WWE Netflix/Peacock/ESPN Discussion Thread
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Re: WWE Network Discussion Thread
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Re: WWE Network Discussion Thread
Wrestlemania X-7 could’ve been a perfect 10 and would’ve been probably the greatest WM ever if it wasn’t for having Austin turn heel and join forces with McMahon.
Out of all the years I’ve been watching WWF(E), that’s still one of the most ridiculous, stupid and pointless things I’ve ever seen.
I loved the whole show and there wasn’t really a bad match on the card but that one moment right there just left a real bad taste in my mouth, lol.
I disagree. I think it's still the best Wrestlemania they've done to this date and I don't think the heel turn was stupid or pointless. I think what ended up hurting Austin's heel run was first Triple H's injury ruining the story they were building to and second turning him more into a comedic character after the injury to Triple H.
The turn definitely wasn't pointless because The Rock had overtaken him in popularity at that point, so it made sense to try to work The Rock/Austin story from the other side since we'd already seen it twice with Rock as the heel and then with them both as face going into that Mania.
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Re: WWE Network Discussion Thread
Nah, it was pointless and dumb and I didn’t like it.
And I didn’t say it wasn’t the best, just said that it would’ve been a 10 from me if that moment didn’t happen and would’ve cemented itself as THE best, whereas now it’s one of the best 1 or 2 others having an argument.
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Re: WWE Network Discussion Thread
There was absolutely no reason to include shenanigans in that match and no ****ing reason ever for SCSA and McMahon to join forces.
Sent from my SM-G950U using TapatalkOriginally posted by MoJust once I'd like to be the one they call a jerk off.Originally posted by MoYou underestimate my lazinessOriginally posted by Mo**** ya
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Re: WWE Network Discussion Thread
Shenanigans are a part of pro wrestling especially during that era. It only made sense for it's biggest match to end like that."Maybe I can't win. But to beat me, he's going to have to kill me. And to kill me, he's gonna have to have the heart to stand in front of me. And to do that, he's got to be willing to die himself. I don't know if he's ready to do that."Comment
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Re: WWE Network Discussion Thread
Nah, it was pointless and dumb and I didn’t like it.
And I didn’t say it wasn’t the best, just said that it would’ve been a 10 from me if that moment didn’t happen and would’ve cemented itself as THE best, whereas now it’s one of the best 1 or 2 others having an argument.
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Yeah I get you were saying to you, just saying I disagree. Also you said it "would have been a perfect 10 and would've probably been the greatest WM ever if it wasn't.." the way that's worded is hardly saying it's the best and would have cemented itself that way. That reads as it's not the best because that happened. But it's all subjective anyway so no big deal.
Nobody is immune from a heel turn in wrestling (except John Cena). If you're turning Austin heel, that's literally the only way to realistically doing it, aligning him with McMahon. What else could you do, have him beat the holy hell out of all the faces on the roster? He already does that every week and gets cheered for it. Hulk Hogan turned heel and it was one of the best moves of his career and made one of the best heel characters in the history of the business. It was the right idea, it just didn't work out in the long run due to circumstances.
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Why did he need to go heel?
Sent from my SM-G950U using TapatalkOriginally posted by MoJust once I'd like to be the one they call a jerk off.Originally posted by MoYou underestimate my lazinessOriginally posted by Mo**** ya
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Re: WWE Network Discussion Thread
Hasn't this been covered already? He felt he needed to do it. Vince likes to do big stuff at Wrestlemania and Austin came to him with a heel turn idea. Rock was the biggest face in the company at that point and I'm sure they had eyes on the following Wrestlemania with Rock and Austin in the main event for the first time with the roles flipped or possibly even for Summerslam knowing Rock would be back for the big revenge against Austin and McMahon angle payoff. Plans clearly changed because Triple H's leg exploded, Chris Benoit broke his neck and Buff Bagwell got turned lose on a live Raw broadcast that ruined the plans for WCW.
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So just because lol
Sent from my SM-G950U using TapatalkOriginally posted by MoJust once I'd like to be the one they call a jerk off.Originally posted by MoYou underestimate my lazinessOriginally posted by Mo**** ya
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Re: WWE Network Discussion Thread
Okay let's go with that then. Why didn't he need to turn heel?
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Re: WWE Network Discussion Thread
Sent from my SM-G950U using TapatalkOriginally posted by MoJust once I'd like to be the one they call a jerk off.Originally posted by MoYou underestimate my lazinessOriginally posted by Mo**** ya
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Re: WWE Network Discussion Thread
Hasn't this been covered already? He felt he needed to do it. Vince likes to do big stuff at Wrestlemania and Austin came to him with a heel turn idea. Rock was the biggest face in the company at that point and I'm sure they had eyes on the following Wrestlemania with Rock and Austin in the main event for the first time with the roles flipped or possibly even for Summerslam knowing Rock would be back for the big revenge against Austin and McMahon angle payoff. Plans clearly changed because Triple H's leg exploded, Chris Benoit broke his neck and Buff Bagwell got turned lose on a live Raw broadcast that ruined the plans for WCW.
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So, Austin turning essentially took away WWE's two-biggest babyfaces in one night. That doesn't make a whole lotta sense.Currently Playing:
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WWE Network Discussion Thread
Rock wasn't the biggest face in the company, though. Sure, he was when Austin was gone but once Austin returned in late 2000, Austin was the top babyface. Plus, WWE knew Rock was leaving to go film a movie right after WM, so the timing of the turn didn't really make sense because Rock wasn't going to be set up to try and get revenge for Austin and McMahon's actions.
So, Austin turning essentially took away WWE's two-biggest babyfaces in one night. That doesn't make a whole lotta sense.
The Rock was definitely the biggest face of the company in 2001. I remember during the time and I just finished watching all of 2001. He was consistently out popping Austin. Now don't get me wrong I'm not saying Austin wasn't still over because he was. He was clearly the second biggest guy out there. It's just that time he missed allowed Rock to overtake him.
As for the timing of the turn of course it makes sense. They knew when Rock was coming back, he left after Mania, the *** whooping he took and the way he was written out allowed there to be heat built for his return to television to get revenge. In the meantime Austin would keep building his heel profile against the Undertakers, Kane's, Jericho and Benoits and it was clear they were building a split between he and Triple H to establish Austin as a sneaky backstabber but all that went out the window because of the injuries to H and Benoit and WCW bombing.
Edit: I also believe there's an interview with Austin where he talks about the heel turn and I think he mentions how big Rock had gotten as one of the reasons he wanted to go heel. I could be remembering that wrong, I'll try to find it when I get home later.
Nah, not playing that game lol. Y'all couldn't give a viable answer outside of it be wrestling and/or **** happens. Your example of Hulk doesn't work because his act was beyond stale at the time. People calling for Cena to be heel because his act was stale. SCSA was still getting some of the biggest pops consistently at the time. It really wasn't necessary. Especially to align him with McMahon.
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Just because you don't agree with the answer doesn't make it not "viable." I just laid out the circumstances for you.
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Re: WWE Network Discussion Thread
I mean I guess it did in the sense that once Austin won the RR that year and Rock won the WWF Title back from Angle, that one of them "had" to turn, but my thing is why they chose that path in the first place? What would've happened if they both remained face afterwards is the appropriate question to ask here.
What was the benefit, not just for him, but for the rest of the company? I ask that because your if going to turn your top draw heel, then the reward has to be worth the risk, otherwise why sacrifice that just for shock value? I get that Austin himself wanted to do it, but this still should've been something they thought thru before executing it, especially if they knew that The Rock was going to be leaving for Hollywood for a few months, which I assumed they knew. And if they(WWF) did know at the time, then turning him makes even less sense, even if he wanted to do it.
The wild part is that the crowd still CHEERED him after he turned that night(I'm guessing with WM being in Texas, that probably didn't help).
Let's say Austin remains face after WM17, at that point, couldn't you easily restart that Austin/HHH feud again and pick up where they left off after No Way Out, where they're not only fighting for the belt but Austin is also getting his revenge for Triple H playing a role in taking him out(He already beat Rikishi, so it only made sense to go after the other accomplice)? You have that be you're top feud into the summer and then you also don't have to rush that WCW/ECW Invasion angle and basically just let that build up over time instead of it being rushed out and not living up to it's full potential(That's the one thing we can all agree on about that angle)
This pretty much sums up my thoughts on it:
Spoiler
Now one of the big arguments that can be made about this whole situation is that the setting was all wrong. In reality, if Stone Cold and Vince McMahon became best buddies in any other state than Texas they would have likely been booed out of the building in a similar fashion to Hogan back in WCW.
But that wasn't the only issue here. Sure, it would've been great if Austin had garnered some great heel heat straight off the bat, but the art of cheering the villain had already slowly begun to worm it's way into WWE. In order to really figure this out, you need to look into what transpired throughout the entire process.
However first, we'll take a quick at the character himself. The beauty of Stone Cold Steve Austin as a whole was that for much of his run he was a tweener, not giving into the establishment but also not giving a damn about whether a superstar was heel or face. If you were in his way, you were on your way to receiving a Stunner.
So turning him heel automatically gives you two options. One, have him only attack babyfaces and maintain the same character, or two, change up his persona in a way that separates him from the man he'd been portraying for the last few years of his career.
They ended up going for option number two, but the new Austin they created just didn't make any sense. The toughest SOB in WWE history turned into a whiny primadonna that also seemed to be a little bit crazy, and the crowd didn't really know how to react. The way the crowd were starting to receive him was with a sense of "what is happening here?" as opposed to enjoying Austin's work in the ring.
It just wasn't believable. However, after WWE realised it probably wasn't working all too well they set up The Two-Man Power Trip with Austin and Triple H, with the two going on to become the biggest heels in the company purely down to their name alone. But the issue was that Austin himself shouldn't have required another man to help him get over because, at the end of the day, he's Stone Cold Steve Austin.
So now we come on to the main portion of what crippled this run - injuries. After a sustained period of success during which Austin was slowly fading as a character, Triple H's injury left the partnership in tatters before Stone Cold himself picked up a pretty severe back injury that saw his capabilities in the ring take a serious hit.
Then, the cherry on top came with Chris Benoit going down with a neck injury during a time when a feud with Austin appeared to be a red-hot prospect. So with the Invasion angle just around the corner, WWE were left with a choice - turn Austin babyface once again or stick it out with him continuing on as a heel.
They ended up panicking and turning the Rattlesnake twice, leaving fans about as confused as they had been throughout the entire run. By this point, all form of steam had gone out of the persona for Stone Cold, and it was clear that this was a grand old failure.
In terms of pinpointing the exact moment where things started to unravel, it was when Austin got such a loud reaction at WrestleMania 17. From that second onwards they had to be perfect with their booking or else it would never have had the intended effect on the audience, and in the Attitude Era that's a tough ask given how frantic everything was.
Austin was different to every other superstar on the roster. You couldn't just slap a tag on him and claim that's what he is, and Vince McMahon should've known that. You can't re-invent something that has such a proven formula and if you decide to do it, you can't continue to be outlandish in your decision making. When there's a money machine as big as SCSA at stake, risks are not worth the reward.
If it isn't broke, don't fix it.
I agree with DJ in that WWF(E)hasn't been the same since then. Obviously, there were other factors that played a role in it's decline, but that pretty much started the downward trend it went on for the next 5-6 years.#RespectTheCultureComment
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