canes21 CFB26 Sliders

[TON1C]

Very well said on the penalty stuff. I haven’t started my dynasty yet for a variety of reasons but like I mentioned before I’ve just been lurking around trying to keep up with everything, especially the “penalties matter” debate. I was trying to keep an open mind but when all is said and done, I totally agree with you. Especially considering that we’ve seen how gameplay elements work in Frosty and even Sabo himself said penalties don’t effecting gameplay. He’s probably quite literally the subject matter expert on the underworking of the gameplay other than the actual devs. Plus like you also said, you’ve done a lot of work on this in the past. Not going to keep beating a dead horse by any means as I’m sure you’re a bit sick of it too but just wanted to say that I appreciate the well worded and thought out post.

Anyways onto the sliders themselves - have you noticed a pretty high amount of pancake blocks by the CPU? I assume this is due to the RBK needing to be so high. And I know it affects everything but have you toyed with the speed threshold at all to see how it can help the CPU running game to allow for a lower PBK slider? I feel like arguments could be make for both sides, higher would allow combo blocks and pulling lineman to get to the second level or the point of attack, and lower would just let the RB himself be able to do a bit more.

Have been watching your two latest games just to check everything out and start getting in the flow a bit. Keeping my fingers crossed for a patch next week as I’d really like to see a few dynasty specific things cleaned up before I dive in.

[canes21]

Very well said on the penalty stuff. I haven’t started my dynasty yet for a variety of reasons but like I mentioned before I’ve just been lurking around trying to keep up with everything, especially the “penalties matter” debate. I was trying to keep an open mind but when all is said and done, I totally agree with you. Especially considering that we’ve seen how gameplay elements work in Frosty and even Sabo himself said penalties don’t effecting gameplay. He’s probably quite literally the subject matter expert on the underworking of the gameplay other than the actual devs. Plus like you also said, you’ve done a lot of work on this in the past. Not going to keep beating a dead horse by any means as I’m sure you’re a bit sick of it too but just wanted to say that I appreciate the well worded and thought out post.

Anyways onto the sliders themselves - have you noticed a pretty high amount of pancake blocks by the CPU? I assume this is due to the RBK needing to be so high. And I know it affects everything but have you toyed with the speed threshold at all to see how it can help the CPU running game to allow for a lower PBK slider? I feel like arguments could be make for both sides, higher would allow combo blocks and pulling lineman to get to the second level or the point of attack, and lower would just let the RB himself be able to do a bit more.

Have been watching your two latest games just to check everything out and start getting in the flow a bit. Keeping my fingers crossed for a patch next week as I’d really like to see a few dynasty specific things cleaned up before I dive in.

Appreciate it.

Regarding the pancake blocks, you're right, it's just a symptom of needing RBK so high for the CPU due to their issues with pathfinding in tighter spaces and not reading blocks well in general. We did toy around with a lower threshold to try and help the CPU run game, but it didn't really have any tangible effect. I was surprised by this and actually did a lot of testing on this as well as a result, doing things like playing some defense only games on different threshold values and even having the CPU run 100s of run plays in practice on a 5 threshold and then 100s more on a 95 threshold and comparing the stats. I'd let the plays be random, I'd pick set plays to repeat over and over. The results were actually surprising and the 95 threshold tended to produce slightly better averages per carry, but we're talking overall less than 0.1 yards/carry difference.

Since the threshold wasn't really changing CPU run efficiency too much, I decided to base that value more around balancing other areas of the game, mainly WR separation and user running. On the lower value we initially used, 44, I found it way too easy to run as a user, especially on perimeter runs, as defenders struggled getting horizontal. With a raised value that's fixed.

Also, I didn't go all in on looking at this, but I did run a variety of run plays featuring pulling linemen on both 5 and 95 thresholds as well and would note the landmark the pulling linemen would reach as the RB would fully have possession of the ball and they were seemingly hitting the same spot no matter what indicating the pull animations may not be altered by the threshold at all. Or, it could be because acceleration seems to not really be impacted at all by the slider either. I tested this out by having the same 4 players run downfield with streak routes with the same 5 and 95 thresholds and marked where they each were when the first player reached the 10, 20, 30, and 40-yard marks and at the 10-yard mark they were always the same distances apart no matter the threshold value. Then, after 10 yards when the speed rating takes over, that's when the threshold's influence became apparent in the levels of separation created. So, maybe pull animations are either completely canned and not touched by the threshold slider or they are based on acceleration and aren't touched by that slider because of that. Either way, I didn't see a difference, but I admit I didn't go 100% all in on this test with extremely precise methods. I just noted where the front foot of the pulling lineman was at the exact same part of the hand-off animation each time and it was always pretty much the same spot no matter the threshold value.

I really hope in 27 EA finds a way to take a big leap forward with ballcarrier logic and that helps all CPU ballcarriers read blocks better and navigate traffic better so we can rely less on unrealistically good blocking and can actually see good backs navigate tight spaces like you'd expect. That would take the gameplay to a whole other level, imo. If the CPU became deadlier just running the ball in general, that'd be about the biggest boost they could give the CPU offense outside continuing to improve their coaching logic and adaptive AI logic.

[TON1C]

Appreciate it.

Regarding the pancake blocks, you're right, it's just a symptom of needing RBK so high for the CPU due to their issues with pathfinding in tighter spaces and not reading blocks well in general. We did toy around with a lower threshold to try and help the CPU run game, but it didn't really have any tangible effect. I was surprised by this and actually did a lot of testing on this as well as a result, doing things like playing some defense only games on different threshold values and even having the CPU run 100s of run plays in practice on a 5 threshold and then 100s more on a 95 threshold and comparing the stats. I'd let the plays be random, I'd pick set plays to repeat over and over. The results were actually surprising and the 95 threshold tended to produce slightly better averages per carry, but we're talking overall less than 0.1 yards/carry difference.

Since the threshold wasn't really changing CPU run efficiency too much, I decided to base that value more around balancing other areas of the game, mainly WR separation and user running. On the lower value we initially used, 44, I found it way too easy to run as a user, especially on perimeter runs, as defenders struggled getting horizontal. With a raised value that's fixed.

Also, I didn't go all in on looking at this, but I did run a variety of run plays featuring pulling linemen on both 5 and 95 thresholds as well and would note the landmark the pulling linemen would reach as the RB would fully have possession of the ball and they were seemingly hitting the same spot no matter what indicating the pull animations may not be altered by the threshold at all. Or, it could be because acceleration seems to not really be impacted at all by the slider either. I tested this out by having the same 4 players run downfield with streak routes with the same 5 and 95 thresholds and marked where they each were when the first player reached the 10, 20, 30, and 40-yard marks and at the 10-yard mark they were always the same distances apart no matter the threshold value. Then, after 10 yards when the speed rating takes over, that's when the threshold's influence became apparent in the levels of separation created. So, maybe pull animations are either completely canned and not touched by the threshold slider or they are based on acceleration and aren't touched by that slider because of that. Either way, I didn't see a difference, but I admit I didn't go 100% all in on this test with extremely precise methods. I just noted where the front foot of the pulling lineman was at the exact same part of the hand-off animation each time and it was always pretty much the same spot no matter the threshold value.

I really hope in 27 EA finds a way to take a big leap forward with ballcarrier logic and that helps all CPU ballcarriers read blocks better and navigate traffic better so we can rely less on unrealistically good blocking and can actually see good backs navigate tight spaces like you'd expect. That would take the gameplay to a whole other level, imo. If the CPU became deadlier just running the ball in general, that'd be about the biggest boost they could give the CPU offense outside continuing to improve their coaching logic and adaptive AI logic.

I’m really hoping the next patch has some playcall and CPU rb path finding fixes. But good to know on the threshold for blocking, definitely makes sense with it being speed based. So I assume there’s no other way to help the CPU running game other than decreasing user tackle?

And I also meant to ask, I know you’ve been playing with a Miami powerhouse but have you played many games recently with more mid or low tier teams? Just wondering what adjustments I might need to make as I plan on starting in the MAC, moving to a mid tier program, then a P5. I’m definitely okay with those games being even more sloppy but just want to make sure it’s not too much at least.

[Jonkatz96]

what are latest WIP sliders?

[canes21]

I’m really hoping the next patch has some playcall and CPU rb path finding fixes. But good to know on the threshold for blocking, definitely makes sense with it being speed based. So I assume there’s no other way to help the CPU running game other than decreasing user tackle?

And I also meant to ask, I know you’ve been playing with a Miami powerhouse but have you played many games recently with more mid or low tier teams? Just wondering what adjustments I might need to make as I plan on starting in the MAC, moving to a mid tier program, then a P5. I’m definitely okay with those games being even more sloppy but just want to make sure it’s not too much at least.

Only 1 game recently. North Texas(me) vs Hawaii(CPU). The game was far from too sloppy since both teams were on the weaker side and closer to even than not. Both QBs were between 55-60%, the tackling was fine since none of the skill players they were trying to tackle were studs, etc. It mostly just felt slower and less sharp than my Miami games feel, but that's how it should be.

It was only one 1 game with the current set, but it felt fine to me. I'll be starting a real dynasty here soon, so I am hoping to get something set for that dynasty. That dynasty will be starting out with a lower level team, so we want the set to feel good with both good and bad teams, which I think we're on the right track with the current WIP set.

[deadly_titanfart22]

Has anyone tried these with coach mode? I know there are some coach mode sliders out there but none of them have put in the work that Canes has and sadly it shows? I was wondering if anyone of even Canes had any input on these. I was also wondering if Canes had any input, should users sliders be the same as the CPU's for the user since its hands off outside of calling plays, or does the game inherently give the user a boost in some areas regardless?

[15GriffenR]

As someone who plays the hell out of modded madden every year, I just dont understand how modders are able to get the game playing so well with just tweaks under the hood. That means that a good game is in there hiding, right? Im not even trying to be rude, I genuinely dont understand why the product is so different from what it could be. Anyone else have any thoughts? What do you think Canes? Dont mean to hijack your thread, just a question that is even more apparent this year with how amazing modded madden is IMO. Since you have experience modding as well, I thought you might be able to give some insight

[TON1C]

As someone who plays the hell out of modded madden every year, I just dont understand how modders are able to get the game playing so well with just tweaks under the hood. That means that a good game is in there hiding, right? Im not even trying to be rude, I genuinely dont understand why the product is so different from what it could be. Anyone else have any thoughts? What do you think Canes? Dont mean to hijack your thread, just a question that is even more apparent this year with how amazing modded madden is IMO. Since you have experience modding as well, I thought you might be able to give some insight

I think a lot of it is that EA has to cater to a more casual audience overall. Sure there’s some people that want to and enjoy playing a more realistic and much harder game but the majority do not (or they regret it once they start). And I’m sure it’s the same reasoning but I wish they would expose all of these levers as actual sliders and let people go wild at least. Especially for the console players and CFB in particular.