Affliction 3 - Fedor v. Barnett

[filmguy1974]

Re: Affliction 3 - Fedor v. Barnett

Barnett's ranking is based more on his legacy than anything else. I'm sure Big Nog and Crocop would have their old rankings if they were able to fight the Jeff Monsons and Hidehiko Yoshidas of the world instead of going to the UFC.

I don't think this fight is pointless, but I certainly wish it would have happened three years ago.

I know what you're saying here- but there's no real reason to believe that the 2009 version of JB is any different than the 2006 version that split two fights with Nog and made it to the finals of the PRIDE GP.

And I'm getting kinda tired of seeing posts that imply that a top HW has to be in the UFC in order to test himself. Right now, 5 of the top 10 HW's are NOT in the UFC. You could make a very good case that Affliction is the best place for a HW to test himself right now, as the top 3 HW's in the world are there. But you're right to point out that he's been fighting chubs since PRIDE was dissolved- I just get the impression that the reason why is that Affliction has been trying to keep Josh in reserve and in a marketable position for a Fedor matchup. What it really comes down to now is making the fight actually happen. If JB isn't fighting Fedor at the next event, then he'd damn well better be fighting either AA or Timmy.

[LP]

Re: Affliction 3 - Fedor v. Barnett

Barnett's ranking is based more on his legacy than anything else. I'm sure Big Nog and Crocop would have their old rankings if they were able to fight the Jeff Monsons and Hidehiko Yoshidas of the world instead of going to the UFC.

I don't think this fight is pointless, but I certainly wish it would have happened three years ago.

Pretty much what I was getting at, but I exaggerated a bit by saying "pointless". Fedor may not destroy him, but there is little doubt that he will win. When he wins, I will not be too impressed. I like Fedor and I think he is a great fighter, but I think he gets too much credit for a record that is inflated by scrubs. When you look at P4P some guys get knocked for losses that are against extremely good fighters. If you fight enough greats, your bound to lose a few.

[SHO]

Re: Affliction 3 - Fedor v. Barnett

Anyone else think this is absolutely pointless? Fedor needs to be in the UFC so he can be challenged. I would rather see a rematch with Arlovski than this.

Yes, because being challenged by lesser HWs is just what he needs.

[filmguy1974]

Re: Affliction 3 - Fedor v. Barnett

Yes, because being challenged by lesser HWs is just what he needs.

Can't help but agree with you. Outside of the new and improved Frank Mir, the UFC's HW division doesn't really have anything of interest for the Russian. He's got better competition right where he is.

[Wet Bandit]

Re: Affliction 3 - Fedor v. Barnett

I know what you're saying here- but there's no real reason to believe that the 2009 version of JB is any different than the 2006 version that split two fights with Nog and made it to the finals of the PRIDE GP.

And there'd be no reason to think Liddell, Wanderlei, Crocop, Rich Franklin, Matt Hughes or any number of other guys were any different than their 2006 versions had they not taken on top competition and proven they're not quite at that level anymore.

And I'm getting kinda tired of seeing posts that imply that a top HW has to be in the UFC in order to test himself. Right now, 5 of the top 10 HW's are NOT in the UFC. You could make a very good case that Affliction is the best place for a HW to test himself right now, as the top 3 HW's in the world are there.

But the heavyweight talent pool in any single organization outside the UFC is very, very shallow so some guys with legacy rankings are never really in danger of losing them. Josh Barnett hasn't been fighting guys like Gabriel Gonzaga or Cheick Kongo, dangerous guys just outside the top 10, any time recently, so he's never been tasked to prove he's still a top 5 heavyweight. And a guy like Andrei Arlovski, whose ranking was a bit unclear after the Sylvia fights and the Werdum fight, has since catapulted his rating back up by picking up a couple solid wins outside the UFC against some scrubs.

That level of competition, that 'almost all these guys are good enough to beat anyone on any given night' level, just isn't there in any organization outside the UFC since Pride shut down.

[Wet Bandit]

Re: Affliction 3 - Fedor v. Barnett

Can't help but agree with you. Outside of the new and improved Frank Mir, the UFC's HW division doesn't really have anything of interest for the Russian. He's got better competition right where he is.

As is clearly indicated by the four minutes combined it took him to beat Arlovski and Sylvia.

[filmguy1974]

Re: Affliction 3 - Fedor v. Barnett

And there'd be no reason to think Liddell, Wanderlei, Crocop, Rich Franklin, Matt Hughes or any number of other guys were any different than their 2006 versions had they not taken on top competition and proven they're not quite at that level anymore.

Sure there would be. Liddell, Crocop, and Hughes are all on the fast track to being 40 years old. Wand was already showing serious signs of fading in 2006. And with Franklin- I'm not sure why you would use him as an example- I see no reason to believe that he's not as good now as he was a few years ago. So he lost to Anderson and Hendo- big deal. He would have lost to those guys in 2006 if he had fought them then.

But the heavyweight talent pool in any single organization outside the UFC is very, very shallow so some guys with legacy rankings are never really in danger of losing them. Josh Barnett hasn't been fighting guys like Gabriel Gonzaga or Cheick Kongo, dangerous guys just outside the top 10, any time recently, so he's never been tasked to prove he's still a top 5 heavyweight. And a guy like Andrei Arlovski, whose ranking was a bit unclear after the Sylvia fights and the Werdum fight, has since catapulted his rating back up by picking up a couple solid wins outside the UFC against some scrubs.

That level of competition, that 'almost all these guys are good enough to beat anyone on any given night' level, just isn't there in any organization outside the UFC since Pride shut down.

I don't see the kind of depth you describe at HW in ANY organization right now, including the UFC. I think that HW is easily the UFC's least interesting and least talented weight class. I see one world-class fighter on top of his game, one genetic freak show with all of four MMA fights under his belt, two legends in the absolute twilight of their careers, and a bunch of journeymen, stiffs, and gatekeeper-level fighters.

[filmguy1974]

Re: Affliction 3 - Fedor v. Barnett

As is clearly indicated by the four minutes combined it took him to beat Arlovski and Sylvia.

Kind of funny that you'd mention that. I distinctly remember reading endless forum posts back in 2005/6 about how AA and Sylvia would crush Fedor and that he was beating up on a bunch of cans in Japan and that he should "test" himself in the UFC.

Now that he's smashed them both- he's still a faker who's beating up on a bunch of cans and he should "test" himself in the UFC.

Brilliant.

[sven]

Re: Affliction 3 - Fedor v. Barnett

Kind of funny that you'd mention that. I distinctly remember reading endless forum posts back in 2005/6 about how AA and Sylvia would crush Fedor and that he was beating up on a bunch of cans in Japan and that he should "test" himself in the UFC.

Now that he's smashed them both- he's still a faker who's beating up on a bunch of cans and he should "test" himself in the UFC.

Brilliant.

Feel free to let us know which people on this forum you saw making those kinds of posts 3 to 4 years ago new guy.....

[Iadf]

Re: Affliction 3 - Fedor v. Barnett

Easy match, lets all hope affliction dies.

[Wet Bandit]

Re: Affliction 3 - Fedor v. Barnett

Sure there would be. Liddell, Crocop, and Hughes are all on the fast track to being 40 years old.

Mikro is 34 and Hughes is 35.

That's hardly over-the-hill when two of top three consensus pound-for-pound fighters in the world are 32 and 34.

Wand was already showing serious signs of fading in 2006.

Then use 2005 as a jumping off point. For the love of god.

And with Franklin- I'm not sure why you would use him as an example- I see no reason to believe that he's not as good now as he was a few years ago.

The point, which you willfully ignored and instead chose to nitpick, is that every single one of those guys, had they spent the last three years fighting scrubs, would still be considered at or near the pinnacle of their weight class.

But instead, they've been fighting top-level competition, and their rankings have taken a hit as a result. Maybe it's because they've lost a step in those three years (Mirko), maybe it's because emerging talents have proven themself to be superior (Hughes), or maybe it's because other fighters elsewhere were just better, but we didn't know it at the time because they enver fought (Franklin).

None of those guys had the luxury of fighting zero top ten guys and keeping their ranking for three years. I doubt any of those guys would have settled for that.

[Wet Bandit]

Re: Affliction 3 - Fedor v. Barnett

Kind of funny that you'd mention that. I distinctly remember reading endless forum posts back in 2005/6 about how AA and Sylvia would crush Fedor and that he was beating up on a bunch of cans in Japan and that he should "test" himself in the UFC.

Now that he's smashed them both- he's still a faker who's beating up on a bunch of cans and he should "test" himself in the UFC.

Brilliant.

Which would be an awesome argument had Fedor fought Sylvia and Arlovski 3-4 years ago.

But he didn't.

What everyone, well, almost everyone, knows is that things can change drastically in that amount of time.

Oh, and by the way, you completely ignored my point again. Is Fedor really fighting where his competition is the best when he beat two of his top three contenders there in 4 minutes combined? You're telling me that Mir, Lesnar, or even Big Nog, who has fought Fedor for 40 minutes without being stopped, wouldn't put up a better fight?

[filmguy1974]

Re: Affliction 3 - Fedor v. Barnett

Feel free to let us know which people on this forum you saw making those kinds of posts 3 to 4 years ago new guy.....

Never said anything about this forum. I was talking about some of the big forums- Sherdog, the OG, etc.

[filmguy1974]

Re: Affliction 3 - Fedor v. Barnett

The point, which you willfully ignored and instead chose to nitpick, is that every single one of those guys, had they spent the last three years fighting scrubs, would still be considered at or near the pinnacle of their weight class.

You're right- I didn't address your main point. I saw logical flaws in the evidence you were using to back it up, and I attacked them instead of the main point.

So, here goes: what you say is true- if those guys had been fighting nothing but scrubs for the last several years, they might well still be well regarded. But let's flip this boat over for a second. What if Anderson Silva had never signed with the UFC? What if he had been fighting in Dream this whole time? Would he be ranked #1 at 185? Would he be in the #1 P4P discussion? Probably not- but he should be.

This is why the "what have you done for me lately" approach to ranking fighters is a farce- because what it really means is, "how well do you get along with Dana White?"

You could be right- Josh's game may have diminished in the last few years, and we might not know it because of the level of competition he's faced during that time - but we won't know that until we know that. And right now, we have no reason to expect it.

[filmguy1974]

Re: Affliction 3 - Fedor v. Barnett

Which would be an awesome argument had Fedor fought Sylvia and Arlovski 3-4 years ago.

You'd have an interesting time trying to make the case that those two fights would have gone differently 3 years ago, if that's what you're implying here.

Oh, and by the way, you completely ignored my point again. Is Fedor really fighting where his competition is the best when he beat two of his top three contenders there in 4 minutes combined? You're telling me that Mir, Lesnar, or even Big Nog, who has fought Fedor for 40 minutes without being stopped, wouldn't put up a better fight?

I'm already on record saying that Mir's legit- I think that would be a fantastic matchup. Beyond that- Fedor subs Lesnar with little or no trouble, and look- Big Nog is one of my favorite all-time fighters, but you don't get to pull the "a lot can change in 3-4 years" card only when it suits you. If you pull that card out at all, you HAVE to use it on Big Nog first.

So, the short answer to your question would be that outside of Mir- HELL NO- nobody in the UFC would put up much of a better fight.