Madden + Ncaa Issue IMO

[Zgamer34]

First let me say I'm new here so please go easy on me and if this thread was already posted before I am sorry, I have not seen it.

Now, the big issue I find in both games is what I like to call "assignment blocking". A component of a Offense thats almost obvious but not in the game? This is most prevelent during a run play rather than a pass. Let me give a example here to give you a better understanding.

"Real life," Play,24 Iso (out of I formation)-

During this play the HB would get the ball and run threw the 4 hole (between the RG and RT). Therfore the lineman will down block. RG would get the nose tackle (or double team a DT depending on defensive formation) and the RT would hit the End or LOLB, agian, depending on formation. The full back would hit the MLB and ISOlate him, hence 24 ISO. If everyone does there assignment, the HB is guarenteed atleast 6-7 yards without having to make a move unless someone misses there block or gets beat.

Ncaa/Madden, play, 24 Iso (out of I formation)-

Agian half back gets the ball, but, RG goes for MLB, RT goes for DT (closing the hole for the RB to run threw), and the FB runs and hits a LB who is way out of the play anyway. HB gains x amount a yards (all based on chance or luck, maybe skill?)

I have a problem with this because why have offensive plays if noone actually has a assignment? You could argue and say pulling guards pull so therefore they are blocking correctly, but I believe that blockers are programed to run a certrain direction and to block whoever seems like a threat, or maybe not even a threat. It kills the running game! Also on a defensive perspective: a LB is suppose to read a guards first step. So if I took user control of a LB and tryed to read a guard I would be screwed. That takes a lot of realism away from the game. If I bored you im sorry, this is all IMO and will like to hear others thoughts. Thank you =)

[Hova57]

Re: Madden + Ncaa Issue IMO

it wasn't done in ncaa thread, but in madden thread by adem and sven drack. good start though it will be interesting to see if ncaa guys get deep into as madden guys did.

[Hova57]

Re: Madden + Ncaa Issue IMO

yea the fundamentals are messed up in these games for the run. protack helps some with pass protection, but needs an ai tweek .

even in the playbook what you see is what the cpu does to an extent. its not programmed in what if's so playing different defense really jacks it up.

[prowler]

Re: Madden + Ncaa Issue IMO

First off welcome to the board.

Secondly you're assessment is pretty spot on, it's just as bad on sweep plays. The pulling guards will be out in front of the ballcarrier and instead of blocking the defenders in front they'll run back toward the original ball spot to try and block the backside pursuit. The blocking on option plays is just as bad for different reasons, there's several threads about it.

[Coach Bindel]

Re: Madden + Ncaa Issue IMO

\If everyone does there assignment, the HB is guarenteed atleast 6-7 yards without having to make a move unless someone misses there block or gets beat.

This is false. Guard and Center double the 1 tech to the backside LB, Tackle blocks out on the end, fullback leads up on the Mike. Who is blocking the outside LB?

Answer: No one.

6-7 yards, my ***.

[JerseySuave4]

Re: Madden + Ncaa Issue IMO

First off welcome to the board.

Secondly you're assessment is pretty spot on, it's just as bad on sweep plays. The pulling guards will be out in front of the ballcarrier and instead of blocking the defenders in front they'll run back toward the original ball spot to try and block the backside pursuit. The blocking on option plays is just as bad for different reasons, there's several threads about it.

yea sweeps are annoying when you have a CB out there in the flats and a lineman lead blocking out ahead of you yet the lineman turns back inside and looks for backside pursuit instead of going after the CB.

[Zgamer34]

Re: Madden + Ncaa Issue IMO

This is false. Guard and Center double the 1 tech to the backside LB, Tackle blocks out on the end, fullback leads up on the Mike. Who is blocking the outside LB?

Answer: No one.

6-7 yards, my ***.

1 tech, Mike LB, etc. Same blocks dif names. Plus the way you may have learned the play could be diffrent to me. 6-7 yards should be "guarnteed" because if everyone does there correct blocking assignment the HB should not be touched untill 6-7 yards. Its the way plays are designed. Plays get blowen up before that due to miss blocked, wrong assignment, miss match (or superior playera), and sometimes luck

Also, this is way besides my point. I'm trying to say there is no assignment blocking. Regardless if what you say is right or if what I say is right the game does not play out either way. Thank you for the correction though =)

[Coach Bindel]

Re: ****** + Ncaa Issue IMO

But that is my point. What if the Defensive tackle is in a 3 technique instead of a 1? What if there are two inside LBers? What if the 1 tech stunts into the B Gap? These are real life scenarios that play out when teams run Iso, Lead, Blast, whatever you want to call it. Every defensive front changes the blocking scheme. Stunts and blitzes do the same.

The reality is Assignment blocking for a video game is not realistic. And never will be. There are too many variables for some nerd writing code to be able to type up, much less understand the blocking assignments.

[Zgamer34]

Re: ****** + **** Issue IMO

But that is my point. What if the Defensive tackle is in a 3 technique instead of a 1? What if there are two inside LBers? What if the 1 tech stunts into the B Gap? These are real life scenarios that play out when teams run Iso, Lead, Blast, whatever you want to call it. Every defensive front changes the blocking scheme. Stunts and blitzes do the same.

The reality is Assignment blocking for a video game is not realistic. And never will be. There are too many variables for some nerd writing code to be able to type up, much less understand the blocking assignments.

Your point is still mute. When a Defense is in a diffrent formation the O-line adjust as well as every blocker. When a offense runs a play they are not like, "S**t I hope they run a 3-4 D cause if not I dont know who to block." No It is all planned and adjusted. Ever watch a center during a NFL game? He is making adjustments to the play so it's blocked correctly, but its still there "assignment". You would never see a random player block another random player. For example, a FB would never block a guard, but in some cases during both games you will see this happen.

You saying that some "nerd" can not program this feature, is very ignorant. We have cell phones with motion senseing, touch screen features; we have a 3g network that can pretty much stream anything in matters of seconds; Programmers can make player animations run like tiki barber, Pro-tak, the new "catch debug tool", but your telling me they cant program a lineman to down block a nose tackle or a LB (or w.e else) because there are just to many variables?? Im not trying to say its easy but impossible? No.

I am blowen away of how much you used none of your knowledge towards your statment. ***, Im really not trying to be a a** but, come on dude.

[Wet Bandit]

Re: Madden + Ncaa Issue IMO

I wouldn't hope for 100% accuracy with this stuff in Madden of NCAA, but there's still obviously a lot of room for improvement.

[Coach Bindel]

Re: ****** + **** Issue IMO

I am blowen away of how much you used none of your knowledge towards your statment. ***, Im really not trying to be a a** but, come on dude.

Yeah, I've probably crapped and forgotten more football than you'll ever know, boy.

You said: "they should make the blocking assignments realistic" and the proceeded to explain incorrect blocking assignments when you talked about the ISO.

THIS IS THE TRUTH OF THE MATTER:

Most basic "gamers" are not up-to-speed on the X's and O's of football. They THINK they are, but I am here to tell you that they don't ****.

You claim you want a game with "realistic blocking", but you don't even know what "realistic blocking" is.

In fact, what you want is for your offensive lineman to get in the way and control the nearest defensive lineman. If there are any open linemen or blocking backs, then they go to the next level and block a linebacker. - IT DOESN'T WORK LIKE THAT MAN.

It's a video game. True life X's and O's will be EXTREMELY tough to be simulated. Not going to happen. It's too hard. And even if a developer could "code" it, the user - you - wouldn't understand it enough to run it correctly, and thus, would claim it's "broken and not realistic".

It's video game football. What you see is what you get.

[Zgamer34]

Re: ****** + **** Issue IMO

Yeah, I've probably crapped and forgotten more football than you'll ever know, boy.

You said: "they should make the blocking assignments realistic" and the proceeded to explain incorrect blocking assignments when you talked about the ISO.

THIS IS THE TRUTH OF THE MATTER:

Most basic "gamers" are not up-to-speed on the X's and O's of football. They THINK they are, but I am here to tell you that they don't ****.

You claim you want a game with "realistic blocking", but you don't even know what "realistic blocking" is.

In fact, what you want is for your offensive lineman to get in the way and control the nearest defensive lineman. If there are any open linemen or blocking backs, then they go to the next level and block a linebacker. - IT DOESN'T WORK LIKE THAT MAN.

It's a video game. True life X's and O's will be EXTREMELY tough to be simulated. Not going to happen. It's too hard. And even if a developer could "code" it, the user - you - wouldn't understand it enough to run it correctly, and thus, would claim it's "broken and not realistic".

It's video game football. What you see is what you get.

Your statment, agian, is incorrect, "boy." Maybe your reading comprehenison is problem because you state, ".... what you want is for your offensive lineman to get in the way and control the nearest defensive lineman. If there are any open linemen or blocking backs, then they go to the next level and block a linebacker."

1. Don't tell me what I am trying to say

2. Your wrong that is not what im saying

3. When I wrote my first post I was giving a scenerio. I never put any D-formation just stated that there is no actual blocking assignment going on just chaos. I hope you could agree with me on that? I gave how a real play was run and how the video game was run. Now, you claim my blocks were off but the only LB left unblocked was backside and would'nt make a play until 6-7 yards (unless your RB is slow as hell).

So if you can look past your ignorance (You think everyone here does not understand basic football), your cocky attitude (saying you no more about everything,"boy"), and Your stupidity (saying that a program would be that hard to write and its unrealistic to put in football game). Get of your high horse and relize its a sim football game and it should feel like one, without features like I stated it will never become what it should be.

[Coach Bindel]

Re: ****** + **** Issue IMO

I never put any D-formation just stated that there is no actual blocking assignment going on just chaos. I hope you could agree with me on that?

Of course.

I gave how a real play was run and how the video game was run.

That's my point. You didn't run the real play correctly.

So if you can look past your ignorance (You think everyone here does not understand basic football), your cocky attitude (saying you no more about everything,"boy"),

That's incorrect. Most people have an understanding for basic football - they've watched it or played it enough. However, most people don't understand the DETAILS OF BLOCKING SCHEMES - which is the most complicated aspect of football. Even I don't understand them all.

Your stupidity (saying that a program would be that hard to write and its unrealistic to put in football game).

Well, it's been about 25 years overall (I remember a video football game in 1985) and 18 years for Madden/NCAA (I remember Madden in 1992) since football video games came out, and it still hasn't happened yet. Must be a little harder than you think.


Do me a favor. Go in to MS Paint. Draw up the X's and O's to that ISO play we're talking about. And post it on here. This can be the basis of our discussion. Maybe I am not hearing you correctly.

[Amoo316]

Re: ****** + **** Issue IMO

I'm going to ignore most of what has been said because it's been a lot of insulting. Not a great way to have an intelligent discussion. Chill we're all adults here.

It's a video game. True life X's and O's will be EXTREMELY tough to be simulated. Not going to happen. It's too hard.

A lot of people would have said the same thing about adaptive AI in a baseball game, but I can think of a certain game that seems to have figured that out.

What would basically have to happen would mean somebody would have to sit down and program the blocking assignment of each offensive play, vs each defensive play. It's not that it would be entirely complicated as it would take bringing in one player with offensive line experience. What it would take is an enormous amount of time.

It's safe to say we can all admit that the blocking in this game is suspect at times. Sitting here saying making it realistic would not work because people don't know realistic is making a blind statement. If everybody can agree that the blocking is suspect and not realistic, we should be working together to come up with solutions on trying to make it realistic.

We know the game currently uses suction blocking. Who's to say we can't maintain suction blocking, but not have it activate until an offensive lineman fulfills the requirement of his assignment. Just because we haven't seen something before doesn't make it impossible. If it was, what would be the purpose of doing anything other then getting roster updates every year.

[Zgamer34]

Re: ****** + **** Issue IMO

@Milbut- Your right were all adults and that was all uncalled for. Yes, I agree that the game uses suction blocking and that a programmer has the tools and the intelgeince to find and use a better, more realistic way of blocking. Time consumeing, but I think it would be a good step for them to take other than refs, or a chain-gang.

@Coach Bindel- I'm just going to say sorry. You obviously have some experience with football and know your stuff and we both got a bit upset when we challanged eachother on the knowledge of the game. Maybe I am wrong with my ISO blocks, I just want a more realistic blocking system. I, myself have played FB and when I play the game and run a ISO and he runs and hits a corner or somthing it gets me frusterated. Agian sorry, best of luck to ya! =)