Madden NFL 16 Features All-New Controls to Dominate Air Supremacy

[SageInfinite]

Re: Madden NFL 16 Features All-New Controls to Dominate Air Supremacy

Here is the problem: Everybody's definition of "authenticity and a realistic representation of the sport" isnt the same. Not even on OS.

There are plenty of people here that think Madden is "realistic". They look at the animations, the presentation elements, the sound and some of the franchise elements and consider it to be very realistic.

I am one of the people who liked Madden 15 alot and think its only a few features (WR/DB interaction, Penalties, Pre-play movement and out of game formation subs) from being considered realistic to me. I also think that compared to the game that was being produced by the last dev team, this game is much more realistic.

There are also plenty of people who even if they added all the things that I want wouldnt consider the game realistic and think that everything from the animation engine to graphics to game modes should be redone and made more realistic.

Now in 2 yrs, if there isnt "true gap play", you can question why the dev team didnt follow through on its promise. Same goes for the "overhaul of the play action system." But we arent going to allow devs to be bashed or "called out" just because a dev made a generic statement like "we want more realism" that can be interpreted several ways. Especially when "realism" is subjective.

LOL. Aiight man yall got it. You won't hear another word from me.

[aholbert32]

Re: Madden NFL 16 Features All-New Controls to Dominate Air Supremacy

LOL. Aiight man yall got it. You won't hear another word from me.

LOL. Nah man. I'm not trying to stop anyone from expressing their opinion about the game as long as its done in an intelligent way.

I'm trying to avoid posts like "Rex said this game was going to be realistic by year 3 and the game doesnt have any ****ing hand towels!!!" If you express yourself intelligently and can support your point, you dont have to worry about getting banned.

[mjavon]

Re: Madden NFL 16 Features All-New Controls to Dominate Air Supremacy

There it is. Rex's words not ours. Fans can't get frustrated or call us "haters" when the dev of the game you hold so dearly is saying these things and we want them to be held to it. We shouldn't be banned or warned for calling them out for not being truthful. This is what Tiburon wants. Like I said they're talking the talk, they need to walk with it.

You're right, but to be fair he said it was a long-term goal of the series which they will build to over the next 3-4 years (starting with M25).

If I base my thoughts on this Q&A, I think of Madden 25 - 17 as ONE game, the final version of which will be released as Madden 17. Madden 25, 15, and 16 are more like WIP or betas/alphas whatever you want to call it in this perspective.

As long as they stick to that plan and continue to make improvements year-to-year with some pace, leading to that "final" version in 2016, I feel like I can't really blame them. It appears they're doing exactly what Rex said they were doing.

[RACZILLA]

Re: Madden NFL 16 Features All-New Controls to Dominate Air Supremacy

This right here furthers my point I made awhile back that I don't believe you really believe some of the stuff you post in relation to Madden, you just do it for the sake of discussion or whatever, which is cool. However it's unfortunate that some may read some of this stuff and think you are actually being genuine with some of the more peculiar positions.

What I'm referring to is, the section of my post you chose to specifically quote and respond to was based on a similar point you made in a post awhile back, which now you seem to be debating against. As to be fair and not accused of any kind of silly "I gotcha" mess, I didnt direct the post at you nor did I quote you fully, I added plenty of my own thoughts and sentiments, yet you still managed to isolate the part which most closely mirrored your own earlier statements to rebutt.

Spoiler

http://www.operationsports.com/forum...&postcount=156

So again I honestly enjoy our discussions about various things, it just becomes difficult at times to tell when you're stating what you actually believe vs just playing devil's advocate or whatever.

Sometimes it's just a matter of perspective. For example, I agree in principal with what CM Hooe said about developers having an artistic vision and ultimately players can and will evaluate how they feel about it. If I'm talking to a friend of mine who is frustrated about a game for a long time, I might point out that one particular thing that bothers them may never change and ask how it helps them to put so much energy into being upset.

On the flip side, it's helpful for developers to understand that players have absolutely no incentive whatsoever to care about how hard it is to do something, that it might be frustrating reading angry messages, etc. As the saying goes, the customer is always right.

So while these ideas are more or less opposite, both are very much real when it comes to how developers and players relate. If either party cares enough to the point of real dialogue, there's probably value in listening and understanding as much as there is in sharing our unique perspectives.

[Hooe]

Re: Madden NFL 16 Features All-New Controls to Dominate Air Supremacy

This is also true -- which is why I still don't understand why PS2 era editions were held in such high regard.

Still, the caveat is that every other AAA sports title has shown that you can gear the game towards authenticity, and still come up on the right side of accessibility. Their current approach still lends itself to Madden having an identity issue.

Agreed wholeheartedly that what they are doing now does lead to a two-faced game in some respects. As Aaron said, Tiburon is gradually moving more in the "sim" direction, but they're not going to pull out all the stops doing so. They have a large audience which expects a certain type of experience with their product that they don't want to alienate.

[Hooe]

Re: Madden NFL 16 Features All-New Controls to Dominate Air Supremacy

So again I honestly enjoy our discussions about various things, it just becomes difficult at times to tell when you're stating what you actually believe vs just playing devil's advocate or whatever.

I'm sorry you think that? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Beyond that I'm not going to even entertain a debate on my credibility or inconsistency. It's not relevant to the discussion of Madden NFL the video game.

[illiterateoption]

Re: Madden NFL 16 Features All-New Controls to Dominate Air Supremacy

"Tiburon is making the game they want to make, they are following their creative vision as artists and game developers. It's up to you whether you enjoy the product they are making, which from the tenor of your posts you've clearly established you don't. They aren't really obligated to listen to their audience full cloth, though it's useful to solicit some feedback and massage that into future versions." - CM HOOE



As much as I'd love to see Madden hit level 100 on absolute authenticity, I agree with CM HOOE, that obviously isn't what EA-Tib wants to do. Which is fine by me. I don't really need every little detail we see on Sunday implemented into my video games. Would it be great? Yeah. I really enjoy that about APF. Barry Sanders runs and plays differently from Earl Campbell. I think that kind of authenticity should be in Madden but I also understand that may not be the plan developers have.

My #1 issue: What is advertised vs what is delivered in Madden. Madden, during 90% of the PS3/360 era and now across two iterations of the PS4/XB1 era has failed to deliver against their own gameplay aspirations and commitments.

Player Sense: Doesn't work. Characters on the user and CPU's team still fail to recognize situational football (down and distance) and simple fundamentals of football. I realize this may be difficult to program, but this was a HUGE feature promoted within these games that fails miserably.

Infinity/Ignite Physics: The amount of evidence showing the failure of Cam Webber's Madden 13 promise of "never see the same tackle twice" is staggering. You can play 1-2 minutes worth of game play and see the same tackle animations several times over. The failure of the tackling/physics system is magnified by the wonky animations and countless bodies hitting the deck on over half the plays. Physics? Weight? Momentum?

Redundant or Duplicating Animations (in sequence): This was a huge eye sore early in the last gen and its come back in full force. WR/DB animations shouldn't be synchronized, especially with a physics system fully implemented.

War In the Trenches: This is as much of an indictment vs player sense as anything. Linemen continue to make decisions that are fundamentally wrong. Blown assignments and very simple win vs lose animations dominate line play on both sides of the ball.

Elimination of Suction/Morphing: Its still there in a big fat annoying and ugly way. Nothing makes you feel like you wasted your $65 on Madden, or even a Next Gen console, then watching Kam Chancellor get sucked into a blocking animation/interaction or Joe Staley sliding/morphing into position to pick up a blitzing linebacker. Its just ugly.

Those are just a few examples.

Forget SIM Nirvana, forget legitimate authenticity, but look at Madden's own commitment to their product and I promise that you'll find they've come up short both last and this gen. That's what separates the PS2 era from the most recent. For whatever reason - whatever they promoted or implemented in PS2/XBOX era simply worked. You got what you paid for and ratings were respected - while animations ran much smoother in general. PS2 era Madden also had very Limited sliding, limited clipping/morphing -which is why the PS2 era is looked upon as the golden age and for some remains a more enjoyable football gaming experience.

When EA acquired the Exclusive License they rested and stopped putting out a product that was worthy of being the only game in town. The game got worse during the transition from PS2/XBOX to PS3/XBOX360. Not just worse, it was an abomination in HD and Madden has yet to recover.

[PeoplesChampGB]

Re: Madden NFL 16 Features All-New Controls to Dominate Air Supremacy

I honestly feel that either EA Corporate or the developers are afraid to rewrite the code and make it "new" like the FIFA and NHL titles because they might not be able to get it back on par with what they have now. Then we will be back to Madden 06 on 360 again. So they just overlap new features or engines with what they have and pray for the best. Not the best philosophy but it is what it is.

[Mr.Smif]

Re: Madden NFL 16 Features All-New Controls to Dominate Air Supremacy

"Tiburon is making the game they want to make, they are following their creative vision as artists and game developers. It's up to you whether you enjoy the product they are making, which from the tenor of your posts you've clearly established you don't. They aren't really obligated to listen to their audience full cloth, though it's useful to solicit some feedback and massage that into future versions." - CM HOOE



As much as I'd love to see Madden hit level 100 on absolute authenticity, I agree with CM HOOE, that obviously isn't what EA-Tib wants to do. Which is fine by me. I don't really need every little detail we see on Sunday implemented into my video games. Would it be great? Yeah. I really enjoy that about APF. Barry Sanders runs and plays differently from Earl Campbell. I think that kind of authenticity should be in Madden but I also understand that may not be the plan developers have.

My #1 issue: What is advertised vs what is delivered in Madden. Madden, during 90% of the PS3/360 era and now across two iterations of the PS4/XB1 era has failed to deliver against their own gameplay aspirations and commitments.

Player Sense: Doesn't work. Characters on the user and CPU's team still fail to recognize situational football (down and distance) and simple fundamentals of football. I realize this may be difficult to program, but this was a HUGE feature promoted within these games that fails miserably.

Infinity/Ignite Physics: The amount of evidence showing the failure of Cam Webber's Madden 13 promise of "never see the same tackle twice" is staggering. You can play 1-2 minutes worth of game play and see the same tackle animations several times over. The failure of the tackling/physics system is magnified by the wonky animations and countless bodies hitting the deck on over half the plays. Physics? Weight? Momentum?

Redundant or Duplicating Animations (in sequence): This was a huge eye sore early in the last gen and its come back in full force. WR/DB animations shouldn't be synchronized, especially with a physics system fully implemented.

War In the Trenches: This is as much of an indictment vs player sense as anything. Linemen continue to make decisions that are fundamentally wrong. Blown assignments and very simple win vs lose animations dominate line play on both sides of the ball.

Elimination of Suction/Morphing: Its still there in a big fat annoying and ugly way. Nothing makes you feel like you wasted your $65 on Madden, or even a Next Gen console, then watching Kam Chancellor get sucked into a blocking animation/interaction or Joe Staley sliding/morphing into position to pick up a blitzing linebacker. Its just ugly.

Those are just a few examples.

Forget SIM Nirvana, forget legitimate authenticity, but look at Madden's own commitment to their product and I promise that you'll find they've come up short both last and this gen. That's what separates the PS2 era from the most recent. For whatever reason - whatever they promoted or implemented in PS2/XBOX era simply worked. You got what you paid for and ratings were respected - while animations ran much smoother in general. PS2 era Madden also had very Limited sliding, limited clipping/morphing -which is why the PS2 era is looked upon as the golden age and for some remains a more enjoyable football gaming experience.

When EA acquired the Exclusive License they rested and stopped putting out a product that was worthy of being the only game in town. The game got worse during the transition from PS2/XBOX to PS3/XBOX360. Not just worse, it was an abomination in HD and Madden has yet to recover.

And dont forget about the crowd and the sidelines, they failed to deliver on that too. Inaccurate passes is another one, another overhyped feature that rarely worked. Foot-planting, took a step back from Madden 25 still not where it needs to be. This is what you get when you pile mechanics on top of a dated incapable engine, which is why I stated, I will not buy Madden again until it's running on a new core engine.

[Mr.Smif]

Re: Madden NFL 16 Features All-New Controls to Dominate Air Supremacy

I honestly feel that either EA Corporate or the developers are afraid to rewrite the code and make it "new" like the FIFA and NHL titles because they might not be able to get it back on par with what they have now. Then we will be back to Madden 06 on 360 again. So they just overlap new features or engines with what they have and pray for the best. Not the best philosophy but it is what it is.

This is why they should have a separate team working on a new engine in the background or used a 3rd party engine. I doubt the people who build the main engine and the people who work on the production version of the game are the same, and if so, thats a big issue.
They knew the engine is broken last gen, they should have started working on a new engine in 2008-2009 getting it ready for this gen, it's EA so you know they have the money, they just didn't want to invest because they didn't have any reason to with no competition.

[illiterateoption]

Re: Madden NFL 16 Features All-New Controls to Dominate Air Supremacy

This is why they should have a separate team working on a new engine in the background or used a 3rd party engine. I doubt the people who build the main engine and the people who work on the production version of the game are the same, and if so, thats a big issue.
They knew the engine is broken last gen, they should have started working on a new engine in 2008-2009 getting it ready for this gen, it's EA so you know they have the money, they just didn't want to invest because they didn't have any reason to with no competition.

Yeah - that wouldve been nice if they started back then. Honestly, I think Madden 25 last gen was an ok game. That said, I feel like thats the game we should've had back in 06...Madden 06 through 13 were just ugly games. What a mess. I really tried with Madden 12 but although it was the best of the bunch, it still wasn't a good video game.

I'll never understand what caused or how EA transitioned from Madden 03, 04, 05, and 06 on the PS2/XBOX (fully featured/ smooth/ user control based/ etc.) to Madden 2006 on the PS3/XBOX360 and thought "yeah, this is where we want next gen football to be."

Man, if only I could count how many times I said, "why couldn't they have just given us Madden 04, 05, 06 in HD?"

[shaunlmason]

Re: Madden NFL 16 Features All-New Controls to Dominate Air Supremacy

Not to mention Rex and co made it a point to preach sim, sim, sim. If that's what they want to put out there, shouldn't realism trump everything? If not just say "Hey, we're making a fun NFL game, it might not be the most realistic we can make it, but we're trying to please everyone."

I just have a problem with them hammering home sim and realism when there are clearly things well within their control that go against that realism direction.

If we are such a small niche, why are they all of a sudden making it a point that they are trying to target us?

I've had this discussion at Tiburon. What I'm usually told (I'm greatly distilling these conversations) is: "We want to be authentic, but where it doesn't make the game tedious." Their oft-cited example is, "You want 100% realistic? Yes? So you want to play 15 minute quarters?"

I'm as big a simulation guy as there is and that's a valid point for the vast majority of gamers.

[SolidSquid]

Re: Madden NFL 16 Features All-New Controls to Dominate Air Supremacy

I've had this discussion at Tiburon. What I'm usually told (I'm greatly distilling these conversations) is: "We want to be authentic, but where it doesn't make the game tedious." Their oft-cited example is, "You want 100% realistic? Yes? So you want to play 15 minute quarters?"

I'm as big a simulation guy as there is and that's a valid point for the vast majority of gamers.

Lol I feel like that a cop out. I want the game to move and animate realistically, I want football fundamentals like penalties, formations, gap fits to be realistic. I want the strategy of offense vs defense to be represented realistically. All that can be achieved without playing 15 minute quarters .

[shaunlmason]

Re: Madden NFL 16 Features All-New Controls to Dominate Air Supremacy

I hear they're still using ANT as their core animation tool and that to me is just criminal if true. We're talking early 2000's tech here in 2015, and even during that time it wasn't great tech compared to its competitors based on the outcomes at least.

Trying to be as gentle as possible here; you understand that code isn't static, right? You are likely using Windows, which by the same argument you gave above is "an almost 30 year tech".

[shaunlmason]

Re: Madden NFL 16 Features All-New Controls to Dominate Air Supremacy

Lol I feel like that a cop out. I want the game to move and animate realistically, I want football fundamentals like penalties, formations, gap fits to be realistic. I want the strategy of offense vs defense to be represented realistically. All that can be achieved without playing 15 minute quarters .

I agree 100%. Penalties, realistic gap assignments, realistic injuries, botched snaps, etc. all all things I want. Just stating that there is a line in the "just make it analogous to the source material" argument.