NCAA Football 10 Blog: Player Pursuit Angles

[deadlyCane]

Re: NCAA Football 10: Player pursuit angles

Here's my problem with that video... the defender appears to be playing a zone. He's playing part of the field, not the ball carrier. The guy controlling the running back is intentionally not getting close enough for the defender to engage him.

What should we spend our time on tuning defensively? How defenders react to real football plays, or how they react to someone running around in circles in the backfield?

This kind of mentality makes me no less skeptical of EA in general and specifically NCAA 2010.

[TrevJo]

Re: NCAA Football 10: Player pursuit angles

Here's my problem with that video... the defender appears to be playing a zone. He's playing part of the field, not the ball carrier. The guy controlling the running back is intentionally not getting close enough for the defender to engage him.

What should we spend our time on tuning defensively? How defenders react to real football plays, or how they react to someone running around in circles in the backfield?

I appreciate the response.

I'll buy that defenders in zone responsibility have to respect the HB pass so long as the HB has not crossed the line of scrimmage.

Two things:

1. The defensive linemen do not have zone coverage. Look at the three defenders being blocked that are on the 50 yard line on the far side from the camera 2-3 seconds into the play, and watch what they do. Those guys need to try to close in by coming laterally across the field. Instead they try to take these huge pursuit angles back toward the pylon on the near side of the camera. That's really the biggest problem here, it's what allows the RB to cut back and still have plenty of space. There need to be different rules for backside pursuit, rather than every defender trying to cut off the same expected runner path.

2. 28 seconds into the video, the RB (finally) crosses the line of scrimmage. (He probably crosses the line 20 seconds in actually, but he definitely crosses it 28 seconds in.) At that point, no one should be playing zone. Pause the replay when the RB crosses the Georgia 45 yard line. Look at the Georgia defenders that are near the hash mark. They are running backwards toward the sideline because of the RB's speed. The problem is, there are other defenders that are closer to the sideline that already have that angle cut off. These guys near the hash mark need to come UPfield to take away the cutback angle. Instead they get drawn back toward the sideline, and the RB then cuts back for a wide-open jaunt to the other sideline. So really this is the same problem as #1, but with the runner beyond the line of scrimmage.

(3) Total side note here, but it looks like the RB is running just as fast 40 seconds into the play as he is at the start. There is no way that should happen. Maybe he gets slowed down a bit but obviously it's not nearly enough. Sprinting and making hard cuts for more than a few seconds is incredibly exhausting.

In "real football plays", people don't run around in circles because it doesn't work. In the game, you've got to make things like running in circles not work, otherwise many competitive gamers will not treat it like real football!

[TrevJo]

Re: NCAA Football 10: Player pursuit angles

The problem that you're not mentioning is that defenders operate as a unit and have assignments
...
The defenders have no concept of weak side protection, no concept of filtering the ball carrier towards other defenders
...

Correct.

[lesco543]

looks really good. a lot more realistic. I hope it is still possible to fake a defensive player through change of direction by a skilled HB though. but that'll be a lot more realistic. CAN YOU GUYS make HALF SOCKS MORE PREVALENT PLEASE?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? like in real NCAA, most all guys have half high socks or ankles braces

[J.R. Locke]

Re: NCAA Football 10: Player pursuit angles

Still doesn't explain why the defense runs away from the ball carrier near the goal line Hopefully, this pursuit angle fixes that and gets rid of the school fish defense

Yes the school of fish is terrible. I don't understand how since what Madden 93 we have had the same basic pursuit (school of fish!)

[mjussawalla]

Re: NCAA Football 10: Player pursuit angles

I appreciate the response.

I'll buy that defenders in zone responsibility have to respect the HB pass so long as the HB has not crossed the line of scrimmage.

Two things:

1. The defensive linemen do not have zone coverage. Look at the three defenders being blocked that are on the 50 yard line on the far side from the camera 2-3 seconds into the play, and watch what they do. Those guys need to try to close in by coming laterally across the field. Instead they try to take these huge pursuit angles back toward the pylon on the near side of the camera. That's really the biggest problem here, it's what allows the RB to cut back and still have plenty of space. There need to be different rules for backside pursuit, rather than every defender trying to cut off the same expected runner path.

2. 28 seconds into the video, the RB (finally) crosses the line of scrimmage. (He probably crosses the line 20 seconds in actually, but he definitely crosses it 28 seconds in.) At that point, no one should be playing zone. Pause the replay when the RB crosses the Georgia 45 yard line. Look at the Georgia defenders that are near the hash mark. They are running backwards toward the sideline because of the RB's speed. The problem is, there are other defenders that are closer to the sideline that already have that angle cut off. These guys near the hash mark need to come UPfield to take away the cutback angle. Instead they get drawn back toward the sideline, and the RB then cuts back for a wide-open jaunt to the other sideline. So really this is the same problem as #1, but with the runner beyond the line of scrimmage.

(3) Total side note here, but it looks like the RB is running just as fast 40 seconds into the play as he is at the start. There is no way that should happen. Maybe he gets slowed down a bit but obviously it's not nearly enough. Sprinting and making hard cuts for more than a few seconds is incredibly exhausting.

In "real football plays", people don't run around in circles because it doesn't work. In the game, you've got to make things like running in circles not work, otherwise many competitive gamers will not treat it like real football!

Good post.

The D needs to work in mini-teams of 3 or so once the HB or WR passes the LOS.

One to block the runner from going up the sidelines, one to prevent the cutback and the other to zero down on him.

This can only happen if the defenders can move their bodies parallel to the LOS and strafe and have the AI to know where their teammates are.

[MrDhWhat]

getting ready for this game to hit the shelf's

[bamaCT12]

the defense needs to keep their eyes on the ball carrier, and i'm still yet to see a big block while i was running the ball

[rudyjuly2]

Re: NCAA Football 10: Player pursuit angles

Yes the school of fish is terrible.

Bite your tongue! Three Strange Days was a great song.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2rw_XDVfsg

[FlyingFinn]

Re: NCAA Football 10: Player pursuit angles

Bite your tongue! Three Strange Days was a great song.





http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2rw_XDVfsg

Thanks... now I will be singing that song in my head all day.

[Benicio10]

Re: NCAA Football 10: Player pursuit angles

very upsetting response by OMT ... this pretty much seals the deal for me. i had an ounce of enthusiasm for this game, but i'm set on passing on it and just waiting for Madden instead.

Ian would never talk that way. it's a broken part of the game. Admit it and ask us how to fix it instead of try to justify it!

[TrevJo]

Re: NCAA Football 10 Blog: Player Pursuit Angles

Would be nice to hear Russell comment on the lack of defenders working as a team in pursuit, since he's the gameplay guy. Specifically a response to these posts from pages 15 and 16 after OMT's post:

The problem that you're not mentioning is that defenders operate as a unit and have assignments. These assignments are not programmed into the game and thus the defense can be easily exploited by taking advantage of individual player strengths/weaknesses and defensive play type. This is part of the reason why speed becomes so important and why the only true read we need against the CPU is whether they are in Man or Zone.

The defenders have no concept of weak side protection, no concept of filtering the ball carrier towards other defenders, and seemingly only react AFTER an event has occurred instead of pro-actively making decisions as a defensive unit. In that video, there is obviously no recognition by the defense that the play has "broken down" in the backfield and they are still playing zone 30 seconds after the snap. That's horrendous AI design, not a justifiable reason for poor defense. Why are DT's still hand fighting with linemen in the fake pocket? Why is there a 10 second pattern of one-on-one circle running near a sideline with nobody coming to stop the cutback lane to the opposite side of the field?

I'll give you an example that I see in every game of NCAA 09:

User comes out in a Twin WR set with both WR lined up on the left. CPU comes out in Man defense and immediately the User sees that they can bring any fast WR across the field to the open side where they will be open 99 out of 100 times if they are faster than the DB. They can also run a toss or option play to the weak side for a nearly automatic big gain.

Why is the SS playing a deep zone on an unmanned portion of the field on these plays? Why is the OLB on the weak side not playing outside contain? Why is the DE on the weak side not containing the QB/HB and forcing them back inside?

There is nothing absurd about the offensive execution of these plays, yet we see the same exact poor team AI that leads to easy exploitation of the CPU.

I appreciate the response.

I'll buy that defenders in zone responsibility have to respect the HB pass so long as the HB has not crossed the line of scrimmage.

Two things:

1. The defensive linemen do not have zone coverage. Look at the three defenders being blocked that are on the 50 yard line on the far side from the camera 2-3 seconds into the play, and watch what they do. Those guys need to try to close in by coming laterally across the field. Instead they try to take these huge pursuit angles back toward the pylon on the near side of the camera. That's really the biggest problem here, it's what allows the RB to cut back and still have plenty of space. There need to be different rules for backside pursuit, rather than every defender trying to cut off the same expected runner path.

2. 28 seconds into the video, the RB (finally) crosses the line of scrimmage. (He probably crosses the line 20 seconds in actually, but he definitely crosses it 28 seconds in.) At that point, no one should be playing zone. Pause the replay when the RB crosses the Georgia 45 yard line. Look at the Georgia defenders that are near the hash mark. They are running backwards toward the sideline because of the RB's speed. The problem is, there are other defenders that are closer to the sideline that already have that angle cut off. These guys near the hash mark need to come UPfield to take away the cutback angle. Instead they get drawn back toward the sideline, and the RB then cuts back for a wide-open jaunt to the other sideline. So really this is the same problem as #1, but with the runner beyond the line of scrimmage.

(3) Total side note here, but it looks like the RB is running just as fast 40 seconds into the play as he is at the start. There is no way that should happen. Maybe he gets slowed down a bit but obviously it's not nearly enough. Sprinting and making hard cuts for more than a few seconds is incredibly exhausting.

In "real football plays", people don't run around in circles because it doesn't work. In the game, you've got to make things like running in circles not work, otherwise many competitive gamers will not treat it like real football!

[19]

Awesome to hear. The angles last year borderlined on the absurd at times.

[DJ]

Re: NCAA Football 10: Player pursuit angles

very upsetting response by OMT ... this pretty much seals the deal for me. i had an ounce of enthusiasm for this game, but i'm set on passing on it and just waiting for Madden instead.

Ian would never talk that way. it's a broken part of the game. Admit it and ask us how to fix it instead of try to justify it!

Yeah, that response was upsetting to me as a consumer and really doesn't give me faith that 10 will be a big improvement over 09. Looks like I'll stick with the PS2 version of 09 and run with Madden 10 and maybe pick up NCAA 10 once it hits the bargain bins.

[Russell_Kiniry_EA]

Re: NCAA Football 10 Blog: Player Pursuit Angles

I did reply in the other thread. I thought I copied it here as well, which after reading I did not... my fault.

They were instant replays... and were set up specifically to show the long pursuit angles. I moved the defense way over to the side I needed them on to create the situations. Basically the defense had to take those long angles due to me.

It wouldn't do me much good to show two normal plays when I specifically talking about two pretty bad example from 09

My point is simply those videos were not a true representation of how the defense plays, they are situations I created to produce the results.

The players Play Recognition is what will decide how fast the "see" the run, not the assignment.

Again sorry it took me so long to respond (I thought I did already).

-Russ