**7/16/07 Raw Discussion Thread** a.k.a Booker is the greatest ever!

[TimmeH]

Re: **7/16/07 Raw Discussion Thread** a.k.a Booker is the greatest ever!

I never thought of it like this, and I DO enjoy Cena in the ring (although I'm one of his biggest haters, his lame humor and his "never say die" attitude f'in sickens me month after month), but look at the other guys in those matches.

As it was said earlier, one of them is the best big man today. Two are the greatest of all time (HHH, HBK), that ECW match could have been anyone because of the stuff surrounding it but RVD was kickass in it, like you said Edge puts on great matches all the time.

I won't discredit him at all, but I'm just saying he's had alot to work with and his push is simply out of control. It was out of control when he made HHH tap to the lame STFU at WrestleMania.

But think about it. His match against HHH was probably HHH's best match over the last 16 months. Same with HBK. Same with Umaga. Same with Edge. RVD is probably the only guy who you can't say that about. He brings the best out of his opponents. You don't need to pull out WWF No Mercy's entire moveset to be very entertaining in the ring.

The only problems I have with Cena is a.) The stupid overcoming the odds gimmick...he always seems to be the "underdog"...and that's no fault of his own, just bad WWE booking IMO and b.) His lame "wanna-be-Rock" humor. Otherwise I really enjoy his work.

[KowboyKoop]

Re: **7/16/07 Raw Discussion Thread** a.k.a Booker is the greatest ever!

You guys have been brainwashed by all the horrible wrestling out there....Cena doesn't even come close to holding his own in the ring, all he does is come out strong with some clotheslines/shoulderblocks, he'll do his little modified fisherman suplex/slam crap move, he'll do his belly-to-back suplex/slam crap move, then he'll get punched a bunch of times, then he'll magically, amazingly, come back, a never before seen phenomenon where he displays more guts than anyone in the history of time, and then he'll hit put on the STFU and it's over. Simply atrocious...watch his next match, this is the exact format every time...throw in a five knuckle shuffle every now and then....................some random punches here and there....the main event scene has never been more depressing. I don't consider HHH the best wrestler in the biz, but at least he is capable of doing a few different moves sometimes and can actually sell a variety of moves and can actually lose a match. Cena's a joke...he's just Hulk Hogan with a more limited move set.

[Dipstick]

Re: **7/16/07 Raw Discussion Thread** a.k.a Booker is the greatest ever!

So Jeff will get squashed by Umaga for the fourth time since February this Sunday. Awesome


Somebody give Shelton a push. He's uber-athletic and has gotten better with his character. Give him a shot damnit

Shelton must have pissed somebody off. Either that or he's not a kiss ***. Doesn't make any sense not to push this guy. Why don't they move him to ECW. Who wouldn't want to see a Benjamin/CM Punk match?

[TimmeH]

Re: **7/16/07 Raw Discussion Thread** a.k.a Booker is the greatest ever!

You guys have been brainwashed by all the horrible wrestling out there....Cena doesn't even come close to holding his own in the ring, all he does is come out strong with some clotheslines/shoulderblocks, he'll do his little modified fisherman suplex/slam crap move, he'll do his belly-to-back suplex/slam crap move, then he'll get punched a bunch of times, then he'll magically, amazingly, come back, a never before seen phenomenon where he displays more guts than anyone in the history of time, and then he'll hit put on the STFU and it's over. Simply atrocious...watch his next match, this is the exact format every time...throw in a five knuckle shuffle every now and then....................some random punches here and there....the main event scene has never been more depressing. I don't consider HHH the best wrestler in the biz, but at least he is capable of doing a few different moves sometimes and can actually sell a variety of moves and can actually lose a match. Cena's a joke...he's just Hulk Hogan with a more limited move set.

I don't see how we're brainwashed by bad wrestling. Wrestling-wise, the WWE is better now than any other time that I remember. Plus ROH is putting out tons of great wrestling on DVD, and TNA's PPVs normally have alot of good wrestling(before the over-booked finishes at least lol).

Yes, he does have a very limited set of moves. F-U, STFU, Five Knuckle Shuffle, release fisherman, modified blue thunder, flipping neckbreaker, top rope famousser, clotheslines, bulldog, top rope shoulder block, sitout hiptoss, and a bunch of punches...but guess what, for the most part that's what all WWE guys have. It's what Vince wants. Vince wants guys to use a limited amount of moves to the fans recognize them and react to them.

Matt Hardy has been (IMO) the best wrestler in the WWE over the last few months. He doesn't break out a ton of moves though. He has his Twist of Fate, Side Effect, middle rope elbow to the back of the head, clothesline/bulldog combo, and a bunch of punches. Probably less moves than Cena, but on Smackdown he's been putting on entertaining 15+ minute matches for weeks now.

Like I said, it's not about using the entire No Mercy moveset, it's about know how to work a match. Cena can do that. Yes, alot of times he gets his *** kicked and then does the superman comeback, but that's how he's booked. That's what Vince and the writers want. They want him to be the guy who know matter how far he's down he never gives up and never surrenders. Is that lame? Debatable. But that's what they want

Hell, if I remember right, many of the Rock's matches as a face were like that. He never had a huge moveset, and often times he'd get kicked around the ring for 10 minutes before DDT, Clothesline, another Clothesline, Spinebuster, People's Elbow.

[Qb]

Re: **7/16/07 Raw Discussion Thread** a.k.a Booker is the greatest ever!

I don't see how we're brainwashed by bad wrestling. Wrestling-wise, the WWE is better now than any other time that I remember. Plus ROH is putting out tons of great wrestling on DVD, and TNA's PPVs normally have alot of good wrestling(before the over-booked finishes at least lol).

Yes, he does have a very limited set of moves. F-U, STFU, Five Knuckle Shuffle, release fisherman, modified blue thunder, flipping neckbreaker, top rope famousser, clotheslines, bulldog, top rope shoulder block, sitout hiptoss, and a bunch of punches...but guess what, for the most part that's what all WWE guys have. It's what Vince wants. Vince wants guys to use a limited amount of moves to the fans recognize them and react to them.

Matt Hardy has been (IMO) the best wrestler in the WWE over the last few months. He doesn't break out a ton of moves though. He has his Twist of Fate, Side Effect, middle rope elbow to the back of the head, clothesline/bulldog combo, and a bunch of punches. Probably less moves than Cena, but on Smackdown he's been putting on entertaining 15+ minute matches for weeks now.

Like I said, it's not about using the entire No Mercy moveset, it's about know how to work a match. Cena can do that. Yes, alot of times he gets his *** kicked and then does the superman comeback, but that's how he's booked. That's what Vince and the writers want. They want him to be the guy who know matter how far he's down he never gives up and never surrenders. Is that lame? Debatable. But that's what they want

Hell, if I remember right, many of the Rock's matches as a face were like that. He never had a huge moveset, and often times he'd get kicked around the ring for 10 minutes before DDT, Clothesline, another Clothesline, Spinebuster, People's Elbow.

Very good post. Especially the part about the WWE limiting the moves people use so that the fans recognize when to pop. Sure, every once in a while someone will pull out something that makes you say 'wow', but for the most part it's more or less Pavlov and his dogs.

Kowboy, we understand where you're coming from... many people on this board (including myself) and everywhere else are tired of Cena's push/booking/character/etc. But I have to agree that he can 'work' in the ring. Sure he's not the greatest of all-time or the best 'wrestler' today, but he can entertain and Raw is more about entertainment than wrestling.

I know that I'd like to see him go heel, just for a change if not for the fact that I think it could work well. Problem is, they'd have to have a WAY over face to have him work with and I don't think Lashley is there yet. That leaves HHH, but we've yet to see how his return will be handled. So we're probably stuck with the same script as I just can't see them pulling a swerve for SummerSlam, as they've only got a month or so to build storylines.

Which leads me to my next point... It seems to me that all these PPVs makes it very difficult for the E to develop any storylines. It seems like it's the same cycle every month:

Week 1 - Fallout from the PPV
Week 2 - A few matches to set up the next PPV
Week 3 - Build some hype for the newly announced PPV main event
Week 4 - Classic pre-PPV hype show (see last night's Raw Face-Off)

Maybe I'm crazy and it's always been like that, but it sure seems that at times unexpected things actually happened or at least there was the possibility that it might. Don't get me wrong, I still watch every week and have really been enjoying Smackdown of late due to the amount of good matches it features.

I guess a lot of this can be chalked up to the fact that they had to drop their biggest story in years (Vince's death) and are probably scrambling to find a new direction. Oh well, I know I'm rambling but just had to get some frustration off my chest. Thanks for listening...

[TheMatrix31]

Re: **7/16/07 Raw Discussion Thread** a.k.a Booker is the greatest ever!

Just finished watching....here are some thoughts.

When HHH's music hit, I marked out like crazy. Damn Booker. That was done well. HHH v. Booker?

Randy Orton has really improved his promo-cutting ability.

Snitsky v. Val Venis? Wow.

Cody Rhodes needs to hit the weight room.

LMAO @ Regal and Duggan. I wonder how much money Farooq is making for his "Damn"s

All these little interview things going for Cena makes me think that Lashley just might have a shot on Sunday.

I would kill to see a HHH v. Kennedy feud. Imagine the promos.

LMAO @ the Billy Madison reference during the Cena/Lashley thing. Lashley really needs to learn how to cut a promo.

Who did Johnathan Coachman bone to get to where he is on RAW? He is atrocious in every sense of the word and in everything he does.

[KowboyKoop]

Re: **7/16/07 Raw Discussion Thread** a.k.a Booker is the greatest ever!

I don't see how we're brainwashed by bad wrestling. Wrestling-wise, the WWE is better now than any other time that I remember. Plus ROH is putting out tons of great wrestling on DVD, and TNA's PPVs normally have alot of good wrestling(before the over-booked finishes at least lol).

Yes, he does have a very limited set of moves. F-U, STFU, Five Knuckle Shuffle, release fisherman, modified blue thunder, flipping neckbreaker, top rope famousser, clotheslines, bulldog, top rope shoulder block, sitout hiptoss, and a bunch of punches...but guess what, for the most part that's what all WWE guys have. It's what Vince wants. Vince wants guys to use a limited amount of moves to the fans recognize them and react to them.

Matt Hardy has been (IMO) the best wrestler in the WWE over the last few months. He doesn't break out a ton of moves though. He has his Twist of Fate, Side Effect, middle rope elbow to the back of the head, clothesline/bulldog combo, and a bunch of punches. Probably less moves than Cena, but on Smackdown he's been putting on entertaining 15+ minute matches for weeks now.

Like I said, it's not about using the entire No Mercy moveset, it's about know how to work a match. Cena can do that. Yes, alot of times he gets his *** kicked and then does the superman comeback, but that's how he's booked. That's what Vince and the writers want. They want him to be the guy who know matter how far he's down he never gives up and never surrenders. Is that lame? Debatable. But that's what they want

Hell, if I remember right, many of the Rock's matches as a face were like that. He never had a huge moveset, and often times he'd get kicked around the ring for 10 minutes before DDT, Clothesline, another Clothesline, Spinebuster, People's Elbow.

If you think the Rock's matches were in ANY way similar to Cena's matches...you need to go back and do some catching up.....EVERY Cena match follows the exact same format....the Rock's matches had a lot of variety. Of course he had his signature spots, every wrestler does, but EVERY Cena move is either a signature spot or a punch......the Rock did a lot of other moves and actually sold/lost some matches.....he jobbed clean to Goldberg and HHH and SCSA and others......when the Rock wrestled, every fan didn't know exactly what was going to happen...when Cena wrestles, every single fan knows the ending.

[Qb]

Re: **7/16/07 Raw Discussion Thread** a.k.a Booker is the greatest ever!

If you think the Rock's matches were in ANY way similar to Cena's matches...you need to go back and do some catching up.....EVERY Cena match follows the exact same format....the Rock's matches had a lot of variety. Of course he had his signature spots, every wrestler does, but EVERY Cena move is either a signature spot or a punch......the Rock did a lot of other moves and actually sold/lost some matches.....he jobbed clean to Goldberg and HHH and SCSA and others......when the Rock wrestled, every fan didn't know exactly what was going to happen...when Cena wrestles, every single fan knows the ending.

I think the point TimmeH is trying to make is that what angers you so much about Cena may not be Cena's fault. Vince and the rest of the E's management decide who/what/how for the most part, leaving the performers without a lot of 'wiggle room' (best I could think of right now) in the ring. And let's face it, a large number of PAYING customers eat it right up each week and that's the bottom line because that's all Vince cares about...

[ubernoob]

Re: **7/16/07 Raw Discussion Thread** a.k.a Booker is the greatest ever!

I'm just watching RAW now (I finished the June 30th OVW just before... Main Event? CM Punk + Cody Runnels in a tag team match.0

Rhodes had cool trunks in OVW.

Orton and Rhodes was a good match - the crowd was into it too. Just a meh RAW though

Although, I did laugh pretty hard at this week's installment of "DAMN!"

[TimmeH]

Re: **7/16/07 Raw Discussion Thread** a.k.a Booker is the greatest ever!

I think the point TimmeH is trying to make is that what angers you so much about Cena may not be Cena's fault. Vince and the rest of the E's management decide who/what/how for the most part, leaving the performers without a lot of 'wiggle room' (best I could think of right now) in the ring. And let's face it, a large number of PAYING customers eat it right up each week and that's the bottom line because that's all Vince cares about...

Exactly. Thanks for saving me the time of typing it again lol

[Qb]

Re: **7/16/07 Raw Discussion Thread** a.k.a Booker is the greatest ever!

Exactly. Thanks for saving me the time of typing it again lol

No problem... I figured that about summed up what you were saying as we seem to think alike on the subject.

[ILLCHILL]

Re: **7/16/07 Raw Discussion Thread** a.k.a Booker is the greatest ever!

I wish HHH would win the Heavywieght title and they would unify everything in a HHH/Cena match


I guess they plan on building up HHH (as if he needs it) with a couple of short feuds against semi-main eventers until he takes the strap.