EA Still Owns the NFL License Exclusively

[hanzsomehanz]

Re: EA Still Owns the NFL License Exclusively

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Did you share the NFL 2K(year '99/'00) sales? There is no year date offered - just looking for confirmation that those are the sales for NFL2K4.



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[hanzsomehanz]

Re: EA Still Owns the NFL License Exclusively

and why do you think that is??

The new ones aint always the best ones, like classic love songs: we sometimes playback the oldies because they have an everlasting appeal.

Its more than nostsalga; the classic product has a genuine everlasting pleasure that appeals to your senses.

Those games, NFL 2K4 and 2K5, Madden 04 and 05, they were rated very high and packed a fresh substance that still lingers today.

Those classic games of the past held that unique aura of Je ne sais quoi that these current Madden titles lack.

I personally feel the game becomes more cheapened the more it replaces sim aspects with gimmicky practices.

Fast food Football gaming will not satisfy my appetite: feed me a gourmet menu.

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[Hooe]

Re: EA Still Owns the NFL License Exclusively

No one WANTS to play an outdated football game. How many people do you hear about playing MLB the Show '08 or NBA 2k7? Probably none. People want to play the BEST game. That is something, as strange as it may seem, that appears to escape the minds of many on this board. They want to believe that it is fanboyism or "agenda" pushing instead. All of that is complete nonsense and is not worth entertaining in the least. Gamers want high quality and realism in their sports games, that has ALWAYS been the case. No one gives a damn about brands and who's name is on the box. They will gravitate towards the best games that meet those two requirements. It is extremely telling that you have a significant number of people still reaching back and playing outdated games when it comes to football. Madden is finally on a track of improvement after a completely wasted decade in which football gaming went backwards. Yes - backwards. We have less now than we did 10 years ago and football is the only sport in that situation. The bar has significantly been raised in all other major sports. Madden is still struggling to deliver a full featured, complete game while other franchises are adding things like real TV presentation, multiple broadcast teams, incredibly deep career and owner modes, storylines, etc. Meanwhile, football is still clamoring for proper player movement, penalties, ball physics, player interaction and authenticity.

What constitutes the "best" game is completely and entirely subjective. It's not cut-and-dry or as plainly clear as day as you make it out to be across the many posts you've made to this end recently. Some people, such as myself, think that Madden is the best total-package football game at this point, and that is a perfectly valid subjective opinion to hold. I am an educated consumer, I have played all available options up to this point, I prefer Madden.

I don't believe that football gaming has gone "backwards" in totality at this point because the most recent Madden games I have enjoyed as total packages more than any other football game I have ever played. You pose "football gaming has gone backwards" seemingly as fact. That's your opinion to hold, but that's all it is, opinion.

Madden may lack some things previous games had, yes. Madden may have some legacy issues, yes. Every other football game ever released, however, also endures technical issues and things it lacks. To me, Madden represents the best total package option available - compared to all other options - when considering gameplay accessibility, gameplay depth, variety / depth / functionality of game modes, online player base and functionality, and so on. I have held this opinion about the past several versions of the game. I have no desire to go back and play older football games, and I haven't for about the past five years or so now. That doesn't make me a fanboy. That doesn't make me a better or worse (speaking to tastes) gamer than you. That makes me a person with an opinion who differs from yours because my criteria for a quality total game is not the same as yours.

As to agenda posting - agenda posting is a person posting the same thought over and over again across multiple threads regardless of thread topic to the point where it inhibits constructive discussion in the forums.

[NicVirtue]

Re: EA Still Owns the NFL License Exclusively

What constitutes the "best" game is completely and entirely subjective. It's not cut-and-dry or as plainly clear as day as you make it out to be across the many posts you've made to this end recently. Some people, such as myself, think that Madden is the best total-package football game at this point, and that is a perfectly valid subjective opinion to hold. I am an educated consumer, I have played all available options up to this point, I prefer Madden.

I don't believe that football gaming has gone "backwards" in totality at this point because the most recent Madden games I have enjoyed as total packages more than any other football game I have ever played. You pose "football gaming has gone backwards" seemingly as fact. That's your opinion to hold, but that's all it is, opinion.

Madden may lack some things previous games had, yes. Madden may have some legacy issues, yes. Every other football game ever released, however, also endures technical issues and things it lacks. To me, Madden represents the best total package option available - compared to all other options - when considering gameplay accessibility, gameplay depth, variety / depth / functionality of game modes, online player base and functionality, and so on. I have held this opinion about the past several versions of the game. I have no desire to go back and play older football games, and I haven't for about the past five years or so now. That doesn't make me a fanboy. That doesn't make me a better or worse (speaking to tastes) gamer than you. That makes me a person with an opinion who differs from yours because my criteria for a quality total game is not the same as yours.

As to agenda posting - agenda posting is a person posting the same thought over and over again across multiple threads regardless of thread topic to the point where it inhibits constructive discussion in the forums.

When a 10/7 year old game is more fundamentally sound, authentic, and true to the sport than a game that is supposed to come out in 2014, then I think saying "it's subject to opinion" is a bit of a cop out. When it comes to football, there is a plethora of things that 1 game has, that the more recent game does not. That's not an opinion, that's a fact of the lack of football aspect from a recent NFL game, compared to a decade old game. When people can literally go back and point out all the things that 1 game has, that the other game does not, it being an "opinion" is out the door. It's as black and white as it gets. 1 game is as authentic as we ever had, and the other seems to be struggling to get there. I't been quite evident over the years.

I mean you can say you like not having pass interference called 95% of the time. That doesn't mean your preference is true to the game of football. You can say you like no double team tackling. That doesn't mean your preference is true to the game of football. There is a laundry list of things not done in Madden, that have been done 10 years ago in another game. There is a laundry list of things Madden has, but hasn't done right, that the other game has done right 10 years ago. With those things, I don't see how it can be subject to opinion, when the bottom line is NFL Football, and what happens on Sunday. The problem is that people have been trained to play Madden, not football. You can enjoy it for what it is, but it dam sure isn't an authentic representation of football. If it were, people like me wouldn't need to go back and play the "other" game.

[Cre8]

Re: EA Still Owns the NFL License Exclusively

I think the bottom line is that competition in the market drove far greater advances in gameplay and game modes in general. I actually always preferred Madden to 2K when it came down to it. This conversation has been going on for 10 years now.

After seeing the internet rumor sources rise and fall within a week I am ready to put it all to rest. If I buy a Madden title it will be pre-owned and that is simply because the game is rarely worth an annual $60+ IMO.

[Hooe]

Re: EA Still Owns the NFL License Exclusively

When a 10/7 year old game is more fundamentally sound, authentic, and true to the sport than a game that is supposed to come out in 2014, then I think saying "it's subject to opinion" is a bit of a cop out. When it comes to football, there is a plethora of things that 1 game has, that the more recent game does not. That's not an opinion, that's a fact of the lack of football aspect from a recent NFL game, compared to a decade old game. When people can literally go back and point out all the things that 1 game has, that the other game does not, it being an "opinion" is out the door. It's as black and white as it gets. 1 game is as authentic as we ever had, and the other seems to be struggling to get there. I't been quite evident over the years.

I mean you can say you like not having pass interference called 95% of the time. That doesn't mean your preference is true to the game of football. You can say you like no double team tackling. That doesn't mean your preference is true to the game of football. There is a laundry list of things not done in Madden, that have been done 10 years ago in another game. There is a laundry list of things Madden has, but hasn't done right, that the other game has done right 10 years ago. With those things, I don't see how it can be subject to opinion, when the bottom line is NFL Football, and what happens on Sunday. The problem is that people have been trained to play Madden, not football. You can enjoy it for what it is, but it dam sure isn't an authentic representation of football. If it were, people like me wouldn't need to go back and play the "other" game.

The basis for my opinion: I care about franchise mode more than anything else. A lack of double-team tackling doesn't bother me as much as AI teams drafting only quarterbacks, running backs, left tackles, and defensive ends in the first round, thus allowing me the user to "game" the draft because of predictable and poor programming. A lack of textbook proper run fills doesn't bother me as much as completely opaque player progression logic with zero feedback, thus inhibiting and/or completely stopping my ability to meaningfully develop talent on my roster. A lack of foot planting for all 22 players on the field doesn't bother me as much as a complete absence of franchise mode from a game altogether.

I'm less bothered by what the other games are doing that Madden isn't because there are things those old games do poorly / don't do at all which Madden does do. Madden plays well enough on the field for my personal tastes, warts and all, because its career mode options are in my opinion superior to anything else that is currently offered.

Finally, maybe I don't care about playing a 100% authentic simulation on the field. What's wrong with my opinion? It's a video game. I play video games to escape from reality and enjoy myself. If I want a simulation, I'll go outside and play pitch-and-catch with my brother.

[coogrfan]

Re: EA Still Owns the NFL License Exclusively

Did you share the NFL 2K(year '99/'00) sales? There is no year date offered - just looking for confirmation that those are the sales for NFL2K4.



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No, the numbers I listed were for 2003 and 2004. Sega's 2003 fb title was released as "ESPN NFL Football" with a small "2K4 in the bottom right corner of the cover.

[TombSong]

Re: EA Still Owns the NFL License Exclusively

When a 10/7 year old game is more fundamentally sound, authentic, and true to the sport than a game that is supposed to come out in 2014, then I think saying "it's subject to opinion" is a bit of a cop out. When it comes to football, there is a plethora of things that 1 game has, that the more recent game does not. That's not an opinion, that's a fact of the lack of football aspect from a recent NFL game, compared to a decade old game. When people can literally go back and point out all the things that 1 game has, that the other game does not, it being an "opinion" is out the door. It's as black and white as it gets. 1 game is as authentic as we ever had, and the other seems to be struggling to get there. I't been quite evident over the years.

I mean you can say you like not having pass interference called 95% of the time. That doesn't mean your preference is true to the game of football. You can say you like no double team tackling. That doesn't mean your preference is true to the game of football. There is a laundry list of things not done in Madden, that have been done 10 years ago in another game. There is a laundry list of things Madden has, but hasn't done right, that the other game has done right 10 years ago. With those things, I don't see how it can be subject to opinion, when the bottom line is NFL Football, and what happens on Sunday. The problem is that people have been trained to play Madden, not football. You can enjoy it for what it is, but it dam sure isn't an authentic representation of football. If it were, people like me wouldn't need to go back and play the "other" game.

This is Gospel. 1st OS chapter 1 verse 1.

[bucky60]

Re: EA Still Owns the NFL License Exclusively

The basis for my opinion: I care about franchise mode more than anything else. A lack of double-team tackling doesn't bother me as much as AI teams drafting only quarterbacks, running backs, left tackles, and defensive ends in the first round, thus allowing me the user to "game" the draft because of predictable and poor programming. A lack of textbook proper run fills doesn't bother me as much as completely opaque player progression logic with zero feedback, thus inhibiting and/or completely stopping my ability to meaningfully develop talent on my roster. A lack of foot planting for all 22 players on the field doesn't bother me as much as a complete absence of franchise mode from a game altogether.

You have every right to want what you want. So does everybody else. And since the game is clearly being advertised as a Sim, those that want sim shouldn't have to go outside and "play catch" or play a 10 year old game to get sim.

Your preference for progression logic is also personal taste. As I've said before, I find that completely controlling progression (as you like it) is far to STATIC and BORING and not nearly dynamic enough for me. Plus it's unrealistic in a game being advertised as SIM/REALISTIC. So those of us wanting a realistic progression system and realistic off-field franchise seem to have a very valid opinion.

Finally, maybe I don't care about playing a 100% authentic simulation on the field. What's wrong with my opinion? It's a video game. I play video games to escape from reality and enjoy myself. If I want a simulation, I'll go outside and play pitch-and-catch with my brother.

The game is being advertised for realism and simulation. That opens it up for constructive dialogue and criticism where it falls short.

[Hooe]

Re: EA Still Owns the NFL License Exclusively

The game is being advertised for realism and simulation. That opens it up for constructive dialogue and criticism where it falls short.

Sure, there's an opportunity for a constructive critical dialogue, and that's fine. That's actually what I want from this forum, a constructive and positively-aimed critical dialogue about Madden. It's why I signed up for OS twelve years ago.

That said, there's a difference between having a constructive dialogue about the merits of a game and preaching about everything wrong with a game from the virtual bully pulpit of internet anonymity, to the detriment of any other constructive thought anyone else may ever have about said game. There's a difference between an open-minded discussion and a bullheaded argument holding an unwillingness to entertain another person's point of view to make one point about a game repeatedly across the entire forum.

[bucky60]

Re: EA Still Owns the NFL License Exclusively

That said, there's a difference between having a constructive dialogue about the merits of a game and preaching about everything wrong/right with a game from the virtual bully pulpit of internet anonymity, to the detriment of any other constructive thought anyone else may ever have about said game. There's a difference between an open-minded discussion and a bullheaded argument holding an unwillingness to entertain another person's point of view to make one point about a game repeatedly across the entire forum.

You mean like my view on progression where I was respectful to others opinions and I was falsely and blindly accused by a mod of holding a grudge. I'm for a truly open minded discussion as well.

[hanzsomehanz]

Re: EA Still Owns the NFL License Exclusively

When a 10/7 year old game is more fundamentally sound, authentic, and true to the sport than a game that is supposed to come out in 2014, then I think saying "it's subject to opinion" is a bit of a cop out. When it comes to football, there is a plethora of things that 1 game has, that the more recent game does not. That's not an opinion, that's a fact of the lack of football aspect from a recent NFL game, compared to a decade old game. When people can literally go back and point out all the things that 1 game has, that the other game does not, it being an "opinion" is out the door. It's as black and white as it gets. 1 game is as authentic as we ever had, and the other seems to be struggling to get there. I't been quite evident over the years.

I mean you can say you like not having pass interference called 95% of the time. That doesn't mean your preference is true to the game of football. You can say you like no double team tackling. That doesn't mean your preference is true to the game of football. There is a laundry list of things not done in Madden, that have been done 10 years ago in another game. There is a laundry list of things Madden has, but hasn't done right, that the other game has done right 10 years ago. With those things, I don't see how it can be subject to opinion, when the bottom line is NFL Football, and what happens on Sunday. The problem is that people have been trained to play Madden, not football. You can enjoy it for what it is, but it dam sure isn't an authentic representation of football. If it were, people like me wouldn't need to go back and play the "other" game.

Amen: football in shades of gray may as well be football in charades.

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[hanzsomehanz]

Re: EA Still Owns the NFL License Exclusively

I would like to see the '03 sales for the two '04 titles and compare them to the $19.99 vs $29.99 sales of 2K5 and Madden 05.

*I do not doubt the loyalty of NFL 2K fans: there does seem to be a fraction more of them playing outdated football games compared to madden fans.

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Originally Posted by coogrfan
For what it's worth, according to vgchartz:

Madden NFL 2004 (North America) PS2 4.26 million units + XB 1.02 million units = 5.28 million units.

ESPN NFL Football (North America) PS2 .27 million units + XB .27 million units = .54 million units.

Madden NFL 2005 (North America) PS2 4.18 million units + XB 1.61 million units = 5.79 million units.

ESPN NFL 2k5 (North America) PS2 2.15 million units + XB .1.54 million units = 3.69 million units.

Thank-you!

That is astonishing that a product rated as well as 2K4 did not even reach 1 Million unit sales across both consoles combined - barely over 500k units were sold total!

Advance a year, advance the release date, set a budget price and voila: you have now eaten into Millions! of the EA market share.

What is also astoniahing is that Madden '05 sales still increased over the Madden '04 sales which tells me that more consumers opened up to 2K who were not even maybe interested in either title originally but could not pass up the value of $19.99 that 2K offered.

The numbers also suggest that many Madden users purchased both 2K and Madden that season - very likely the case considering the early release date of the 2K5 title.

2K really shook the market in 2004 and shook is an understatement.

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[coogrfan]

Re: EA Still Owns the NFL License Exclusively

Lots of interesting things there.

I understand what you think is an issue, and I can understand why the general consumer would look at it that way, but it's all conjecture. This is not how the NFL was thinking at the time, nor are they today. As long as they're getting paid 10's of Millions upfront, they're not going to care what the retail price of a product is. It doesn't work that way. This was purely an EA vs. 2K issue concerning pricing, profit margin and market share.

With respect, I believe you're seriously mistaken here. It is my understanding that back when EA and Sega were both in the football game business the NFL/NFLPA did not get paid up front:

In the "olden days", the 3 companies paid the NFL/PA a royalty per unit sold, at roughly 10%. Let's say the total football market is about 6 million units. 6 million x $60 x 10% = $36M annually to the NFL. The current EA deal with the NFL pays them between $60M-$70M per year, regardless of units sold.

If this is correct (and DrJones was in a position to know since he actually worked for EA prior to "the Great Purge") that means that Sega wound up paying the NFL only a $1.99 per unit sold instead of $4.99. The notion that the NFL wouldn't care about this or the precedent it might set vis a vis their other business partners is fanciful at best.

Besides, 2K wasn't planning to keep the price at that level forever. This was a one-time thing to gain market visibility, and boy did it work. For as much as their is conjecture about cheapening, what nobody is considering is how confident 2K had to be that their product would be responded to in the way it was. Had it bombed, it would've likely ended their development on football. Everything they did that year was white knuckle and rebellious, and I loved every minute of it.

Confident or desperate? Again according to VGChartz:


NFL 2k3 (North America) PS2 1.06 million units + XB .38 million units = 1.44 million units


ESPN NFL Football (aka NFL 2k4) PS2 .27 million units + XB .27 million total = .54 million


That's a 62% drop in sales from 2002 to 2003. Under those circumstances I can certainly understand why Sega felt they needed to roll the dice.

Unfortunately, football development ended anyway because of the licensing issue, but 2K did take a huge leap of faith there because they believed in themselves that their product deserved more share because it was good enough, and I agreed with them. So did about 4.26 Million others.

Perhaps. The fact that it was an licensed NFL game for a mere $20 and it was released three weeks before Madden (July 20th vs Aug 9th) may have had little something to do with those numbers as well.

[coogrfan]

Re: EA Still Owns the NFL License Exclusively

Sega NFL football sales figures:

http://www.vgchartz.com/gamedb/?name=nfl&publisher=1452&platform=&genre=&minSales=0&results=200

Madden sales figures:

http://www.vgchartz.com/gamedb/?name=madden+&publisher=&platform=&genre=&minSales=0&results=200