Ground Grappling Offense and Defense do not apply to human players

[MC Fatigue]

This is a pretty big problem with the game. Ground Grappling Offense and Defense has NO effect on human players. That is - Human vs Human or Human vs CPU.

I'm inclined to believe that maybe it barely even applies to the CPU...

I made a lightweight and tested him out against BJ Penn... I don't recall Penn's stats - but I believe they're both in the 80's.

My offense and defense? 1 for both - and 41 ground striking.

The results? 3 times in a row - full mount within 1 minute, TKO within 4 minutes.

Once in mount, he was hardly able to roll over and give up his back unless I just timed a punch poorly; then I just flipped him right back over.

I don't know why, but it seems like either the game just gives humans 100 in both automatically (as is proof - online it's not about the fighter, but the player's timing with the transitions. I've held people down the entire round just for fun to see if they could do anything).

Either that - or the stat just doesn't matter at all. I don't see how a 1 rated ground grappler can get full mount on one of the best ground fighters, and TKO him 3 times in a row.

This is a major problem. My suggestion is that next time you do a career, don't even waste points on these two stats - they do nothing.

[Tell22]

Re: Ground Grappling Offense and Defense do not apply to human players

I see what you mean Timmay...my CAF in career is easily mounting guys like Forrest Griffin and Machida on Expert...i think its all about timing

[Stumbleweed]

Re: Ground Grappling Offense and Defense do not apply to human players

Are you on Expert? I play my career on expert and the better ground fighters pop right out of many positions even when I'm doing nothing but transition blocking. I fought Noguiera with my 50-something rated ground grapple and he demolished me and choked me out in the first round after reversing me once. I wasn't able to keep him from advancing position at all and wasn't able to transition out once he got me into side control -- he just laid on me and I tired myself out then he kimura'd my ***.

I dunno if I'm convinced of this just based on that BJ Penn experience.

It seems to me to matter because I was having a lot of trouble doing reversals (which I'm very good at) with my recent career fighter. Once I increased his ground grapple stats up to 50+, I was able to reverse people more often, and that continued until it felt like normal in the mid 60's-70's range (which makes sense, since most fighters are somewhere in there) and I could reverse anyone basically at will like I can in Exhibition playing the CPU on Expert.

[MC Fatigue]

Re: Ground Grappling Offense and Defense do not apply to human players

Are you on Expert? I play my career on expert and the better ground fighters pop right out of many positions even when I'm doing nothing but transition blocking. I fought Noguiera with my 50-something rated ground grapple and he demolished me and choked me out in the first round after reversing me once. I wasn't able to keep him from advancing position at all and wasn't able to transition out once he got me into side control -- he just laid on me and I tired myself out then he kimura'd my ***.

I dunno if I'm convinced of this just based on that BJ Penn experience.

Yes - expert. And the Penn thing was just to test it out. I've played on every weight class and been able to do anything I want on the ground with anyone.

[Stumbleweed]

Re: Ground Grappling Offense and Defense do not apply to human players

No idea... that's hasn't been my experience at all. I normally dominate the CPU on the ground still, but it's from playing smart and well-timed reversals more than just being able to transition whenever I want. I'll have fights like that where I absolutely mob some real fighter with my newbie career guy, but others (like that Nog fight, which was in Year 4 or 5 of my career) I am basically screwed if I get taken down or mounted. I think we're basically at the same level on the ground game given what I've read (you're probably better at the game overall judging from your online record), so I don't know why our experiences in career would be so different considering we both play on Expert.

[PrettyT11]

Re: Ground Grappling Offense and Defense do not apply to human players

This sounds weird to me as well. I have been able to tell the difference between the higher rated guys and lower rated guys as well in career mode. In my last career in Heavyweight Mir and Nog gave my guy some trouble on the ground as well. Mir was doing reverses and changing positions as well while guys like Vera I was dominating on the ground. And I'm pretty dominate on the ground and have been able to tell the difference in career.

[Stumbleweed]

Re: Ground Grappling Offense and Defense do not apply to human players

Yeah, I was fine on the ground until I got Nog -- most of the guys before him were primarily strikers for whatever reason. He owned me and I had some problems with Mir too before being able to reverse him and get the mount. Definitely not as easy as someone like Kongo, who I was able to transition on basically at will.

After the Nog fight, I immediately pumped a bunch of points into ground grapple and submissions and that's why I don't think Mir was as much of an issue. I couldn't reverse Nog at all really and once he got dominant position I was screwed... felt like playing a really skilled player online the way he just flipped it on me and that was the end.

[Wet Bandit]

Re: Ground Grappling Offense and Defense do not apply to human players

Yeah, this hasn't been my experience either. I think it's generally too easy to transfer, both offensively and defensively, on the ground, but I've definitely noticed differences in fighters with different skills.

[MC Fatigue]

Re: Ground Grappling Offense and Defense do not apply to human players

All I can say is - go make a fighter with 1 in each stat and try it out.

There's no reason for you to even stand a chance on the ground with a fighter with 1 for those. You should be reversed immediately and destroyed... Or stood up without a problem.

Even if you do notice a difference - it's minimal. There's no reason for a 1 fighter to do anything on the ground.

[Jistic]

Re: Ground Grappling Offense and Defense do not apply to human players

I wonder if this applies to other stats? Make and never spar, see what happens. Maybe just train?

[MC Fatigue]

Re: Ground Grappling Offense and Defense do not apply to human players

I wonder if this applies to other stats? Make and never spar, see what happens. Maybe just train?

I'm actually thinking about maxing out stats (not the big 3, but the other ones) at 30 for my next career just to see how it goes.

[trojan49er]

Re: Ground Grappling Offense and Defense do not apply to human players

I can tell you for a fact that it makes a difference in bjj offense and defense as well as standing kicks off, standing strikes off, takedown off/def, just based on ersonl experience, when I've used fighters with different levels of these, they make a huge difference. I used to use a lot of kicks, so to force myself to become a beter all-around player, I started using guys with horrid kicks and from experince, their terrible kicks are completely ineffective. The same can be said for clinch striking off/def and clinch grappling off/def. With better clinch grappling, I have an easier time keeping guys in the clinch (esp mt clinch) and getting out of and manuvering around in the clinch

[MC Fatigue]

Re: Ground Grappling Offense and Defense do not apply to human players

HW test - Nog vs same CAF (changed his weight class)

Results - KO from full mount with 49 seconds left to go.

He pulls me down (I had 1 takedown defense), and then does a reversal or two and is able to get full mount.

I flip him over so I'm on offense. I get full mount and pound away - he managed to turn over 2-3 times; then reverses an attempt to get full mount back and ends up in guard.

I go rubber guard -> full mount transition for full mount.

then I knock him the F out.

That doesn't look like an appropriate 8x grappler vs a 1 grappler off/def.

I think it shows that ratings do matter for the CPU - since he was able to reverse me 2-3 times. But I still got mount on him twice (once on my back, an once when on offense) and KO'd him.

I'm going to try playing Mir against him and see if he still reverses me like he did the other guy.

I think this for sure shows that at least Ground Grapple Offense does almost nothing for the human player, if I could mount Nog easily with a 1 rated guy.

[MC Fatigue]

Re: Ground Grappling Offense and Defense do not apply to human players

OK - this is ridiculous.

Mir vs Nog - Mir KO from Mount x3
CAF vs Nog - CAF KO from Mount x 3

I tested Mir out since he has top skills. Nog reversed me a few times, but I was able to reverse him, and gain mount pretty easily. KO'd from mount within a few minutes each time.

I go to my CAF. EXACT same thing - he reverses me, I reverse him - I always end up in mount for the KO within a few minutes. In fact, my CAF twice got mount and the KO FASTER than Mir did.

The last fight was this -> Nog take down; I go rubber guard, full mount -> pound away. He finally flips over so I have his back, and then reverses my attempt to go back to guard.

I then push him off of me...

He shoots - I block, then pull guard. Then I reverse his attempt to go to side control, and end up in the sprawl position again -> from there I flip him for North/South, then I transition to full mount and KO in 3 punches.

This is a 1 rated Ground Grappling fight in both Off and Def against a guy rated in the 80's for the both.

You tell me that for human players, those stats matter at all...

[MC Fatigue]

Re: Ground Grappling Offense and Defense do not apply to human players

And as a quick update again - I lowered everything but Sub Defense to 1, and KO'd Mir in the second from mount. He did nothing on the ground to me that he hasn't done when I've used a top rated grappler. However, I was able to control him just as well as when I've played against him using Nog or Werdum. I reversed him around, pulled full mount from several positions (rubber guard, north/south, a reversal, side guard, half guard).

I think I maybe missed 2 mount attempts total - both of which were just blocked, and I was successful the next attempt.

The only reason it wasn't a 1st Round KO is because I had little G'n'P power; so it just took longer.