How online players have killed Madden.

[MyxGoDxIsxGrEaTeR]

Re: How online players have killed Madden.

This is an argument that takes place in America every day. Having freedom versus allowing stupidity/bad things to occur. Without getting too political I mean that in society and Madden/games there's always a certain amount of freedom people are given and some are always going to choose to abuse that freedom.

Yes there are things society/EA can do to cut down on stupidity but at the end of the day with freedom comes the freedom to act stupid and do awful things, be it in real life or in a game.

As others have said here also, this isn't limited to Madden, it's throughout the entire internet when it comes to gaming. Yes some things are more obvious than others but people on here seem to act as if Madden is special in that regards and its not.

Fair enough, but when I read this post all I think of is just sit here, do nothing and accept it. Said "social justice" issues along with the issues in a game forever need to be challenged, otherwise the pattern repeats itself and gets worse.

Madden has surely arrived to that point... I remember the exploits and cheese running rampant ever since I was playing online with my Playstation 2.

Tools to discern whom we are playing are necessary, and shouldn't have been taken out in the first place, but cheats, glitches and exploits (I'm not so much talking about nanos. They did a great job of allowing us to block every blitz this year) that have worked since last year which CLEARLY give the other player the advantage or allows them to manipulate the other players defense (Eagle Flip Trips formation) or modify the entire game itself by way of the "players walk off the field" glitch?

Nah, bruh. Unacceptable.

[JBH3]

Re: How online players have killed Madden.

To those who feel they get "cheesed" do you ever look to see the play your opponent just ran? I use this especially for those players who stay in a zone d the whole time. A HB option play usually kills a zone and if you got a HB who can run and catch you can take advantage of the holes in their defense. My Reggie Bush loyalty card is beast in this regard.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Looking at the play they just ran is only part of the story though, because given enough hot routes the actual play will likely not resemble the play art much at all. And if they are no huddling you don't even get that.

[ODogg]

How online players have killed Madden.

Fair enough, but when I read this post all I think of is just sit here, do nothing and accept it. Said "social justice" issues along with the issues in a game forever need to be challenged, otherwise the pattern repeats itself and gets worse.

Madden has surely arrived to that point... I remember the exploits and cheese running rampant ever since I was playing online with my Playstation 2.

Tools to discern whom we are playing are necessary, and shouldn't have been taken out in the first place, but cheats, glitches and exploits (I'm not so much talking about nanos. They did a great job of allowing us to block every blitz this year) that have worked since last year which CLEARLY give the other player the advantage or allows them to manipulate the other players defense (Eagle Flip Trips formation) or modify the entire game itself by way of the "players walk off the field" glitch?

Nah, bruh. Unacceptable.

Actually only one post right after that I said I didn't like it and it needs resolved but trying to take away people's freedom to play the game however they want, no matter how stupid is not the right way to go.

We simply need tools online to allow us to align ourselves with people who choose to play the game in a realistic fashion and avoid those who don't..

I posted a systems page or two back detailing how to do just that but it went largely ignored. Probably because it's easy to discuss a problem and complain about it than it is to actually discuss solutions and how to implement them. Again, just like social issues heh..


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[ODogg]

Re: How online players have killed Madden.

Just to clarify: the answer isn't to disallow people to go for it in the first quarter when it's 4th and 25 from their own 5 yard line.

The answer is to never be involved in a game with an idiot like that to begin with..


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[MyxGoDxIsxGrEaTeR]

Re: How online players have killed Madden.

Actually only one post right after that I said I didn't like it and it needs resolved but trying to take away people's freedom to play the game however they want, no matter how stupid is not the right way to go.

We simply need tools online to allow us to align ourselves with people who choose to play the game in a realistic fashion and avoid those who don't..

I posted a systems page or two back detailing how to do just that but it went largely ignored. Probably because it's easy to discuss a problem and complain about it than it is to actually discuss solutions and how to implement them. Again, just like social issues heh..


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I read your 2nd post. Don't want you to think I ignored it. I actually referenced it in my last paragraph.

When did you compose this "systems" page and what "audience" ignored it? OS, consumers or EA?

I agree with all of what you're saying, but my gripe is with EA seemingly not acknowledging said issues and acting as if these exploits don't exist. At least acknowledge that the community is being heard. I have beef with a lot of what Bungie does, but I will never say that they don't provide a platform or opportunity to directly speak to them about issues with their games (Halo back then and Destiny now).

Now whether they adhere or just say "Screw you, we're going to keep doing what we're doing" is different, but I feel many complaints, exploits, are legitimate about this game and there is nowhere to go to directly discuss and share this information amongst the community and more importantly, the developers themselves.

That's the problem.

There is no reason the "walk your players off the field" and "desync" glitches should still work, and there is no reason that the players shouldn't be fumble prone after running hurry up offense for more than 3 plays.

[ODogg]

Re: How online players have killed Madden.

I agree that those glitches do need fixed ASAP and those are on EA, but I'm talking more about the style of football a lot of the immature people seem to enjoy playing online that tends to ruin sim players like here at OS.

As for what I composed, I meant my post here referring to eliminating or at least co-opting the win-loss record with a point system of rewards and penalties. It's akin to what a lot of racing games employ.

I was disappointed because of no one addressing it.

My main point is we need to start thinking of feasible and practical solutions to this problem versus what a lot of OSers tend to do and that's bitch, complain and attack EA because people abuse their freedoms in Madden..


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[graphster21]

Re: How online players have killed Madden.

Realistically, the only two viable solutions are 1) Play in a CFM or league with people who agree to play by a set of rules, or 2) Play online and try to make the best of a poor situation.

A big part of the reason that people do stupid stuff online is because the game doesn't punish them for it. The only real way that is going to change is if EA improves the game.

If you look at every other game that has a viable competitive online H2H scene, it's because the game is structured in a way so that people feel rewarded for getting better at the game, and because "getting better at the game" is more or less (with a few exceptions) synonymous with "playing the game the way it should be played." Until EA makes more progress in making that happen, then Madden H2H competitive play will continue to suffer.

In many cases where H2H play is more popular, the game companies themselves are active in patching/balancing the game when they see that certain things are over/under powered or if a major glitch or bug is discovered. Of course, many of these games are also on PC, where the patch process is easier and there are no costs (other than development time) for releasing regular updates (as opposed to the console model, where we generally only get one or two major patches per year). For example, League of Legends, which is arguably the game with the largest online player base and which has incredibly robust ranked ladders and a competitive scene, has released 21 patches in roughly the past calendar year, not to mention several other "hotfix" updates that were released in between patches when "gamebreaking" issues were discovered. Given that sports games are on a yearly cycle, there is no way they will ever release a perfectly balanced game, so the only feasible way to improve things is to move to a system where the game studios can release updates more regularly.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Re: How online players have killed Madden.

Realistically, the only two viable solutions are 1) Play in a CFM or league with people who agree to play by a set of rules, or 2) Play online and try to make the best of a poor situation.

A big part of the reason that people do stupid stuff online is because the game doesn't punish them for it. The only real way that is going to change is if EA improves the game.

If you look at every other game that has a viable competitive online H2H scene, it's because the game is structured in a way so that people feel rewarded for getting better at the game, and because "getting better at the game" is more or less (with a few exceptions) synonymous with "playing the game the way it should be played." Until EA makes more progress in making that happen, then Madden H2H competitive play will continue to suffer.

In many cases where H2H play is more popular, the game companies themselves are active in patching/balancing the game when they see that certain things are over/under powered or if a major glitch or bug is discovered. Of course, many of these games are also on PC, where the patch process is easier and there are no costs (other than development time) for releasing regular updates (as opposed to the console model, where we generally only get one or two major patches per year). For example, League of Legends, which is arguably the game with the largest online player base and which has incredibly robust ranked ladders and a competitive scene, has released 21 patches in roughly the past calendar year, not to mention several other "hotfix" updates that were released in between patches when "gamebreaking" issues were discovered. Given that sports games are on a yearly cycle, there is no way they will ever release a perfectly balanced game, so the only feasible way to improve things is to move to a system where the game studios can release updates more regularly.

The comparison to League of Legends doesn't really work though. League of Legends isn't trying to model a real sport played by real human beings, so it has no need to achieve a "simulation." If something isn't fun or unbalances the game, they can dramatically alter how it works or just remove it entirely. EA doesn't have that luxury, and when they remove something they haven't figured out how to make work or properly balance (squib kicks, wildcat audibles, defensive assignments) there are howls from the fanbase and rightly so.

There's also the problem that a lot of gamers' views of what is realistic football aren't accurate. A Madden user who almost never huddled and threw on 82% of their plays would be slammed as a cheeser, yet that's what New England just did to New York last week.

As I said earlier, when you shorten the quarter lengths but tune the game to have the same levels of offensive results as a game 3x as long, then it makes aggressive strategy the correct play. Imagine if there was a baseball video game where you only played 4 innings but users still expected the same amount of home runs as a full length contest. The game would be slanted towards the batter and things like bunting and playing small ball would be a horrendous idea.

[goillini03]

Re: How online players have killed Madden.

I guess that is my question. Why does the game have to produce realistic stats? I get that it has to produce a quicker game to get some scoring, but scoring 28 points should not be the end game.

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[graphster21]

Re: How online players have killed Madden.

The comparison to League of Legends doesn't really work though. League of Legends isn't trying to model a real sport played by real human beings, so it has no need to achieve a "simulation." If something isn't fun or unbalances the game, they can dramatically alter how it works or just remove it entirely. EA doesn't have that luxury, and when they remove something they haven't figured out how to make work or properly balance (squib kicks, wildcat audibles, defensive assignments) there are howls from the fanbase and rightly so.

There's also the problem that a lot of gamers' views of what is realistic football aren't accurate. A Madden user who almost never huddled and threw on 82% of their plays would be slammed as a cheeser, yet that's what New England just did to New York last week.

As I said earlier, when you shorten the quarter lengths but tune the game to have the same levels of offensive results as a game 3x as long, then it makes aggressive strategy the correct play. Imagine if there was a baseball video game where you only played 4 innings but users still expected the same amount of home runs as a full length contest. The game would be slanted towards the batter and things like bunting and playing small ball would be a horrendous idea.

You are right that it is inherently harder to balance sports games. I think that is an argument for MORE patches, not fewer. In a model with more patches, EA could incrementally try various solutions (i.e. increase/decrease pass rush, pass coverage, QB accuracy defensive reactions and assignments, etc..., and alter or remove problematic plays) and then monitor what happens and make corrections in a week or two if things weren't working out. With the current system, they basically release the game, start collecting feedback on things that are out of balance, and then more or less get one (sometimes two) chances to fix all of those things at the same time. This puts a lot of pressure on the patches to get things right without much of a chance to monitor or see how it plays out when people start playing H2H, and leaves little opportunity for changes or corrections if things are found or become problematic after the initial round of patches are released, which is compounded by the fact that it there is a lengthy first party approval process that delays the releases of the patches themselves for a few weeks.

In terms of the unconventional stuff, I agree with you, but that also underscores the difficulty of creating a "sim" community to run parallel to the official "ranked online" leaderboards that EA operates. Different people have different conceptions of what kinds of tactics are "sim," and so it will be impossible to come up with a set of guidelines that would work for everyone. We can all agree that certain obvious glitches and exploits should not be used, but beyond that it is not very feasible to get universal agreement. Finding the difference between "unconventional but not an exploit" versus "unconventional and would never work in real life because it takes advantage of an AI flaw" is a really difficult thing to do, so creating self-imposed rules to govern a large player base is not feasible.

[graphster21]

Re: How online players have killed Madden.

I guess that is my question. Why does the game have to produce realistic stats? I get that it has to produce a quicker game to get some scoring, but scoring 28 points should not be the end game.

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People want to see realistic looking scores, is part of it.

One thing they could try and do is speed the game up to get more plays in during the same quarter lengths. For example, they could shorten the playclock to 20 or 25 seconds, which would have the effect of forcing people to call more plays. It would also change some of the end-game strategy, but perhaps that would be alright. You could also go the other direction and use longer quarters but automatically use an accelerated clock, but this becomes problematic when people are no-huddling or for end of half situations. They could also try and reduce and/or eliminate some of the cut scenes and presentation elements that slow the game down a little bit; at least in the regular online ranked/MUT environments.

If they got to a place where people were using almost the same number of plays and possessions per game as teams in real life (without having to sit through extremely long games), then they could tune it a bit differently. That would take some work and creative thinking, but they could probably do a few things that would at least make it better.

[MyxGoDxIsxGrEaTeR]

Re: How online players have killed Madden.

You are right that it is inherently harder to balance sports games. I think that is an argument for MORE patches, not fewer. In a model with more patches, EA could incrementally try various solutions (i.e. increase/decrease pass rush, pass coverage, QB accuracy defensive reactions and assignments, etc..., and alter or remove problematic plays) and then monitor what happens and make corrections in a week or two if things weren't working out. With the current system, they basically release the game, start collecting feedback on things that are out of balance, and then more or less get one (sometimes two) chances to fix all of those things at the same time. This puts a lot of pressure on the patches to get things right without much of a chance to monitor or see how it plays out when people start playing H2H, and leaves little opportunity for changes or corrections if things are found or become problematic after the initial round of patches are released, which is compounded by the fact that it there is a lengthy first party approval process that delays the releases of the patches themselves for a few weeks.

In terms of the unconventional stuff, I agree with you, but that also underscores the difficulty of creating a "sim" community to run parallel to the official "ranked online" leaderboards that EA operates. Different people have different conceptions of what kinds of tactics are "sim," and so it will be impossible to come up with a set of guidelines that would work for everyone. We can all agree that certain obvious glitches and exploits should not be used, but beyond that it is not very feasible to get universal agreement. Finding the difference between "unconventional but not an exploit" versus "unconventional and would never work in real life because it takes advantage of an AI flaw" is a really difficult thing to do, so creating self-imposed rules to govern a large player base is not feasible.

Folks have given several types of ideas that could make the game user friendly for everyone while taking away the proverbial "cheese" players can do.[/COLOR]

Its not easy, but it will take work, and the devs would have to be humble and admit they had things wrong... Which significant Triple A developers (EA, Ubisoft, Konami, etc) avoid doing at all costs.

What is the point of creating anything if you're not willing to do research? I hope the extent of it isn't that "Did you enjoy playing your opponent?" question they ask you after every game. That's not valid nor reliable for an indication of how the game plays and the users opinion of said game.

This is what a Quality Assurance department is for... To look at these things the community is bringing up and consider it for the current and future products. I have no indication that EA listens to the community other than a few mods here who say that "certain developers" come by here from time to time to look at the forums. This means nothing if they don't compile or synthesize the information/research they collect.

What they need to do is take a step and DEFINE what "cheese" is according to simulation football. It doesn't have to be completely accurate within the context of "true" football, but they need to define it within the bounds of the game they create. So, if more than 3 "no huddles" is cheese, make it so, and make the players extremely tired and FUMBLE PRONE on the 4th play.

If running the same play over and over again is considered cheese, develop a counter to which how many times that play will work out the way it's supposed to during that offensive series or within that moment to receive a first down. If they run it more than the allotted amount of times, have the DBs run the routes for the WRs and have the linebackers run commit to the gap in which the play is without having the user actually run commit.

There is absolutely NO EXCUSES or players walking off the field glitch and desync glitch to still be working in this game. FIX this... Please. We are going on 3 years with these actual, not to be debated, cheating glitches that can be done by any player without consequence.

These are a few things that they can do, and when the next game comes out and we, like suckers, go and buy it and see that little to none of the suggestions made by the community had any bearing on the creation of that game (evidenced by the lack of change in the cheese, glitches, etc), it just looks like they don't give a damn about the consumers and their loyalty.

At this point, I don't feel they do.

[franko3219]

Re: How online players have killed Madden.

If running the same play over and over again is considered cheese, develop a counter to which how many times that play will work out the way it's supposed to during that offensive series or within that moment to receive a first down. If they run it more than the allotted amount of times, have the DBs run the routes for the WRs and have the linebackers run commit to the gap in which the play is without having the user actually run commit.

This is and has been my biggest issue with any football video game (NCAA or Madden); plays that are ran over and over and over again without your players adjusting to that. Slants for example, you tell your d to have inside alignment and underneath coverage, yet their is the receiver for the seventh play in a row, running wide open. It is one thing if a team is running up the middle on you because his oline is superior to your dline and is switching up calls, but to see the same play run over and over again without consequence is ridiculous.

[Mikeatris]

Re: How online players have killed Madden.

Man who are you guys telling. I like playing MUT and Draft Champions but the over the top cheese is really getting on my nerves. I do play a balance game with the run and pass and I like to run all formations but when they start the chunking it down the field all day it is only a few plays I run when they do that and it is starting to get boring now. It was not bad a first but now it is getting really ridiculous. Plus a lot of toss sweeps with certain formations are a nightmare to stop. 15 was way more balanced than this but that is a moot point. The game is so unrealistic now that it would have been nice if there was another football game to go along side the Madden game every year.