Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

[DCEBB2001]

Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

I think you had a leg to stand on until you flat out admit you didn't expect him to answer - which by your own admission is grandstanding, as you did not intend to 'enter into a constructive debate' - your words. You're bypassing the dialog you try and claim to have and instead openly discrediting which is putting it nicely.

Qualifications to do a job are not a dialog on ratings. It goes right up there with all of the 'developers suck'-style premises that go into so many posts and are the least bit constructive because they bypass criticism of the game and instead make it personal.

I don't expect anything on here, but I will still ask the questions hoping for a debate. The last time I tried, it was met with static, hence why there are not any expectations. I welcome a constructive debate more than anything, but it takes two to do that. Thus, it just looks like I am asking for the sake of asking despite my line of questioning having merit. I think that the disclosure of qualifications is a good way to start. I guess my style is just different from what you would like, which is OK too.

[RogueHominid]

Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

I totally agree, and that is one caveat that I have made very clear with the brass at EA - in order for these things to work correctly, we have to be able to have some say on how they are implemented in the game itself. All of it is moot unless we are used to let the ratings drive the game. It's all just window-dressing until that happens.

In my honest opinion, I think that we may be closer to a day when EA has a real competitor in the NFL video game arena, and I am prepared for that possibility as well. If it were up to me, I would blow the whole thing up, make the game be data driven, and have the animations follow that data. It would require a reboot and real physics, however, which is likely going to be too costly for EA to see as a real option.

You don't have to tell me that simply changing the ratings will fix everything. We already know the limitations of the project, hence why we are always pursuing other vendors. I am considering this effort this year to be the last ditch effort in getting this data into the game. If it doesn't work now, after getting something tangible into the right hands at EA, it won't ever happen. We know this, and are prepared to seek other opportunities outside of the football gaming world; more in-line with our sister site, NFLDraftScout.com.

Frankly, that's good to hear; I hadn't heard you say that before.

I've read lots of your posts, but not all of them, so it wasn't clear to me that this was your position.

If it is, I'm totally behind them investing in you, though I get from a business standpoint why they might be reticent to do so as you're the proprietor of your data and system, not them. So my sense is they'd have to buy not only the data, but also the methodology of interpreting the data and interpolating it into the game, which could be expensive.

I'm not for anyone losing his or her job, as these are generally tough times, but I am for Mdden doing a better job with ratings and I'm for Madden doing a better job of making the ratings and game play they deliver as close to an authentic NFL experience as possible.

[roadman]

Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

That's true, and he can choose to answer if he wishes. I just don't think that it is beyond anyone to ask questions, respectfully, in this forum of the devs. What I don't like is when they are met with disrespect back, as if asking in itself was disrespectful.

Wouldn't be the first time, that's for sure:

http://www.operationsports.com/forum...updates-5.html

I don't have any issues you asking questions professionally and respectfully, if it's done in a tactful manner without it becoming more about you than the person at EA you are addressing.

That's the way it came across to me and I can tell I'm not the only one that felt the same way.

Sorry, that's the vibe I get and appears many others received it the same way I did.

If you disagree, great, no problem, agree to disagree.

[DCEBB2001]

Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

Frankly, that's good to hear; I hadn't heard you say that before.

I've read lots of your posts, but not all of them, so it wasn't clear to me that this was your position.

If it is, I'm totally behind them investing in you, though I get from a business standpoint why they might be reticent to do so as you're the proprietor of your data and system, not them. So my sense is they'd have to buy not only the data, but also the methodology of interpreting the data and interpolating it into the game, which could be expensive.

I'm not for anyone losing his or her job, as these are generally tough times, but I am for Mdden doing a better job with ratings and I'm for Madden doing a better job of making the ratings and game play they deliver as close to an authentic NFL experience as possible.

I can't give up any of the source data that I have as I am bound by NDAs. The guys at EA are well aware of that. However, what I can do is interpolate that data into a different system. That interpolated data and I, however, are a package deal. I can't sell the source material, but I can sell the interpolated ratings. Rex Dickson knows that if I get involved it will likely have to be as an outsourced 3rd party and not as a full-time employee of EA/Tiburon.

Basically, if you see the direction the site is going in, we will provide all of the data for everything player-profile-based. That covers info, equipment, appearance, ratings, traits, contracts, etc. Once we get all of the data in place and my new webmaster cleans some stuff up, it should be a one-stop-shop for everything you need to not only edit a player, but create one from scratch in Madden. That is the present goal.

[DCEBB2001]

Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

I don't have any issues you asking questions professionally and respectfully, if it's done in a tactful manner without it becoming more about you than the person at EA you are addressing.

That's the way it came across to me and I can tell I'm not the only one that felt the same way.

Sorry, that's the vibe I get and appears many others received it the same way I did.

If you disagree, great, no problem, agree to disagree.

I think that it should come down to giving someone the benefit of the doubt. So much is lost in translation on a message board that I myself often have to do that. I take a step back and ask myself what the person is really attempting to convey.

To quote him, he said, "I go off tape and PFF..... hard to have any opinion in it really."

OK, so now the first thing that comes to mind when I see that is there are a million ways to analyze tape, and not all of them are equal. Some ARE better than others, and I know that from PERSONAL experience. I want to know if he has any formal training that would alleviate any uneasiness I may have about him possibly doing it incorrectly or without formal training from a professional. Then, I want to know where/who he learned it from. Who knows? Maybe we know some of the same people in the business!

It's really that simple. However, I even took it a step further to exemplify what I have personally done to illustrate that you can have humble beginnings in a career of scouting (like as a HS football coach or working for a 3rd party website) knowing full well that what matters is where you finish and not where you start. That was not an attempt to toot my own horn, but rather, an attempt to open up a bit in the hopes that he too would open up and be a bit more transparent; something EA devs have lacked often around here.

To me, if someone is going to cite their use of film study, I want to know if they know how to properly use it. That's just me though because of my background in that world. It isn't easy. In fact, it sucks. Little pay for lots of work. I also understand that likely, nobody else cares about my inquiry or his background, and that's fine. However, nothing I said in there was a violation of the TOS from what I understand, so it seems as though I am getting beaten up over simply asking a question and framing it because people misunderstood where I am coming from.

The bottom line is that before anyone jumps on anyone we all need to do a better job of giving each other the benefit of the doubt.

[roadman]

Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

I think that it should come down to giving someone the benefit of the doubt. So much is lost in translation on a message board that I myself often have to do that. I take a step back and ask myself what the person is really attempting to convey.

To quote him, he said, "I go off tape and PFF..... hard to have any opinion in it really."

OK, so now the first thing that comes to mind when I see that is there are a million ways to analyze tape, and not all of them are equal. Some ARE better than others, and I know that from PERSONAL experience. I want to know if he has any formal training that would alleviate any uneasiness I may have about him possibly doing it incorrectly or without formal training from a professional. Then, I want to know where/who he learned it from. Who knows? Maybe we know some of the same people in the business!

It's really that simple. However, I even took it a step further to exemplify what I have personally done to illustrate that you can have humble beginnings in a career of scouting (like as a HS football coach or working for a 3rd party website) knowing full well that what matters is where you finish and not where you start. That was not an attempt to toot my own horn, but rather, an attempt to open up a bit in the hopes that he too would open up and be a bit more transparent; something EA devs have lacked often around here.

To me, if someone is going to cite their use of film study, I want to know if they know how to properly use it. That's just me though because of my background in that world. It isn't easy. In fact, it sucks. Little pay for lots of work. I also understand that likely, nobody else cares about my inquiry or his background, and that's fine. However, nothing I said in there was a violation of the TOS from what I understand, so it seems as though I am getting beaten up over simply asking a question and framing it because people misunderstood where I am coming from.

The bottom line is that before anyone jumps on anyone we all need to do a better job of giving each other the benefit of the doubt.

I didn't say there was a violation of the TOS. And please, don't look at as though people are "jumping on you", take it as friendly advice and suggestions. I doubt anyone will change your mind.

I'm all for Madden becoming a realistic NFL experience and if that includes using your ratings, that's fine by me.

I feel that is a decision that EA will make inside their offices, not to be debated here at OS.

I just don't find it appropriate and professional for asking someone to provide their qualifications on a private forum. I feel that should have been addressed in a PM and or EA to go through the decision making process in Orlando.

I've been in the professional employment field a long time and find it personally inappropriate to ask for qualifications in this arena. Once the poster said tape and PFF....if I had your experience, I would have used the PM system.

That's all I'll say on the matter.

[SECElit3]

Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

Cam Newton stats today: 17/34 with less than 150 passing... What is he rated again in Madden?


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[jb12780]

Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

Cam Newton stats today: 17/34 with less than 150 passing... What is he rated again in Madden?


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To be fair he's had a pretty good season. 40 total TD's isn't bad.

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[kehlis]

Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

Cam Newton stats today: 17/34 with less than 150 passing... What is he rated again in Madden?


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Playing Monday morning quarterback is always a lot of fun.

[SECElit3]

Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

Playing Monday morning quarterback is always a lot of fun.

And... Here we see a great example of why we will never see realistic ratings in Madden. Cam Newton is not a Hall of Fame quarterback and shouldn't be rated as one


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[mestevo]

Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

And... Here we see a great example of why we will never see realistic ratings in Madden. Cam Newton is not a Hall of Fame quarterback and shouldn't be rated as one


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Depends on how the ratings work/what they represent. They're a snapshot in time for the most part but aren't a lifetime portrait of their ability.

Most outside of physical characteristics should ebb and flow with coaching, injuries and opportunity.

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[roadman]

Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

And... Here we see a great example of why we will never see realistic ratings in Madden. Cam Newton is not a Hall of Fame quarterback and shouldn't be rated as one


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He is this year and he in the MVP discussion.

[Gman 18]

Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

Depends on how the ratings work/what they represent. They're a snapshot in time for the most part but aren't a lifetime portrait of their ability.

Most outside of physical characteristics should ebb and flow with coaching, injuries and opportunity.

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A player's individual ratings carry far more weigh than their overall rating. The way madden's ratings system is set up, some ratings that don't mean as much when it comes to gameplay or aren't represented very realistically, such as awareness or play recognition, take on more of an impact when forming a player's overall rating.

Speed has almost always been the most/one of the most crucial attributes for skills players, no matter what the rest of that players ratings were. I remember how dominant Brandon Banks was in madden 12 and 13 based purely on his speed rating. The guy occasionally flat out dropped the ball, but pretty much 90% of the time, his speed made him dominant. So when it comes to ratings in madden, it is best to critique a players individual rating first before the overall ratings. That being said, I believe most players attributes are overrated in the game, but people spend too much time complaining about a mostly meaningless overall rating as opposed to individual ratings.


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[Millennium]

Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

So much absolutely disrespect for fellow posters and devs thrown around in here. I'm truly sickened that some of you trot around this community as long time users and expect yourselves to be treated like idols, then when a dev comes in here you fire back with undertones of "Better than thou".

This close to banning the entire lot of you, so tread lightly.

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[DCEBB2001]

Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

A player's individual ratings carry far more weigh than their overall rating. The way madden's ratings system is set up, some ratings that don't mean as much when it comes to gameplay or aren't represented very realistically, such as awareness or play recognition, take on more of an impact when forming a player's overall rating.

Speed has almost always been the most/one of the most crucial attributes for skills players, no matter what the rest of that players ratings were. I remember how dominant Brandon Banks was in madden 12 and 13 based purely on his speed rating. The guy occasionally flat out dropped the ball, but pretty much 90% of the time, his speed made him dominant. So when it comes to ratings in madden, it is best to critique a players individual rating first before the overall ratings. That being said, I believe most players attributes are overrated in the game, but people spend too much time complaining about a mostly meaningless overall rating as opposed to individual ratings.

Also bear in mind that the OVR ratings are a positive correlated function of the attribute values. As in, if the OVR ratings are very high, the attributes that lead to that overall are also very high.

What EA really needs to do is pull in some historical empirical data to see EXACTLY where these attributes fall on a scale of say a full generation (20 years) or so. The big problem is that they are constantly setting the best every individual year equal to 99. It makes it impossible to differentiate between players from year to year and see how good, or weak, certain players are.

Physical attributes are a good place to start. Take the highest maximum velocity recorded in the past 20 years and set that to 99. Take the lowest and set it to 1. Use linear regression and 'viola', you have a realistic equal interval distribution of the SPD rating. Then, you can see how fast these players really are compared to a larger, more complete, population. Data distributions seemed to be completely ignored.

If you have a standardized set of historical data that can encompass such a timeline, you can see how good these players really are or aren't based upon that distribution.

The example of Cam Newton was brought up so let's use him as an example. The scouting data that I have goes back to 1996, so I basically have 20 seasons worth of scouting data to rely on. On that scale, Newton currently grades in at an 7.51 OVR grade. That's pretty darn good. To put that into context, only 14 QBs have had a grade that high or higher since 1996:

Peyton Manning (2000) 10.00
Tom Brady (2008) 10.00
Brett Favre (2001) 9.99
Aaron Rodgers (2011) 9.99
Kurt Warner (2001) 9.33
Drew Bledsoe (2000) 8.95
Drew Brees (2011) 8.66
Rich Gannon (2003) 8.22
Philip Rivers (2010) 8.21
Eli Manning (2009) 8.10
Donovan McNabb (2003) 8.02
Jeff Garcia (2002) 7.95
Mark Brunell (2000) 7.82
Steve McNair (2003) 7.76
Daunte Culpepper (2004) 7.50

There is no doubt, that this year he is performing among the best in the NFL at his position. However, when you place him on a historical scale per the scouts, it wouldn't even be top 100 in the last 20 years (the guys above have their best season listed, not including the multiple times they were above 7.51 in other seasons).

Once again, I think EA needs to pull from a more broad context instead of just one year at a time so we can really see how these players rate compared to the all-time greats of this generation. That in itself would help alleviate the issue of over-inflation of the attributes, and consequently, the OVR ratings.

You can't have high OVRs without high attributes. Both need to be rectified.