itself and EA's approach regarding other titles, I have no reason to believe that the corporation cares about anything other than to maximise their profits. There's nothing you can say that will change my mind unless the game itself shows me. Maybe UFC 4, as disappointing as it is, was the necessary bitter pill to swallow and UFC 5 will be stacked to the brim with depth and quality content. I'm skeptical, but maybe. Until I see that, my opinion remains the same. At this point I don't really care what the reasoning is if that doesn't happen, be it the desire on the developers' part or the lack of funding from EA. What I want to see is the product speaking for you.
I explained why I find it pointless. Yes, techincally you do read all the feedback, yes, it reaches the rest of the team. But since a almost none of the suggestions on here, a hardcore forum, made it to UFC 4, suggestions of all kinds in multiple areas, I have no reason to believe it matters. Now, it did for UFC 3. For UFC 4 people had to post for months to get the stamina tax increased just a little bit, something we already had to to for months for UFC 3. That's what I meant by progress erased in one fell swoop. What I'm seeing is an almost complete disregard for the non-casual fan. Again, until I see significant improvements in UFC 5 that cater specifically to the hardcore fans (since 4 caters mostly to the casual type) to balance things out, my stance remains what it is. If not gameplay, I'm certainly talking in-depth, quality modes. Whether your team is capable of producing those is a different matter altogether. Yes, "quality is subjective", but if you are to take this piece of advice into account, I believe you'll have to swallow this kind of response this time around.
I can see that you think very highly of your work. There's nothing wrong with being proud of certain accomplishments and I also appreciate the in-depth post, but the issues I have with the game go way beyond which target group you're trying to appease, and at times I think you think too highly of it. Like I said, I have nothing against casuals playing the game, but the game is plagued by a myriad of glitches that trouble even them, and also plagued by many downright poor decisions on your part. All of those give off a very, very bad impression and have resulted in an overall poor game. A game that had a 2-year development cycle, mind you. I'm not blind to the things you listed in your defence. I know about them and recognise them, and just addressed them, but I don't feel they overrule what I said. If anything, the control scheme debacle only illustrates how your orginal desire to oversimplify things came to bite you in the *** in my eyes. It should also be clear that my gripes are with UFC 4, whereas many of the things you listed encompass the whole series.
I'll end this by saying this again: while I appreciate you taking the time to respond so thoroughly, your product speaks louder than you do. Make of that what you will.
I also appreciate the civil discussion, though I wasn't expecting anything less to be honest. That's also a very thorough post, let's see how I go about addressing it.
This is honestly a really interesting point. What is a hardcore player to you? What about that player makes them hardcore, and what implications does that have? Is it simply someone who is willing to put X hours into the game? Someone who pre-orders? Someone who knows the sport inside and out? Someone who's super competitive and skilled? Someone who runs their own universe mode in spreasheets? Someone who builds 50+ CAFs? Someone who buys the game simply because it's a new MMA experience?
What is it that makes a player hardcore, and what does the game owe those people over the 'casuals' who don't fall into that group but buy the game just the same?
Personally, I think the team's goal is actually to appeal to casuals so they buy the game, but have a game that's deep and engrossing enough that it turns them into hardcores, or returning players. That means the veneer is shiny but the core experience is actually built for various flavor of hardcore. And I very much believe that is the larger philosophy that the team works on. We need to pair accessibility and ease of access with room to grow and depth. That is very, very hard to do and we're trying to do it on a relatively new sports franchise with a relatively small resource budget.
What is it that makes a player hardcore, and what does the game owe those people over the 'casuals' who don't fall into that group but buy the game just the same?
Personally, I think the team's goal is actually to appeal to casuals so they buy the game, but have a game that's deep and engrossing enough that it turns them into hardcores, or returning players. That means the veneer is shiny but the core experience is actually built for various flavor of hardcore. And I very much believe that is the larger philosophy that the team works on. We need to pair accessibility and ease of access with room to grow and depth. That is very, very hard to do and we're trying to do it on a relatively new sports franchise with a relatively small resource budget.
I wouldn't go as far as saying either category of player is more important. I mean, as a person who loves to replicate what they see on TV as much as possible, I definitely lean towards the realism crowd, but I do understand the importance of a game being "fun", of accessibility, and ultimately - what a business is. Listen, it was never my intention to disregard the casual fan. I've always wanted the game to be as fun as possible to either category of player and to be really successful (which means for casuals to buy it). I'd like a big playerbase. I've always been willing to make compromises in my suggestions and demands during UFC 3 and UFC 4, but to see almost none of our suggestions come to fruition in UFC 4 - that's disappointing to say the least. Especially considering what we got instead - lots and lots of superficiality, and little else.
We were planning to revamp the ground game. This took many ideas and forms, but boiled down to one major concept: most people don't know BJJ. They don't care to know, and they don't want to know. Hardcores and casuals alike. We needed to simplify an incredibly complex and information heavy experience into something players could intuitively understand and ideally learn from. This is where the simplified grapple assist controls eventually spawned from. The scary thing that came far too close to fruition for almost every dev's liking was that for some time, assist controls were planned to be the ONLY form of grappling. A death sentence.... thankfully, our own internal feedback was backed by outrage and shock by the GCs and we were able to convince leadership to not go that route. Keep in mind, this was still entirely within the UFC dev team, not 'big bad EA' above us.
Now, this whole process had a few downsides all the same. We had months of different prototypes and designs of how to simplify things, as well as how to keep the old system alive during those prototypes incase we ever convinced leadership to not gut the old system (and thank RNGesus we did...). However, all the dev work that went into these designs, many of them quite good in their own right, meant the devs involved were effectively working on things that never got into the final game. This is very common in any creative industry, but this was likely one of the larger prototype churns UFC has ever had and it means the final game has less final content given the time spent building it. Diablo III was in production for over 8 years! Still a pretty small game when it came out... that is simply the nature of our jobs.
Now, this whole process had a few downsides all the same. We had months of different prototypes and designs of how to simplify things, as well as how to keep the old system alive during those prototypes incase we ever convinced leadership to not gut the old system (and thank RNGesus we did...). However, all the dev work that went into these designs, many of them quite good in their own right, meant the devs involved were effectively working on things that never got into the final game. This is very common in any creative industry, but this was likely one of the larger prototype churns UFC has ever had and it means the final game has less final content given the time spent building it. Diablo III was in production for over 8 years! Still a pretty small game when it came out... that is simply the nature of our jobs.
-We've had a GC program since UFC 1, comprised almost entirely of different flavors of hardcore fans. We've talked to them almost daily, and flown them to the studio a few times for in-depth back and forth and feedback.
-We have community interaction to a level that verrry few games ever do. (Hello!)
-We've overhauled major gameplay systems every single iteration of the game, and always strived to drive them to a more realistic and complex representation of the actual sport.
-We have a level of animation quality and depth for different fighters and styles that no previous MMA game has ever had. Casuals don't see these things, and they certainly don't buy the game because of it. This is 100% hardcore fanfare.
-We patch our games post-launch more frequently and with more content than perhaps any sports game, while also having one of the smallest teams. That is easily more in favor of hardcores than casuals, and most of the changes themselves are in fact based on community feedback or features we wanted in the base game but weren't able to get to in time.
-Most of our modes resources actually go into career and online, and career mode has evolved significantly each iteration. Like it or not, you cannot reasonably deny that it has changed a lot. The amount of work that goes into it is the single greatest expenditure of our development as far as I know. Is it on the level of the story modes in FIFA or Madden? No, but you would blanche at knowing how expensive those were, and how big the teams were to build those experiences alone. Like... educated guess, those cost more than our entire game did.
You don't have to know anything about any of us to have reasonable opinions of the product. But you sure as hell don't know about our processes. Do you know what astronauts go through simply because you've seen a rocket go into space before? You can comment on how cool the ship is, but I'll be damned if I listen to a 'valid opinion' about the engineering of the ship or the piloting from someone who's never touched the stuff... that... that is ridiculous
I had bolded a few very specific parts in your message in which this was directed, and I stand by it. It's toxic and malicious to the continuation of this community. Personally, I don't want it here. What possible purpose is there in a community if the message circulating inside of it is that it's pointless and people should feel like they're wasting their time by being there... it's destructive and simply untrue. Pick your words more wisely if that's not what you mean, because it is what you said.
I can see that you think very highly of your work. There's nothing wrong with being proud of certain accomplishments and I also appreciate the in-depth post, but the issues I have with the game go way beyond which target group you're trying to appease, and at times I think you think too highly of it. Like I said, I have nothing against casuals playing the game, but the game is plagued by a myriad of glitches that trouble even them, and also plagued by many downright poor decisions on your part. All of those give off a very, very bad impression and have resulted in an overall poor game. A game that had a 2-year development cycle, mind you. I'm not blind to the things you listed in your defence. I know about them and recognise them, and just addressed them, but I don't feel they overrule what I said. If anything, the control scheme debacle only illustrates how your orginal desire to oversimplify things came to bite you in the *** in my eyes. It should also be clear that my gripes are with UFC 4, whereas many of the things you listed encompass the whole series.
I'll end this by saying this again: while I appreciate you taking the time to respond so thoroughly, your product speaks louder than you do. Make of that what you will.
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