Passing/ WR/DB interactions need an overhaul

[Bruce LeRoy]

Re: Passing/ WR/DB interactions need an overhaul

Still beating this dead horse huh, Tiburon knows this, we've been talking about it for years. Either they can't do it or they don't wanna do it, bottom line. Just do like me, refuse to buy this sorry excuse for a NFL sim til they address the issues you really want

[ggsimmonds]

Re: Passing/ WR/DB interactions need an overhaul

Well I agree with some, but I have to disagree with one thing though. I don't think every QB plays the same. I mean I was trying Brees for deep passes, he made some of them, then I tried the same with Smith and he couldn't find his man. I know there are a lot of things that need an overhaul in this game, but it's not getting enough attention, though I think the live feed and the updates are much better than FIFA's, but still. The Xbox One version of Madden isn't really "next-gen".

That is not what the op meant I think. The ratings may differ, but the way QBs play is the same. The problem is a lack of tendencies and pocket awareness (all QBs have Brady-esque pocket awareness)

Also, my main beef is DB/WR animations. The DB either goes for the int or does nothing too often. And WRs don't fight for the ball. We need incompleted passes that feel fluid. There is a animation where the DB puts his hands into the WR's arms and rips the ball out to force an incompletion; we need more of that.

[HingleMcCringleberry]

Re: Passing/ WR/DB interactions need an overhaul

That is not what the op meant I think. The ratings may differ, but the way QBs play is the same. The problem is a lack of tendencies and pocket awareness (all QBs have Brady-esque pocket awareness)

Also, my main beef is DB/WR animations. The DB either goes for the int or does nothing too often. And WRs don't fight for the ball. We need incompleted passes that feel fluid. There is a animation where the DB puts his hands into the WR's arms and rips the ball out to force an incompletion; we need more of that.

Totally agree with this

The only difference I feel with QBs is when your QB has worse accuracy, the game just decides to completely shank the pass by throwing it straight to defenders where nobody on your team is even remotely close to. Like the game just decides "you need an interception buddy" and just throws it to a defender. This has happened to me on a 3 yard pass, where i throw to a guy running wide open underneath right over the middle and the game throws it near the flat and it gets picked. And the CPU QBs have no issues throwing for 75% whether they are Blaine Gabbert or Peyton Manning, even when I pressure them all game.

Other than that, every player in Madden plays the same to me. The only really noticeable difference to me is speed and that's it. But that's what the game is built around. Why you have many players who aren't that fast but have great skills in real life to cover up that lack in speed end up being worthless in this game.

The guy that said deep balls are consistently an issue for him hit the nail right on the dead center of the head for me. It seems that whether my WR is 6'5" or 5'5", the defender will still find a way to get in perfect position to somehow jump over my guy without even looking to get the pick. AND this happens with 5+ yards separation as well. And then you can exploit the coverage so easily by doing audibles until they press on you, send the wideout on a fly, and the corner will get stuck in the backfield at least 7 times out of 10. You can do the same exact thing with loose coverage and short routes.

Dropped passes are an absolute NIGHTMARE. I can't even explain how frustrating it is when you have a wide open guy with nobody around him only for him to drop a perfectly placed pass 3 times in a row since he is not Calvin Johnson or something. I create all my WRs to have 95+ catch to solve this issue, since everyone under that seems to have hands like feet for me. And then when the WRs run option routes, their decision making is horrendous. Just absolutely awful. They will often stop right in triple coverage with the option wide open, and I would throw it thinking he was breaking toward the option, only for both my QB and WR to be on a different page than me as I watch the errant pass go right into the triple coverage.

And back to the cone thing, I loved the cone. Was it flawed? of course. Was it a good implementation to try to create a realistic passing scenario? most definitely. But they never had it in long enough to improve on it and make it into something that would have been incredible (wasn't it around for like only one year?). Sure it would be nice if they implemented it again, but we have been here before. Something that was a good step in the right direction in the past gets removed shortly after only for them to recycle it years later claiming it as a brand new thing, as they create and fuel the whole advertising/marketing hype train.

[ggsimmonds]

Re: Passing/ WR/DB interactions need an overhaul

Totally agree with this

The only difference I feel with QBs is when your QB has worse accuracy, the game just decides to completely shank the pass by throwing it straight to defenders where nobody on your team is even remotely close to. Like the game just decides "you need an interception buddy" and just throws it to a defender. This has happened to me on a 3 yard pass, where i throw to a guy running wide open underneath right over the middle and the game throws it near the flat and it gets picked. And the CPU QBs have no issues throwing for 75% whether they are Blaine Gabbert or Peyton Manning, even when I pressure them all game.

Other than that, every player in Madden plays the same to me. The only really noticeable difference to me is speed and that's it. But that's what the game is built around. Why you have many players who aren't that fast but have great skills in real life to cover up that lack in speed end up being worthless in this game.

The guy that said deep balls are consistently an issue for him hit the nail right on the dead center of the head for me. It seems that whether my WR is 6'5" or 5'5", the defender will still find a way to get in perfect position to somehow jump over my guy without even looking to get the pick. AND this happens with 5+ yards separation as well. And then you can exploit the coverage so easily by doing audibles until they press on you, send the wideout on a fly, and the corner will get stuck in the backfield at least 7 times out of 10. You can do the same exact thing with loose coverage and short routes.

Dropped passes are an absolute NIGHTMARE. I can't even explain how frustrating it is when you have a wide open guy with nobody around him only for him to drop a perfectly placed pass 3 times in a row since he is not Calvin Johnson or something. I create all my WRs to have 95+ catch to solve this issue, since everyone under that seems to have hands like feet for me. And then when the WRs run option routes, their decision making is horrendous. Just absolutely awful. They will often stop right in triple coverage with the option wide open, and I would throw it thinking he was breaking toward the option, only for both my QB and WR to be on a different page than me as I watch the errant pass go right into the triple coverage.

And back to the cone thing, I loved the cone. Was it flawed? of course. Was it a good implementation to try to create a realistic passing scenario? most definitely. But they never had it in long enough to improve on it and make it into something that would have been incredible (wasn't it around for like only one year?). Sure it would be nice if they implemented it again, but we have been here before. Something that was a good step in the right direction in the past gets removed shortly after only for them to recycle it years later claiming it as a brand new thing, as they create and fuel the whole advertising/marketing hype train.

The dropped passes issue goes back to my beef with incompletions. The lack of animations and off target passes necessitates drops in order to have anything close to realistic completion percentages. You can watch a game and see a pass where the QB overthrows it and the WR is only able to get a fingertip on it, but you don't see this in madden.

As for the cone, I loved it. It was in for two years if I recall. In the second year it became optional. Buried in the menus was an option to turn it on

[KingV2k3]

Re: Passing/ WR/DB interactions need an overhaul

I'm hoping that EA is inspired by the Seahawks win and does a D overhaul like they did in 2005's "Fear the D" campaign...

Put Sherman on the box and make proper WR / DB interaction a "marketing feature"...

Based on past experience, that's the most likely way to make sure that actually happens...

Tie it to a "box feature"...

[infemous]

Re: Passing/ WR/DB interactions need an overhaul

I've been saying it for a long time but the passing mechanic needs to be slightly adjusted, so that there is a gauge (can toggle whether its visible or not) that determines the velocity and subsequent trajectory of a throw.

Meanwhile, as the gauge fills, the QB winds his arm up. A QBs throwing motion and release speed will affect the speed with which the gauge fills up, and their throw power will determine the differences between how fast the ball travels (and its trajectory) at various stages of the gauge being released.

This will then allow for a much more fluid passing mechanic, that will allow for more nuance in the passing game. Different QBs can make different kind of throws. Some players may prefer a QB with only 75 THP because of the touch they can put on throws that a 99 THP QB may not be able to make. Different throwing motions will actually have a small but significant impact on the passing game and again preferences for throwing styles can be established (some may like a slow wind up to be more precise with how to throw it).

You combine this mechanic with QBs being able to miss more throws by smaller margins, more animations for DBs and WRs to attempt to make plays on different types of throws (not always successful) and just generally more pass deflections by DBs in good position instead of INTs and then you have an overhauled passing game without touching on the actual WR and DB interactions down the field too.

Another essential aspect that needs to be addressed is that the pocket needs to be smaller, and the left stick should afford WAY more control to move your QB within it (depending on a QB Footwork rating - which I have written about way too often - basically it affects drop back speed and QB speed/movement/animations within the pocket)

Then having a right stick to assign to do special moves, if a player has the ability to do that special move, allows for more creativity and realistic ways of avoiding sacks and pressure, just like real QBs do.

[BleedingGreen83]

Re: Passing/ WR/DB interactions need an overhaul

There's so little time to throw that having any kind of gauge, like on kick offs, would make it impossible to throw. OL blocking is laughably bad. I think the mechanics now are good, like how long you hold the button. Everything else about passing sucks.

Speaking of passing and bad OL... the screen game is so bad.i can't count how many times I have open field in front of my and I only need ONE of the THREE OL running in front of me to block the one DB and not one of them attempts to block him and it's like a 2yard gain.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Re: Passing/ WR/DB interactions need an overhaul

I love the idea of a passing gauge and I posted about on the NCAA forums a while back. The idea I would have is that the gauge would start in the red and swing into the green before back into the red. You have to release the button at the proper time to actually throw the ball, if you just held the button down it would result in an errant throw. Also, if you were hit while the gauge was in the red it would be a much, much higher chance of a fumble to discourage those goofballs who just tap a button at the last second.

[infemous]

Re: Passing/ WR/DB interactions need an overhaul

There's so little time to throw that having any kind of gauge, like on kick offs, would make it impossible to throw. OL blocking is laughably bad. I think the mechanics now are good, like how long you hold the button. Everything else about passing sucks.

Speaking of passing and bad OL... the screen game is so bad.i can't count how many times I have open field in front of my and I only need ONE of the THREE OL running in front of me to block the one DB and not one of them attempts to block him and it's like a 2yard gain.

when I say gauge I mean that it works in exactly the same way as the FIFA passing gauge. It is just a meter that can be visible or not that is entirely dependent on how long you hold it. The difference between what we have now and what I am suggesting is that instead of having 3 'ranges' which is touch, middle and power that are kind of roughly estimated and are an inexact science, you can create a method that has very specific and controllable stages.

Think of it like on FIFA when playing on manual settings, just a simple X pass to the guy to the left of you, you have to mentally take into account how much velocity you want to put on the pass, and there are clear differences when you release the button at different times.

Essentially, they need to create like a million more trajectories and map it to a functional system, which then takes into account throwing animation style (for wind up).


A perfect example of the mechanic I am suggesting is in Top Spin Tennis 4.

Check it out. Its so simple and so effective, just under utilised due to the lack of animations (or signature ones) - but it works because a player's attributes aren't the only aspect that determine whether you like using them, meaning you have to really search to find someone who fits your playstyle. This search for someone who fits your playstyle in Madden would essentially force players to discover 'scheme fits' and develop their own scheme instead of taking Cam Newton/RGIII and running around and flinging it down field all the time.

Some dude could pick apart your D with Ryan Fitzpatrick because he's mastered the way to utilise his skillset and he can read a defense well enough to overcome his shortcomings.

I get giddy imagining the possibilities such a simple adjustment could make to one of the most underwhelming aspect of the game.

(of course, it'd be funny to hear how bad the backlash would be because people couldn't throw for 600 yards every game until they got used to it. I know a lot of people who gave up on Top Spin after struggling at first, when all it took me was about 5 days of actually working on it to start seeing some success and to discover what it was I looked for in a player)