Machida vs Shogun...UFC 104

[filmguy1974]

Re: Machida vs Shogun...UFC 104

A win is a win is a win.

No, it isn't. All wins are not created equal.

Since he won the title, I would say he was pretty deserving of the shot. He was good enough to beat the champ, right?

No- I can't get on board with that reasoning at all. Griffin shouldn't have gotten his title shot when he got it, either. Neither guy had even one successful title defense- which kinda' bolsters my point. Both guys were carried into title fights prematurely because of their TUF fame.

A win is a win is a win.

No, it isn't. All wins are not created equal.

Who do you think should have fought Griffin?

Rampage should have gotten an immediate rematch. Failing that - both Lyoto and T. Silva were ahead of Rashad in my rankings at that point in time (this would be prior to Lyoto's destruction of Thiago, of course).

[aholbert32]

Re: Machida vs Shogun...UFC 104

Rampage should have gotten an immediate rematch. Failing that - both Lyoto and T. Silva were ahead of Rashad in my rankings at that point in time (this would be prior to Lyoto's destruction of Thiago, of course).

LOL....T. Silva? His biggest wins in the UFC at the time were over Houston Alexander and James Irvin. That gets you a title shot but beating Bisping and Liddell doesnt? I can see how people can argue that Machida deserved one then (I disagree with it but I can see it) but Silva? Wow.

[Rau71]

Re: Machida vs Shogun...UFC 104

I didnt.

I wasn't saying you did. I meant to say he couldn't beat Tito, not he didn't. My bad. After Forrest was handed the belt, I thought Rampage should have gotten a rematch, because Other then the first round Forrest didn't do anything, yet somehow won the fight. It went the distance and won fight of the night, so why not give Rampage a shot, and have all the other contenders sort themselves out. If you don't give it to Rampage, I thought Silva, and Machida were better then Evans.

[Pappy Knuckles]

Re: Machida vs Shogun...UFC 104

You seem like you play straight up, Rau. I accepted your request last night, we'll have to get some games in. I haven't played a ton of people from the site yet, hopefully I can make my rounds this weekend.

[filmguy1974]

Re: Machida vs Shogun...UFC 104

Thats a bit of revisionist history. 1) Now everyone says and realizes that Chuck is shot but nobody was saying that before the Evans loss.

Disagree- I saw plenty of people saying it. Chuck had obviously lost a step and lost a little power. This was easily evidenced even in his victory over Wand, let alone the two terrible performances against Jardine and 'Page.

2) At the time when Evans got the shot, Machida hadnt beaten T. Silva yet. So his only major wins were against Soko (very overrated) and Ortiz (a decision win and a fight Ortiz almost won in round 3 w/ a triangle choke).

You talk about revisionist history in point #1, but want to sum up the Machida/Ortiz bout by only describing it as, "a decision win and a fight Ortiz almost won in round 3 w/ a triangle choke."

Leaving a few details about that fight out, aren't we?

Beyond that- you're falling into the slippery slope of MMAth here in point #2. It's not just a matter of who beats who and when. This is not a video game, these are not robots. Style points always count.

Lyoto had looked unbeatable since he showed up in the UFC, and was only getting more dominant each time we saw him. Rashad was up and down, and had shown a tendency to fight down to the level of his competition.

[aholbert32]

Re: Machida vs Shogun...UFC 104

Disagree- I saw plenty of people saying it. Chuck had obviously lost a step and lost a little power. This was easily evidenced even in his victory over Wand, let alone the two terrible performances against Jardine and 'Page.



You talk about revisionist history in point #1, but want to sum up the Machida/Ortiz bout by only describing it as, "a decision win and a fight Ortiz almost won in round 3 w/ a triangle choke."

Leaving a few details about that fight out, aren't we?

Beyond that- you're falling into the slippery slope of MMAth here in point #2. It's not just a matter of who beats who and when. This is not a video game, these are not robots. Style points always count.

Lyoto had looked unbeatable since he showed up in the UFC, and was only getting more dominant each time we saw him. Rashad was up and down, and had shown a tendency to fight down to the level of his competition.

I have no idea who these "plenty of people" are but I'll let that go. Evans was no where close to being the favorite in that fight.

To your second point, you knocked Evans for having decision wins so I pointed out that Machida has them too. Also thats not revisionist history about Ortiz/Machida. It was a decision win and he almost got finished with a choke. He looked great in that fight but that doesnt change what happened in the fight. Like I said earlier, I can understand the Machida argiument but arguing that T. Silva deserved a shot over Evans is ridiculous.

[filmguy1974]

Re: Machida vs Shogun...UFC 104

LOL....T. Silva? His biggest wins in the UFC at the time were over Houston Alexander and James Irvin. That gets you a title shot but beating Bisping and Liddell doesnt? I can see how people can argue that Machida deserved one then (I disagree with it but I can see it) but Silva? Wow.

Like I keep saying- it's not just about the MMAth.

It's not just about who you beat, but how you look when you beat them.

It's about answering the question, "Who's the better fighter?"

My opinion at the time was that Lyoto, and Thiago were both better than Rashad - and I had both of them ranked ahead of him (and Griffin, for that matter) as a result. Lyoto has obviously proven me very, very right on that count. As for Thiago- time will tell.

[aholbert32]

Re: Machida vs Shogun...UFC 104

I wasn't saying you did. I meant to say he couldn't beat Tito, not he didn't. My bad. After Forrest was handed the belt, I thought Rampage should have gotten a rematch, because Other then the first round Forrest didn't do anything, yet somehow won the fight. It went the distance and won fight of the night, so why not give Rampage a shot, and have all the other contenders sort themselves out. If you don't give it to Rampage, I thought Silva, and Machida were better then Evans.

I agree about Rampage. If he didnt have the personal issues crop up, he may have received an immediate rematch. I thought he deserved it.

The Silva statement puzzles me though. So if you 1st round KO a number of mid-level contenders (Alexander, Irvin, Mendes) that justifies a title shot more than KOing a former champ and beating Bisping?

[LP]

Re: Machida vs Shogun...UFC 104

Rampage should have gotten an immediate rematch. Failing that - both Lyoto and T. Silva were ahead of Rashad in my rankings at that point in time (this would be prior to Lyoto's destruction of Thiago, of course).

Yeah, Rampage should have fought an immediate rematch with a fighter that just beat him. That would be great for PPV. Add in the fact that he had a mental breakdown and got arrested shortly there after. C'mon man, seriously.

[aholbert32]

Re: Machida vs Shogun...UFC 104

Like I keep saying- it's not just about the MMAth.

It's not just about who you beat, but how you look when you beat them.

It's about answering the question, "Who's the better fighter?"

My opinion at the time was that Lyoto, and Thiago were both better than Rashad - and I had both of them ranked ahead of him (and Griffin, for that matter) as a result. Lyoto has obviously proven me very, very right on that count. As for Thiago- time will tell.

It doesnt have to be JUST about who you beat but its should matter more than how. Anyone can KO tomato cans and mid level fighters. Beating a top 10 fighter by KO is way more impressive than KOing mid level fighters.

I like Machida alot but he hasnt proven you right in my eyes. Right now he is at the same spot as Evans and Griffin were....a guy who won the belt but hasnt defended it. If he beats Rua (as I suspect he will) then that will change my mind.

[filmguy1974]

Re: Machida vs Shogun...UFC 104

I have no idea who these "plenty of people" are but I'll let that go. Evans was no where close to being the favorite in that fight.

Well, it's not like I'm going to name names. Just saying that I pretty clearly remember reading through plenty of threads on MMA forums about Chuck's diminishing skills after he was dethroned- especially starting after the Jardine fight.

To your second point, you knocked Evans for having decision wins so I pointed out that Machida has them too.

I'm not knocking Evans for having fights go to decision. I'm knocking him for how he looked in those decisions. Those back-to-back fights against Ortiz and Bisping were hardly tremendous efforts on Rashad's part.

Also thats not revisionist history about Ortiz/Machida. It was a decision win and he almost got finished with a choke.

He also threw Tito around like a rag doll in that fight, nearly KO'ed him with a knee to the midsection, and completely dominated every round. So- it's a bit revisionist to simply call it 'a decision win' and point out Tito's sub attempt without mentioning what happened during the other 14 minutes and 50 seconds of the fight.

[aholbert32]

Re: Machida vs Shogun...UFC 104

LOL...I see you edited the part out where I said Machida looked great in the Ortiz fight but its all good.

[Pappy Knuckles]

Re: Machida vs Shogun...UFC 104

I get the feeling that Rampage truly doesn't give a **** about the belt. I think he'll enjoy it if he wins it again, but he's more concerned with simply fighting and making money. He was screwed out the title when they gave it to Forrest, but it doesn't appear to be eating at him that much. I think that was such a hectic time in his life that he's just taking things as they come.

I feel like Evans deserved the title shot against Forrest more than Thiago or Lyoto did at that time. He won against everyone that was put in front of him and his wins were against bigger names. However, Thiago was undefeated too and he was straight up murdering people. Because of that I can understand how someone could've ranked him higher than Evans. The brutality of his wins left a big impression.

[whoady4shoady]

Re: Machida vs Shogun...UFC 104

I'm curious as to who you think will win this fight - I'm obviously picking Machida - I want to see if any of you are picking Rua?

Im picking shogun as the upset. Mark my words. He will win the decision. I like Machida by the way, but I dont see him being able to keep shogun off of him like he did with Evans.

[Rau71]

Re: Machida vs Shogun...UFC 104

I agree about Rampage. If he didnt have the personal issues crop up, he may have received an immediate rematch. I thought he deserved it.

The Silva statement puzzles me though. So if you 1st round KO a number of mid-level contenders (Alexander, Irvin, Mendes) that justifies a title shot more than KOing a former champ and beating Bisping?

I thought Silva looked better in his matches then Rashad did in his. Evans had a split decison victory over bisping, who's most impressive win was Matt Hamil. Bisping has turned it up a notch since the loss to Evans, but that has been at middleweight. And the way he beat Chuck was pretty much the icing on the "Chuck's over the Hill cake". He was already there, I think most people knew it, but getting one punched sealed the deal.

As for Rampage's legal and personal issues, he those were all said and done with before the Evans-Forrest fight. He was on the same card, UFC 92, and dismantled Wandy.