Drag Routes Always Open?

[Phobia]

Re: Drag Routes Always Open?

^agreed. and i'd argue shading isnt in the game unless the defender gets visibly on the correct shoulder. watch aquib talib on this Flacco thrown from sunday...this is what shading inside looks like.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRrzOymDgxI

This happens now, granted not to the extent some of you are wanting. I think the amount you will see this will correspond with how often you will see it to perfection in a real game such as this example. There is a video I believe in the madden highlight thread which looks really close to this. I should also point out that is really close to being holding on the defense since the contact was pushing the 5 yard margin. Madden their "contact" animations I believe are set to not extend past from what it seems.

Compare the above listed videos to Maddens and it appears very similar. The example you posted Kush, is more on the rare side of the interactions.
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/dFnOEfG1tGE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

If anything I think reaction times need more improving than the shading short comings.

[4thQtrStre5S]

Re: Drag Routes Always Open?

So I watched these games in full.
Steelers vs Patriots
Dolphins vs Redskins
Cardinals vs Saints
Giants vs Cowboys

I've also seen all the highlights for all the other games and I don't ever remember seeing where this "inside shade" takes away timing routes or where a particular shade direction "prevents" a open release. We are talking two physical athletes fighting for position. Its not a simple, oh I shade this way and boom no more going that direction. This is just silly talk.

I'll show several examples just from this week. Show me examples of this so called "preventing" shade which stops all these routes you and Find_the_Door want. I've gone through all highlights from what I see mimics very close to what madden is bringing to the table.

Like I said several times in this thread, I don't think it is perfect and could use SMALL tweaking in favor of the defense but not to the extent some are painting the picture of it being useless & broken.


Might want to tell the almighty his engine is not realistic. Inside shade, no press, and just burnt.
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-h...-his-second-TD

Simple fade route, what about the contact and coverage looks different than what madden is doing?
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-cant-m...e-has-Hop-kins

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-h...-for-1-yard-TD

This is a good one because everyone talks about WR's being open 5 to 8 yards. Press coverage, terrible press, no different than madden, then look at the space upon reception.
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-h...-the-3-yard-TD

Outside shade and the WR just runs right through it for the easy TD
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-h...-for-4-yard-TD

Simple slant creating tons of space
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-h...r-a-21-yard-TD

Short out, killing the DB
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-h...t-of-his-shoes

GREAT examples...Same thing as last night with the Cowboys last drive...You have Bryant out and Witten left as the play maker, and you are facing the Cowboys in scoring position..Even I knew who was going to score...But could the Giants cover Witten? We know what happened...

[ChaseB]

Re: Drag Routes Always Open?

GREAT examples...Same thing as last night with the Cowboys last drive...You have Bryant out and Witten left as the play maker, and you are facing the Cowboys in scoring position..Even I knew who was going to score...But could the Giants cover Witten? We know what happened...

Just to be clear, again I think a lot of people agree with Phobia (and Phobia you're doing baller work with the examples). It just again comes back to balance and a couple general tweaks.

If you keep running the same Concept/play over and over and the other team figures/schemes it out -- there should still be consequences as this is a video game. Now I'm not saying in real life maybe this isn't the case and no matter what sometimes you can't stop player or play X. But this is a video game, and the "impossible to stop" probably shouldn't exist if you plan it out enough times or see something enough times (for example, going back to that Talib play, Talib said in his post-game presser that he knew that was a Ravens money play and he sat on it).

So it's not that you should inside shade and auto-stop slants, but you balance the quantity of attempts with the... (next point below)

The skill of the player. I would say that there's not a lot of true jamming on the inside shade (which I think is your general point when you talk about reaction times Phobia). Beyond that, that Talib example is close to the one you showed Phobia but that's rather rare in Madden. Talib is next level and should be able to do that more consistently, especially if you shade inside.

Using the James Jones Packers example though, Ball got worked over by everyone yesterday so this is better to see. Ball wasn't playing well and got taken inside even with the shade. Of course sometimes it's worth noting guys are allowed to go inside because another player is supposed to be there but that's not really the point here.

[Phobia]

Re: Drag Routes Always Open?

Well said Chase, my general consensus is not that play calling shouldn't matter because obviously its a large role but player ability plays a huge role in all these encounters. Which is what I think some are losing, just because you call the perfect counter to a play doesn't mean it will end that way, player vs player still exists and that is what makes this game(football) so beautiful. I don't want to see player "ability/ratings" taken away just because a person calls the "perfect adjustment". I think the general encounter could use some tweaking in favor of the defense but its not broken. I've run play after play in practice mode and you get a mixture of the DB playing it perfectly to getting flat burnt. Its a dice roll of sorts and exists in real life. Look at Sherman getting smoked this weekend, at the end of the day its player vs player and it can go either way.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-cant-m...Steady-Stedman

[brgisme]

Re: Drag Routes Always Open?

played a guy online with GB (as usual, I was philly) this weekend. I beat him 24-3 but he completed waaay too many vertical passes into double coverage (cover 2 man)

he also ran play-action 10-15 times. on most of them I committed my defense to the pass and had my DEs edge rush...every time I had someone running free he tackled the HB. EVERY TIME. This can't happen.

gameplay has to be better than this.

I'd check your guys. Play recognition to be honest. A lot of DL men are used for athleticism and play rec isn't there, wouldn't pick up that it's play action hence its hitting the RB, also goes off the QBs PA skill.

[DreSki]

Re: Drag Routes Always Open?

Like the two guys above me said, I'd def be ok with my guys getting beat even at the same rate they are now if they could cut down the wide open space receivers have. Every corner route should not generate an automatic 5 yards of separation. I play a lot with the Bucs and Lavonte David one of if not the fastest weak side lbs (another thing we need) in the NFL cannot even run with scrub tight ends.

So I watched these games in full.
Steelers vs Patriots
Dolphins vs Redskins
Cardinals vs Saints
Giants vs Cowboys

I've also seen all the highlights for all the other games and I don't ever remember seeing where this "inside shade" takes away timing routes or where a particular shade direction "prevents" a open release. We are talking two physical athletes fighting for position. Its not a simple, oh I shade this way and boom no more going that direction. This is just silly talk.

I'll show several examples just from this week. Show me examples of this so called "preventing" shade which stops all these routes you and Find_the_Door want. I've gone through all highlights from what I see mimics very close to what madden is bringing to the table.

Like I said several times in this thread, I don't think it is perfect and could use SMALL tweaking in favor of the defense but not to the extent some are painting the picture of it being useless & broken.


Might want to tell the almighty his engine is not realistic. Inside shade, no press, and just burnt.
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-h...-his-second-TD

Simple fade route, what about the contact and coverage looks different than what madden is doing?
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-cant-m...e-has-Hop-kins

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-h...-for-1-yard-TD

This is a good one because everyone talks about WR's being open 5 to 8 yards. Press coverage, terrible press, no different than madden, then look at the space upon reception.
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-h...-the-3-yard-TD

Outside shade and the WR just runs right through it for the easy TD
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-h...-for-4-yard-TD

Simple slant creating tons of space
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-h...r-a-21-yard-TD

Short out, killing the DB
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-h...t-of-his-shoes

I understand the points your trying to illustrate phobia. Really i do. And im also not naive enough to say shading should be 100%. But theres a majority of the time where even when you guess right you dont get rewarded for doing so. Like i said it shouldnt be 100% but there should be better coverage in general. Look at this example right here.

This is Darrelle Revis vs Hurns from the Jaguars one on one. I shaded inside for the slant. Revis also has a 99 man cover vs Hurns 75 rated route running. This is the result.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/G3XaHa6Jypc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Now if he caught it with Revis right on his back i wouldnt mind a TD like this. But it blows wide open. Revis has 0 chance at this play and plays like this happen all the time. Had this been further out Hurns wouldve taken this 3-4 yard slant at least 10 yards+ easy.

Being as this is a video game i understand they cant possibly capture all the nuances of a real nfl game. That being said there should always be a risk vs reward when it comes to things like this. If you run a slant and i know your running a slant and shade my defenders inside to stop the slant and you still catch a WIDE OPEN slant vs my 99 man rated corner with, in comparison, a mediocre wide receiver you should theoretically be punished for it or it should at the least be a scary pass to throw. Yea the corner might jump a few but more often then not that is a touchdown a majority of the time.

The examples you gave in your videos while good dont tell the whole story. Alot of those routes that broken open were double moves made by the WR that got the corner off balance. The dolphins video is a prime example. The corners shading inside on the slant. If that was indeed a slant it would have been either a tough catch or a broken up pass. Instead the receiver runs a zig route which breaks him wide open for an easy catch. That should be a catch a majority of the time. Corner guessed wrong and payed for it.

Guess what im saying is i want to see more of the chess match that is football. Theres a reason being a top notch corner in the Nfl means somthing. In madden even the worst of WRs can burn top notch corners way too often.

[Phobia]

Re: Drag Routes Always Open?

I know bruh, it needs work but not the "prevention" some were insisting. Your view and my view lines up with realism, i'm just defending the game of football in general is I guess best way to say it. Now with that said, I full agree with ya bro.


Sent from da lil phone.

[DreSki]

Re: Drag Routes Always Open?

I know bruh, it needs work but not the "prevention" some were insisting. Your view and my view lines up with realism, i'm just defending the game of football in general is I guess best way to say it. Now with that said, I full agree with ya bro.


Sent from da lil phone.

Ah ok i gotcha now. Your 100% right in that regard. Its shouldnt be 100% no way.

[Kushmir]

Re: Drag Routes Always Open?

I'd check your guys. Play recognition to be honest. A lot of DL men are used for athleticism and play rec isn't there, wouldn't pick up that it's play action hence its hitting the RB, also goes off the QBs PA skill.

I think you're missing the point. my opponent is playing the AI but to a greater extent he's playing ME. In the end, he had neither the down & distance or skill to convince me he was running the ball down two scores early. I'm the DC (and the FS, coincidentally) if I tell my players we're pass rushing? we should kinda, sorta pass rush, no? this is basic level stuff. is play recognition going to make my corner playing the right flat in cover 2 zone blitz next?

until they add in players missing/disregarding assignments...there are some things we just need to be able to count on....this is one of them.

update: the following pic took place about an hour ago. Ahhh...the irony. set this guy up with a good running attack. its 3rd & 3 and he thinks i'm running again. He commits to the run, his CB comes off my WR and blitzes off the edge (should never happen--he's in man coverage) when i throw the ball he stops on a dime and recovers to pick it off. so guessing wrong on commit makes a CB get inside leverage? this is just too good.

I won 14-7.

[Phobia]

Re: Drag Routes Always Open?

lol the contradicting is funny in this thread. One hand you guys are complaining the pass coverage is bad and shades don't work. Right after complaining that since he called commit to run should mean "guaranteed" passing completion. This just continues to blow my mind the stuff you are saying.

Sooooo since he called "commit to run" then his players awareness at reading the pass should be completely null & void? He should be unable to pass protect at that point???

The best part of the whole post though

until they add in players missing/disregarding assignments

So then you say

He commits to the run, his CB comes off my WR and blitzes off the edge when i throw the ball he stops on a dime and recovers to pick it off. so guessing wrong on commit makes a CB get inside leverage?

So the CB "disregarded" the commit call which you said right before should be added, then right after complaining about his disregarding the commit call. Its getting comical around these parts.

WTF is going on around here

[Kushmir]

Re: Drag Routes Always Open?

thats just the thing...he didn't ignore the commit call. he run blitzed but magically warped back to my WR when I threw the ball. But to be fair, now we know how to make CBs play with inside leverage, so thats a start.

YAY.

and for the record...when u commit to run, your CBs leave their man assignments and blitz. which should never happen. EVER. Front 7? ok fine. maybe even throw in a safety or two...but no coordinator in the history of football leaves a WR uncovered.

[Kushmir]

Re: Drag Routes Always Open?

Commit could change the way Madden is played if done right....football teams gain huge advantages (though not absolute ones) when they know whats coming and can prepare for it competently. You break the game when you allow people to guess wrong and reap benefits--this is basic stuff. Doing that goes against everything that is strategy-based. That dude couldn't score against me in 10 qtrs lol.

why even have Commit in the game if it doesn't work right?

here's the video, judge for yourself. play at the 4:45 mark https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajVVGGvfrw8

[Phobia]

Re: Drag Routes Always Open?

thats just the thing...he didn't ignore the commit call. he run blitzed but magically warped back to my WR when I threw the ball. But to be fair, now we know how to make CBs play with inside leverage, so thats a start.

YAY.

and for the record...when u commit to run, your CBs leave their man assignments and blitz. which should never happen. EVER. Front 7? ok fine. maybe even throw in a safety or two...but no coordinator in the history of football leaves a WR uncovered.

You have video of the bold? I'd like to see him warping back. I'm not saying madden hasn't had its set of warping/sliding issues. I think you crying "the sky is falling" on this one.

Now about the corners leaving man coverage to blitz, I've never noticed but will check tonight. I believe they might sit at the line of scrimmage a second reading the run before their awareness switches back to pass coverage but I doubt they are switched to a blitz assignment. I'll double check though.

[Phobia]

Re: Drag Routes Always Open?

Commit could change the way Madden is played if done right....football teams gain huge advantages (though not absolute ones) when they know whats coming and can prepare for it competently. You break the game when you allow people to guess wrong and reap benefits--this is basic stuff. Doing that goes against everything that is strategy-based. That dude couldn't score against me in 10 qtrs lol.

why even have Commit in the game if it doesn't work right?

here's the video, judge for yourself. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajVVGGvfrw8

What time is the play at?

[Phobia]

Re: Drag Routes Always Open?

Found it!

First, for sure no warping went on. CB ran forward, planted, and ran back. You were unlucky enough to have a little 2 yard hitch called on that side which put his CB in perfect position to recover for it.

Second, I never noticed this about the run commit and its TERRIBLE!!! If this is how the run commit causes the defense to react then yes it needs to be adjusted big time. Thanks for showing that.