Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

[Danimal]

Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

Hold on guys.

When I said 'competitive balance' I am referring to overall game balance. User vs. User and User vs. CPU. When we have tried these types of ratings changes in the past, it would negatively impact that balance to the degree that I was not comfortable moving forward with it for the good of the game.

Competitive balance (overall game balance and playability) is inseparable from generating authentic outcomes. The two go hand in hand.

When I referred to 'community sourced' ratings, that could mean anything. It started out with us reaching out to the most respected and well known ratings sites out there. Don't automatically assume this will turn into a PR driven 'cover vote' style thing, that is not our intent. We want to figure out the best way to involve and utilize the community moving forward in generating a ratings system that represents the best thing for the game.

Finally I want to mention that Donny Moore shared this vision of fewer elites and greater ratings spread. It is a shared goal we are actively working towards.

Thanks for the information and this is a great example of listening to all the information before jumping to conclusions.

[DCEBB2001]

Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

That article was complete Horse Hockey! I took every one of their "weights" and threw them into a formula and compared them to mine and they are WAY OFF. As in, off by like 5 points in some instances. See for yourself!

To illustrate this I will throw in an example. These are the ratings directly from the M15 ratings spreadsheet from last summer using those OVR rating multipliers from that article:

QB Dennis Dixon is an example.

According to the ratings sheet, he is a 68 OVR. Here are his attributes and their multipliers (according to the article) that are added together to get to his OVR. All of the multipliers add up to 100%.

AWR: 60 (.20) = 12
THP: 84 (.20) = 16.8
SAC: 68 (.15) = 10.2
MAC: 72 (.15) = 10.8
DAC: 69 (.10) = 6.9
PAC: 62 (.08) = 4.96
RUN: 80 (.03) = 2.4
SPD: 84 (.05) = 4.2
AGI: 86 (.03) = 2.58
ACC: 85 (.01) = .85

When you add those up you get a total of 71.69. OK, that's fine. We know that if we subtract exactly 2.70, you get 68.99 which would mean he is still a 68 overall because the 68 point threshold hasn't yet been broken. So 2.70 is our minimal subtracting value while 3.69 is the most we can subtract to get a 68 overall.

So let's do another player and use the same multipliers.

Aaron Rodgers is a 98 OVR. Here are his attribute values:

AWR: 93 (.20) = 18.6
THP: 94 (.20) = 18.8
SAC: 92 (.15) = 13.8
MAC: 88 (.15) = 13.2
DAC: 90 (.10) = 9.0
PAC: 87 (.08) = 6.96
RUN: 88 (.03) = 2.64
SPD: 80 (.05) = 4.0
AGI: 83 (.03) = 2.49
ACC: 85 (.01) = .85

Add these all up and you get 90.34. Throw in the subtracting values and you get an overall between 87 and 86, even though he is listed as a 98 in the game.

Fortunately for me, I broke the OVR code and found the real values for each attribute and the real subtracting value for each position, which allows me to be a lot closer to the real overall compared to what that article suggests.

Without giving this away, I can tell you that the real subtracting value for QBs is more like 48.28 points and the real multiples for AWR and THP are closer to 0.33 than they are to 0.20. When I throw Rodgers' values into my equation, I get an OVR of 98.64 (rounded down to a 98 of course). Doing the same for Dixon gets me an OVR of 68.19 (rounded down to a 68).

So you tell me...who is more accurate here?

[khaliib]

Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

Hold on guys.

When I said 'competitive balance' I am referring to overall game balance. User vs. User and User vs. CPU. When we have tried these types of ratings changes in the past, it would negatively impact that balance to the degree that I was not comfortable moving forward with it for the good of the game.

Competitive balance (overall game balance and playability) is inseparable from generating authentic outcomes. The two go hand in hand.

When I referred to 'community sourced' ratings, that could mean anything. It started out with us reaching out to the most respected and well known ratings sites out there. Don't automatically assume this will turn into a PR driven 'cover vote' style thing, that is not our intent. We want to figure out the best way to involve and utilize the community moving forward in generating a ratings system that represents the best thing for the game.

Finally I want to mention that Donny Moore shared this vision of fewer elites and greater ratings spread. It is a shared goal we are actively working towards.

I agree 100% and I already have that formula for the new OVRs....just need to put it in the game. The funny thing is that a guy like Aaron Rodgers will have the same grades but his overall grade is like 9.42, which is basically a 94 in Madden. The only difference is that the darn OVR calculator in Madden is wrong and doesn't match the data source. If I could use my data with my data's OVR grade calculation, things would be fine. We can still use the 0-100 overall, but I still believe that going from 0.0 to 5.0 for all attributes and 0-10.0 for all overall scores is the best way to go because that is how the scouts in this department do it. Why deviate from a REAL system???

The current structure of the game is set to allow the best of both worlds.

Having a "Think Tank" moment, I started this thread How to make players differ within current Ratings System to brainstorm a thought to do just this.

Instead of the current Rookie/Pro/All-Pro/All-Madden difficulty levels, the competiveness of the game would combine both concepts/thoughts in this manner...

Using the 2nd picture, the foundation of what you guys want Rex would be done so that the "Sphere of Influence" per player is done (rings expanded/exaggerated) so that the "pick-up-and-play" idea/concept is there.

As the gamer wants to wants to move into a more difficult style of play, the Sphere's are reduced closer to "Sim Style" in a manner DC uses.

The core of this idea/concept is already being used in the game.
It's just expanding it to all ratings utilized for a particular position.

Making the game "competitive" while having players "animate/maneuver/react" during gameplay can be accomplished utilizing this idea I believe.

Especially with QB play, where the beginning of gameplay issues start because the gamer negates AWR/Accuracy ratings and the ratings system, in its current structure, has been unable to address with global weight tweeting.

So the gamer in this instance, can continue to utilize the current QB Accuracy method where the ball is thrown directly to the receiver, then transition to throwing to "sphere's/zones" where accuracy is dictated/broken down to a level that DC's methodology utilizes.

This can be done for all positional ratings and help bring forth player differentiation during gameplay.

Just thinking out loud, but take a look.

[playajay98]

Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

I was told by one of the GC's that when Rex mentions competitive gameplay being the priority, he's referring to user vs CPU.

One of the first things I do when I start playing a new Madden is tweak the sliders so that the CPU should beat me (without cheese) when I have a bad team. This is still NFL football, not college so each team should be able to win any given Sunday but I am looking for that challenge... to have to play mistake free football as the Jags and play to my teams strengths to have a chance to beat a playoff team. Tuning things to be competitive against the CPU to me shouldn't be a different goal than realism because most real NFL games come down to a few plays..talent usually prevails but playing smart and having a solid game plan will get anyone a win. THAT is realism and NFL level competition to me.

[playajay98]

Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

Yeah this is my concern too, I can see it now "QB Tom Brady is a 84 in Madden 16, 2nd highest rated QB" and then Pats fans go ballistic because they think he should be a 98 or 99. That's my biggest fear with the way they may react to your ratings, but that is the reality of it, they've been trained to see ratings a certain way and using your ratings may "break the game" to them.

I'll be totally honest, FBG ratings sounds great and I didn't know about them until yesterday so I went to his site and saw Broncos CB Chris Harris Jr., #1 CB rated by Pro Football Focus rated by Dan a 74...I too was outraged! Here I am, a SIM football gamer, calling for at least a B grade for the best corner last year. It requires trust though and I am willing to try them out. Good Luck, Dan. I think when people have a chance to play using your ratings and see the difference, we will all be better for it.

[DCEBB2001]

Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

I'll be totally honest, FBG ratings sounds great and I didn't know about them until yesterday so I went to his site and saw Broncos CB Chris Harris Jr., #1 CB rated by Pro Football Focus rated by Dan a 74...I too was outraged! Here I am, a SIM football gamer, calling for at least a B grade for the best corner last year. It requires trust though and I am willing to try them out. Good Luck, Dan. I think when people have a chance to play using your ratings and see the difference, we will all be better for it.

Personally, I hate PFF. They only look at the outcome of each play. They even say it in their FAQ on how they grade players. They won't tell you the specific traits that comprise a player. PFF is good for looking at tendencies, but not for rating football players. PFF also had Brad Jones as an up and coming star in 2013 and look what happened there. GB threw a big contract at him and he was awful. We had him at a 5.6, nowhere near budding-star material.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2013/05/24/secret-superstar-brad-jones/

According to my data, Harris is the 15th best CB in the league. That's pretty darn good. So whereas a 74 OVR would make him the 15th best CB according to my data, the 15th best CB according to EA would be rated an 87. A 74 OVR CB in Madden would mean he is the 94th best CB. That should speak to the blatant over-inflation in this game now.

[wpgjets23]

Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

I'm curious how the FBG rated roster is affected by the draft classes?

[bloobloouk]

Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

I'm curious how the FBG rated roster is affected by the draft classes?

I gather that CFM is unplayable at present with the current FBG rosters as the draft classes are overpowered. Of course this would no longer be an issue if they were the default and the draft class generation system was updated to reflect that.

This is only reason I haven't played with FBG's rosters - I'm a CFM player and they currently don't fit.

[wpgjets23]

Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

I gather that CFM is unplayable at present with the current FBG rosters as the draft classes are overpowered. Of course this would no longer be an issue if they were the default and the draft class generation system was updated to reflect that.

This is only reason I haven't played with FBG's rosters - I'm a CFM player and they currently don't fit.

Thank you. I was thinking that might be the case, so I'll continue to play NCAA 14.

[JO122194]

Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

Great News! Donny has wayyyy to many 90s in there. I'm a fan of the ratings of FIFA and 2k where the majority of great players are 80s with only a few elite players getting low 90's. I think issues with gameplay have been a result because of this and hopefully they move to a better rating system. Probably wouldn't happen this year tho

[crenk]

Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

It sucks that something like this is based on such a "wow" factor when it comes to the casual audience. "Aaron Rodgers is a 90?!?!?!?!? What do you mean a 90?" It wouldn't matter if 90 was the best QB in the game, he still wouldn't be seen as rated highly enough and I think that's something they need to try and get out of peoples minds. There has come this stigma with 99 and breakout players that I wish they could break but I just don't see it happening.

I think getting rid of the overall would definitely be a positive move. Especially considering there's now a playercard that gives you most of the important attributes. It would force people to know or at least focus more on the player rather than some arbitrary number that really doesn't mean a whole lot. Whether you get rid of it altogether or change it to something like a bar from MVP Baseball, something needs to be done and it seems like they're at least somewhat aware of it but don't really have a plan as of yet.

Yes, the 99 should be reserved for that once in a generation player that is "the best of all time". If you were to play a 30 year franchise you would see maybe 10 players reach a 99. The way it is now if you load up current rosters you will probably see dozens today, over a 30 year franchise probably 100's of 99's. I am a huge pats fan and love Brady. I think he is an all time great but im not sure I would rank him at a 99 at any point in his career. If I did it would for a year or two stretch.

Thats another issue once a 99 rating is achieved it should be short lived. That should be the absolute peak of a once in a generation player. Most of their career should be spent in low to mid 90's with a peak rating of 99 and then back down to mid low 90's. Using Brady as the example. It would be the Moss, almost perfect season. That was the greatest season I have ever witnessed by a quarterback, brady was as perfect as a QB can get, but it was short lived. That was his peak year, his 99, but you cant sustain that level for long.

In Madden once somebody like JJ Watt or Tom Brady or whoever hits a 99 Rating they stay there, for years and years and years of a franchise which is to me unrealistic.

[crenk]

Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

This was pretty much what I was thinking as well. Although my other thought would be the simplest of simple solutions which is to have both ratings (Madden Classic Ratings and FBG Ratings/"Stretched Ratings") in the game; and when you load up a roster/CFM you get to choose which ratings system that you want to go with.

That would appease each side... The side that wants to play with the over inflated ratings and the stretched ratings side.

Or even simpler, let us edit mid CFM, EA has to do nothing in terms of ratings and they dont even need to pay Dan, which if I read his words right, is not really his motivation on this anyway, so I mean no offense. He wants what is best for the sim gamer.
So EA has an easy solution to keep the tourney/cheesers happy with the out of the box jacked ratings and gives sim players the ability to have the community make the sim ratings with little outlay of resources on their part.

Seems like such a no brainer EA, COME ON

[redsox4evur]

Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

Yes, the 99 should be reserved for that once in a generation player that is "the best of all time". If you were to play a 30 year franchise you would see maybe 10 players reach a 99. The way it is now if you load up current rosters you will probably see dozens today, over a 30 year franchise probably 100's of 99's. I am a huge pats fan and love Brady. I think he is an all time great but im not sure I would rank him at a 99 at any point in his career. If I did it would for a year or two stretch.

Thats another issue once a 99 rating is achieved it should be short lived. That should be the absolute peak of a once in a generation player. Most of their career should be spent in low to mid 90's with a peak rating of 99 and then back down to mid low 90's. Using Brady as the example. It would be the Moss, almost perfect season. That was the greatest season I have ever witnessed by a quarterback, brady was as perfect as a QB can get, but it was short lived. That was his peak year, his 99, but you cant sustain that level for long.

In Madden once somebody like JJ Watt or Tom Brady or whoever hits a 99 Rating they stay there, for years and years and years of a franchise which is to me unrealistic.

There is one year I would rate Brady a 99 on a starting roster 2008. He had the great 2007 season. Led the team to the most wins in a season and postseason combined. Perfect record in the regular season. He had 4806 yards and an NFL record (at the time) 50 TD's.

[jeremym480]

Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

Or even simpler, let us edit mid CFM, EA has to do nothing in terms of ratings and they dont even need to pay Dan, which if I read his words right, is not really his motivation on this anyway, so I mean no offense. He wants what is best for the sim gamer.
So EA has an easy solution to keep the tourney/cheesers happy with the out of the box jacked ratings and gives sim players the ability to have the community make the sim ratings with little outlay of resources on their part.

Seems like such a no brainer EA, COME ON

I'm a huge proponent of editing... I want the ability edit everything mid-CFM Attributes, Names, Equipment, Playbooks, even coaches... everything! With that said, we need ratings to be in-line across the board throughout the life of CFM. I know you could download Dan's roster, but I certainly don't want to spend hours upon hours editing rookies each season.

A couple of potential solutions to this:
a) draft class share
b) something similar to this idea

Spoiler

IT would be perfect if the program could just take the ratings of the current roster used in CFM, for example and then auto generate new players within the averages of the players currently being used in game...Then anyone could create any set of player rating values and any auto generated players would match up...

c) give us a web-based roster editor similar to NCAA's Team Builder so you can edit faster
d) All of the above

[crenk]

Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

I'm a huge proponent of editing... I want the ability edit everything mid-CFM Attributes, Names, Equipment, Playbooks, even coaches... everything! With that said, we need ratings to be in-line across the board throughout the life of CFM. I know you could download Dan's roster, but I certainly don't want to spend hours upon hours editing rookies each season.

A couple of potential solutions to this:
a) draft class share
b) something similar to this idea
c) give us a web-based roster editor similar to NCAA's Team Builder so you can edit faster
d) All of the above

I would love any of those options, doing the draft editing myself is not ideal but I would do it if I had to...