Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

[DenverBornAndBred]

Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

Hopefully Josh Looman is next...

[jerwoods]

Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

Dan,
Do you know if you'll be able to have any say about the progression system as part of working on the ratings, if you are asked to do so? I'm not sure what the best solution would be, but I would like to see some type of progression system for CFM that is not focused solely around XP.

yeah JP it should have to do with playing time and how good your coach is a deloping players

and i do like XP its just should be more easier to turn a 79 ovr and progress him to a 90 ovr within 3-5 seasons if u use him right

[jerwoods]

Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

I like this, but I think there should be a smaller deviation than what you are suggesting, perhaps only ± 3

that is good for vets but rookies and young players every year sometimes make a huge jump

CJ Anderson at the end of madden 25 was a 67 or a 71 ovr
but at the end of madden 15 was a 85 ovr was that a reuit of playing with manning or his hard work in the off season

[jpdavis82]

Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

Hopefully Josh Looman is next...

Kolbe and John White are in charge of CFM now. I don't think most people will get a good idea of the direction they're headed until next year though. I think a full cycle with them in charge of CFM will make a big difference. Lets not put all the blame on Looman, he delivered HC09 which is what we all would like to see added into CFM.

[DCEBB2001]

Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

Dan,
Do you know if you'll be able to have any say about the progression system as part of working on the ratings, if you are asked to do so? I'm not sure what the best solution would be, but I would like to see some type of progression system for CFM that is not focused solely around XP.

I have so much progression data already built into my model that it would have to at least be discussed. I literally can do an analysis to tell you how much players increase or decrease on the average. I can break it down any way I want to and get the 30,000 foot level or go player-specific, but it just depends on what they want and what they want me to do.

Honestly, most of the change happens at the year-end evals. That is where the steepest changes are seen. Weekly is rare (maybe 100 players at most on a given week and rarely a player has a change two consecutive weeks), and those are never really drastic.

[SolidSquid]

Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

I have so much progression data already built into my model that it would have to at least be discussed. I literally can do an analysis to tell you how much players increase or decrease on the average. I can break it down any way I want to and get the 30,000 foot level or go player-specific, but it just depends on what they want and what they want me to do.

Honestly, most of the change happens at the year-end evals. That is where the steepest changes are seen. Weekly is rare (maybe 100 players at most on a given week and rarely a player has a change two consecutive weeks), and those are never really drastic.

I really hope they hire you lol

[datdoodiemane]

Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Jesus...some of the ratings over the years... I often wondered if he can properly watch football and how much time he spent doing so. There is a reason Odell Beckham Jr.'s Spectacular Catch rating went up so high and it's because Donny Moore didn't have a clue the first time.

Without pro football focus he would be lost. Even with them it doesn't negate the fact that I don't think he understands the athleticism of a 300 pound lineman or NFL players in general besides "OMG sick 1 handed catch #top10 @ESPN"

[Skyboxer]

Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Jesus...some of the ratings over the years... I often wondered if he can properly watch football and how much time he spent doing so. There is a reason Odell Beckham Jr.'s Spectacular Catch rating went up so high and it's because Donny Moore didn't have a clue the first time.

Without pro football focus he would be lost. Even with them it doesn't negate the fact that I don't think he understands the athleticism of a 300 pound lineman or NFL players in general besides "OMG sick 1 handed catch #top10 @ESPN"

Classy.....

And

You're not the first to say this so I'm not singling you out but this is the last time in this thread something like this will be said about Donny.

[kehlis]

Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

And in case anyone was wondering it was not an idle threat.

[bucky60]

Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

I would be more a fan of doing the ratings updates every month instead of every week because you need more time to determine when the changes occur. I said before in some other threads that the grades usually only change when the scouts see enough evidence to change them. That process is a bit more fluid in real life, but it often never changes week to week. The tightest window I see regularly is monthly. Some guys can go an entire season without needing to have a grade change because they are so consistent at whatever level they are playing at. It really is astonishing stuff that should be in the game.

Scouts should only be changing the perception of a players abilities. They should never be changing a players actual abilities.

Player's ability changes -> Scout reevaluates and grades

Scout reevaluation -> Players ability changes -- is backwards.

Scouts should never be changing a players actual abilities (in Madden - Ratings).

[bucky60]

Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

Dan,
Do you know if you'll be able to have any say about the progression system as part of working on the ratings, if you are asked to do so? I'm not sure what the best solution would be, but I would like to see some type of progression system for CFM that is not focused solely around XP.

I'm being completely serious here.

I want to thank you very, very much for asking this question!!!!!!!

An option to a non XP based progression system would be best so those that enjoy the current system don't have it taken away.

[DCEBB2001]

Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

Scouts should only be changing the perception of a players abilities. They should never be changing a players actual abilities.

Player's ability changes -> Scout reevaluates and grades

Scout reevaluation -> Players ability changes -- is backwards.

Scouts should never be changing a players actual abilities (in Madden - Ratings).

This is the whole "if a tree falls in a forest and nobody is around to hear it, does it make a sound?" argument.

The scouting data is the confirmation of a player's ability. Of course the player changes his ability at the time of or just prior to it being recognized (and subsequently recorded), but that is not how the data works in scouting. There is always time passage between the evaluations. I believe you are confusing the scouts actually changing their abilities with my previous statements of the scouts changing the GRADES to mimic observed changes in ability.

Example:

1. On July 1st, a player leaves minicamp and has been given a pass blocking grade of 1.9 by the team scouts.

2. Player works out on his own to improve his pass blocking abilities during his month off between mini-camps and training camp, which for the sake of this example, opens on August 1st.

3. Player actually improves his pass blocking abilities to a level that is greater than the 1.9 grade he received when he left mini-camp on July 1st.

4. The scouts do not yet know he has improved his pass blocking abilities, so there is no evidence yet to support that the player actually has until he is re-evaluated when training camp opens on August 1st.

5. The player arrives to training camp on August 1st and is re-evaluated by the scouting staff. The staff finds during this evaluation that the player has indeed gotten better as a pass blocker during his time off, and there is evidence to support the assumption.

6. The scouting team discusses how much of an improvement he made and assign a new value to his abilities as a pass blocker. In this example, he went from a 1.9 on July 1st, the last time he was evaluated, to a 2.0 on August 1st.

7. The record now shows that the player has a pass blocking ability of 2.0 on August 1st.

8. Training camp continues and the player continues to improve as a pass blocker.

9. The scouting team re-evaluates the player before final cuts on September 1st and finds that there is enough evidence to support that he has improved again.

10. This time, the scouting team finds that although the player has improved his pass blocking abilities, it was not enough of an improvement to warrant a grade that is the next interval up from the 2.0 grade he achieved on August 1st.

11. The scouts agree that since the improvement was not enough to move him up a tenth of a point, they keep his grade at 2.0 until they receive further evidence (likely from a future evaluation) that his pass blocking abilities are now worthy of a 2.1 grade or beyond.


You see, it is all about the observation points. The scouts don't control the abilities, but they do control the grading. It's like taking a test in college. You can tell your calculus professor that you are getting better at calculus, and in fact you may be, but until you are evaluated via a test or assignment, you cannot PROVE that you have indeed improved.

Scouting is about observation and recording much like the sciences. They use trained observation to draw assumptions, then test those assumptions, mostly by evaluating film.

The big thing to take away from all of this is that the scouts will not change a grade for a player until they see evidence to support the change. If the player doesn't exhibit the signs of a change, then the scouts have no reason to change it. Changing grades for the sake of changing grades does them no service. These guys are trying to be as accurate as possible.

What I propose the Madden team does is make in-season player evaluation take place after every 4 games, or a month of competition. During this evaluation, the "scouts" on your team evaluate the performance of players who have improved (played beyond their current rating values) or regressed (playing under their current ratings values) for various position-specific attributes. Think of it like how back in the Madden 05 days, when you had a WR that was an 80 overall and after a few games of catching passes and TDs, the player progression would update his ratings to match his performance and bump him up to an 83 or something based on him out-playing his older ratings.

That time between player progression periods in the game would be the same things as the time between evaluations in the scouting world.

[Gman 18]

Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

I have so much progression data already built into my model that it would have to at least be discussed. I literally can do an analysis to tell you how much players increase or decrease on the average. I can break it down any way I want to and get the 30,000 foot level or go player-specific, but it just depends on what they want and what they want me to do.

Honestly, most of the change happens at the year-end evals. That is where the steepest changes are seen. Weekly is rare (maybe 100 players at most on a given week and rarely a player has a change two consecutive weeks), and those are never really drastic.

It would be a breath of fresh air to have someone who uses actual PLAYER DATA to determine player progression/regression in CFM. Progression determined by XP is certainly not the way to go and I hope Dan's suggestions make EA think otherwise and hopefully they decide to implement his ideas


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Skyflame21]

Not sure that this isn't a positive move for the game. Unless they get someone even worse. Rating players is a huge undertaking and obviously not an easy task to do. However over the years it seems ratings for players were based on the ESPN and fan hype and less about their actual on-field abilities. Sometimes tough live is needed to players all can't be great. I wish him all the best on his new endeavors.

[bucky60]

Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

This is the whole "if a tree falls in a forest and nobody is around to hear it, does it make a sound?" argument.

The scouting data is the confirmation of a player's ability. Of course the player changes his ability at the time of or just prior to it being recognized (and subsequently recorded), but that is not how the data works in scouting. There is always time passage between the evaluations. I believe you are confusing the scouts actually changing their abilities with my previous statements of the scouts changing the GRADES to mimic observed changes in ability.

With progression In Madden, what observed changes in ability are you talking about that the scouts see? Stats? Stats should never drive progression for a realistic progression model. Allowing a scouting dept in madden to drive progression is unrealistic. Other factors should be determining progression/regression. Realistic factors. Scouts should ONLY be evaluating a players perceived abilities.

I think your progression system confuses re-rating with progression. When you are defining a roster for a Madden release, I agree with your method. But not for progressing players. It's unrealistic to use stats for progression. It's unrealistic to use scouting evals for progression.