Ground Grappling Offense and Defense do not apply to human players

[goh]

Re: Ground Grappling Offense and Defense do not apply to human players

What's the point of stats if they don't work? As it seems the sub stats don't matter either,not tested to this extent but there's been enough WTF moments to make it obvious.

[Mossfan8480]

Re: Ground Grappling Offense and Defense do not apply to human players

I think it factors in on transition blocks. If you hold the block down against better offensive grapplers, they overcome you more often and vice versa.

[Gotmadskillzson]

Re: Ground Grappling Offense and Defense do not apply to human players

I think it is pretty obvious some, if not ALL the stats don't mean jack. Because guys with high sub stats don't dominate on the ground like they should. I mean I could submit a person with Tyson Griffin just as fast as if I was using Florian, BJ Penn,, or Maia. Which shouldn't be the case.

And BJJ guys shouldn't be able to throw combos and KO people standing up with ease either like a pure striker would. Same thing goes with wrestlers.

[Jistic]

Re: Ground Grappling Offense and Defense do not apply to human players

I think that STR-SPD-STA matter. But other than that I don't know if anything does. I have seen where if I neglect training and just spar my guy gets his *** beat. If I concentrate only on training, I'm a terror.

[cingular]

Re: Ground Grappling Offense and Defense do not apply to human players

lol have you faced a human player with a world class ground game that has better ground grapple skills???

Play Machida versus Houston Alexander against someone with a a good ground game and tell me that grapple ratings don't matter. The cpu sucks on the ground on expert but you should still notice a difference between the top grapplers (mainly and how their guard is better and they reverse alot more). Yea Machida versus Forest you might not notice much for even human players.
Speed is a factor involved in transitions as well from what I have read and it seems ground grapple d is more important since it helps blocking transition regardless of dominant position. Stamina also figures into the equation as well.

For instance Anderson Silva's got a good grapple d (80 somethings) but not O (66)this will get exposed against someone who is competent with a better ground grappler (leites) with all things being equal.

[allBthere]

Re: Ground Grappling Offense and Defense do not apply to human players

i know for a fact ground grapple offense matters online. I had this created dude plow through my grapple blocks as if I wasn't even holding the right stick (his ggo was very high). I think They also go through the animations faster imo, but i'm not sure....but my first point I'm certain about.

just as an aside...i'm not sure what you're doing is the way to go. You're ruining the game for yourself on purpose. Why not just suspend your disbelief and have fights and leave it at that, instead of number crunching. I'm not trying to be offensive, just pointing somehting out.

[MC Fatigue]

Re: Ground Grappling Offense and Defense do not apply to human players

just as an aside...i'm not sure what you're doing is the way to go. You're ruining the game for yourself on purpose. Why not just suspend your disbelief and have fights and leave it at that, instead of number crunching. I'm not trying to be offensive, just pointing somehting out.

I didn't ruin the game for myself, THQ did. What's the point in fighting on the ground if I know that it doesn't even matter what rating my fighter has? If I can take a complete scrub and dominate the best ground fighters in the UFC?

It takes away 1/2 of the entire game. I'm not trying to play a kick boxing game, I'm trying to play an MMA game; but it feels pointless when the ground game is so screwed up that once it's down there it's an automatic win. All of a sudden I find myself either forcing myself to stand (when the ground game is my favorite aspect of MMA), or just laying on them and not really doing anything because I know I can just get to mount any time I want.

Where is the fun in that?

Basically I'm being forced to play UFC: Kickboxing Edition when I'm playing offline mode. I mean, I am playing on the ground still, just to test it out - I've got my career going in which A fighter with a 1 rating in just about every single skill is 15-2 and having no problems other than 2 flash KO's.

Generally I like to play games offline; as online is filled with cheesers and cheaters (and this game is plagued with them), so AI is generally pretty important to me, and I'd really like to see it worked on, and rating made really matter so that there's a challenge in there.

I guess I could be asking for too much, though, as I've never played a sports game that had tough/good AI that wasn't due to it cheating it's *** off. So maybe I'm just expecting too much.

Maybe I'm just over reacting, who knows. It always ends up like this - love a game, get good at it, realize the AI sucks, get annoyed at the game.

You need to get that CAF league going; I think that'd be a lot of fun.

[Ceothachosen1]

Re: Ground Grappling Offense and Defense do not apply to human players

maybe ur just really good

[goh]

Re: Ground Grappling Offense and Defense do not apply to human players

You were actually onto something here. I did some striking related research and a few giant red flags came up. I know what people are like around here so for the sake of enjoyment of the game I suggest not hitting this spoiler button.

Spoiler

Going into tutorial mode where it shows the damage.

First up we have Cro Cop.
His strike offense at 79 and kick offense 92 with a strength rating of 60.

Training dummy #1 was Mark Coleman with a strike defense of 67 and kick defense of 49.
A right head kick from Cro Cop did 73 and a left did 65.
A righ superman punch did 33 and a left superman punch did 27.

Training dummy #2 was Antoni Hardonk. 81 strike defense,14 points more than Coleman and a kick defense of 85 a whole 36 points more than Coleman.
Right head kick? 70,a mere 3 points less than what it did to Coleman.
Left? 62,3 points less again.
Right superman? 26,only 1 point less
Left superman? 32,1 point less again.

Training dummy #3 was a CAF with 1 strike defense and 1 kick defense.
Right head kick? 75,5 more than Hardonk with 84 less defense rating
Left? 73,3 more with 84 less in the rating
Right superman? 29,3 more again
Left superman? 35,3 more again

Then I took Frank Mir and gave him a try with his 73 in each offense strike stat and a 59 in strength.

vs. Coleman
Right head kick? 67
Left? 61
Right special punch? 22
Left special punch? 28

vs. Hardonk
Right head kick? 66,1 less
Left? 57,4 less
and here comes a MAJOR flag
Right special punch? 22
Left special punch? 28

Frank Mir's special punches did the exact same amount of damage to Hardonk and Coleman despite a 13 point rating difference for standing strikes.

vs. CAF
Right head kick? 70
Left? 67
Right special punch? 31
Left special punch? 24

Hardly a difference in the punches with the CAF as well.

Next up was a CAF with 1 SO,1 KO and 1 strength,abrivating from here.

vs. MC
HL 29
HR 32
SML 12
SMR 15

vs. AH
HL 28
HR 31
SML 12
SMR 15

As you can see the kicks only did 1 less and superman punches did the same.

Then I raised that same CAF's strength to 95.

vs. MC
HL 48
HR 53
SML 21
SMR 26

vs. AH
HL 46
HR 53
SML 21
SMR 25

While it did more damage overall the difference between Coleman and Hardonk is minimal despite their big ratings gap and the left superman punch did the same ammount of damage.

That CAF was then put back to 95 strength and given 100 in both offensive striking abilities.

vs. MC
HL 89
HR 98
SML 38
SMR 46

vs. AH
HL 84
HR 95
SML 37
SMR 45

A difference of only 1 point of damage in superman punches.

When I changed the CAF's strength to 60 he got the camp boosts for his striking ability so now with kicks at 110,striking at 115 and strength at 60...

vs. MC
HL 75
HR 83
SML 32
SMR 39

vs. AH
HL 71
HR 81
SML 32
SMR 39

...the superman punches land the same ammount of damage.

For the final test I put this CAF against a CAF with 1 in each defense.

Once at 60 strength:

HL 84
HR 142
SML 49
SMR 60

and once at 95 strength:

HL 147
HR 166
SML 58
SMR 71

This seems to be the only time there was a significant difference.

So as you can see overall there are some real problems regarding stats with at least the default fighters when Hardonk and Coleman take nearly the same ammount of damage on headkicks and the same on superman punches. It seems you need near absolute extremes in stats to have any real effect. Another note is that the damage is exactly the same on beginner as it is on expert.

[GrayFolded]

Re: Ground Grappling Offense and Defense do not apply to human players

I wonder if this applies to other stats? Make and never spar, see what happens. Maybe just train?

Just started posting on OS after being a long time reader....You folks have a fantastic Sports Gaming Forum and its a treat to be here....

Well Jistic, I might be able to add to that question as I just finished a career with some odd results....

My fighter was an 80 in his 3 attribute stats and had a 50 in Sub Off...KB and Judo are his styles (Brutal Combo)..I had submitted Rashad Evans from my back via Triangle Choke in less than a minute into the 1st round toward the end of my career....I never tried to Sub guys since it was not my style and this was out of self defense from his ground and pound, I was shocked that I taped him so quick..Same thing in the rematch but this time in the 2nd round....The final fight in Year 7 was Tito Ortiz who once again got a choke from my back in the 2nd....

Once again, I'm a 50 in Sub and tailored my guy for striking, throws and ground and pound....Also I use Brute Force Sub/Escape (On 360 that is the X Button) instead of rotating RS.....I play on the 2nd most difficult setting (Expert???)

Does Strength Rating have something to do with offsetting other stats????

This was my first career and I had no idea how to balance out training until halfway through it, so I keep pumping up those 3 attribute categories before I concentrated on skill stats....

Again, does Strength have something to do with this??

[goh]

Re: Ground Grappling Offense and Defense do not apply to human players

Based on my post I would think strength is the only thing that makes most stats work,the ones that do work anyway. It DOES offset the sub defense stat since using brute escape is based on your strength rating and escaping with the stick is based on the sub defense stat. So theoretically you can just take the 29 points off and use them elsewhere with no effect.

Though this reminds me there was something else I wanted to look into here,wich is much less work than that was...

[goh]

Re: Ground Grappling Offense and Defense do not apply to human players

On top of finding out what I had planned to find out (again NOT good) I'm going to have to say that either this game has some very serious rating related problems or there's more to strike defense than the strike defense rating because something happend that ratings and weightclass wise shouldn't have been possible. I am however not going to share either part of this particular data because it would lead to online cheese for those that want actual fights and not super fights with their rediculous created fighters. This one goes in the videogame vault and stays there.

Also based on this the excuse for collision detection being the reason you don't get to do open weight fights is very possibly bullphuey. (As if that shouldn't have already been obvious from career mode and having the exact same training partners in every weight class.)

I'll just give this a and try not to find anymore out.