Shopmaster Interview with Ben Haumiller Part 2

[briz1046]

Re: Shopmaster Interview with Ben Haumiller Part 2

A repeated refrain in these forums relates to features not being introduced or expanded upon because to do so would not be ' fun' for the user , defining fun in a very narrow sense implying a need to supply almost instant gratification to the user

I think this is doing the video game audience a major disservice

Think of the movie industry , a media competing with video games for the leisure time of a similar , if not the same target audience

Sure they offer up light comedy and blockbuster super hero films but equally more thoughtful films , broadly under the umbrella entertainment , could a film like ' schindlers list ' be defined as fun ? Probably not , yet people flocked to see it , it won countless awards and remains popular across all age groups

People engage in hobbies , for their own fun , often involving more 'hard work' than their regular day job . Think gardening, why spend hours digging planting and tending plants in your spare time , if it's not ' fun' ?

People's definition of what us fun to them varies to a massive degree and to pigeon hole every body into one narrow definition does the audience an injustice

[aholbert32]

Re: Shopmaster Interview with Ben Haumiller Part 2

Me personally, I am getting tired of the excuses. I know he didn't use the excuse of resources/dev team size in this specific instance but this has been the madden dev team go to excuse for years.

Madden makes hundred of millions of dollars for EA every year (don't let them lie to you). Why else would they host madden bowls and other tournaments with cash rewards. This game is turning a profit literally every single year. I am not even get started on how much ultimate team brings in for them.

If EA wasn't so greedy and just increased the dev team and resource money for just one cycle I am sure they could gain ground on knocking out several legacy issues such as contracts. They would not even come close to taking a loss for that one dev cycle.

Honestly I am super on the fence about buying this year (haven't missed a year in almost 22 years). I am thinking about speaking with my wallet for a change. I roll my eyes everytime I hear the resources financials excuse. There is absolutely now reason on this generation of consoles the highest grossing American sports game, and second most grossing sports game overall should have a franchise mode light years behind other games.

Ben may very well care, burn EA absolutely does not and they have final say. As long as ultimate scheme keeps churning out money like a money printing machine their attitude will always be "what for ?"

I'm not being sarcastic with this. Please do this and be vocal about it.

If something like contracts means that much to you, you should absolutely speak with your wallet. I wish more people would do that here instead of just complaining on OS and buying the game at full price.

I'm buying the game because the way I play franchise, contracts dont really matter and the rest of the new features are improvements for my kind of play. If it wasnt, I would do the same as you.

[aholbert32]

Re: Shopmaster Interview with Ben Haumiller Part 2

A repeated refrain in these forums relates to features not being introduced or expanded upon because to do so would not be ' fun' for the user , defining fun in a very narrow sense implying a need to supply almost instant gratification to the user

I think this is doing the video game audience a major disservice

Think of the movie industry , a media competing with video games for the leisure time of a similar , if not the same target audience

Sure they offer up light comedy and blockbuster super hero films but equally more thoughtful films , broadly under the umbrella entertainment , could a film like ' schindlers list ' be defined as fun ? Probably not , yet people flocked to see it , it won countless awards and remains popular across all age groups

People engage in hobbies , for their own fun , often involving more 'hard work' than their regular day job . Think gardening, why spend hours digging planting and tending plants in your spare time , if it's not ' fun' ?

People's definition of what us fun to them varies to a massive degree and to pigeon hole every body into one narrow definition does the audience an injustice

To be honest, Schindler's List came out 25 years ago. I cant recall a similar movie like that people "flocked to see" in probably 10-15 yrs.

The numbers speak for themselves. The top video games are ones that are geared towards being fun (in the casual definition). The top movies are too.

[SeaTownGamer]

Re: Shopmaster Interview with Ben Haumiller Part 2

The biggest thing I’ll take from this:

We have the right guy finally leading franchise. Ben is a class act and his passion is something that was sorely needed. This is his first year with franchise so I’m excited to see what he brings.

His work speaks for itself and I think as long as he is there, we will see real improvment.

Him being nice doesn’t mean franchise will be better. Lol. I don’t care about him being a class act or not. The big question is can he execute and give us what we want?...The guy can can be a jerk but as long as he makes a helluva franchise I would be happy.


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[briz1046]

Re: Shopmaster Interview with Ben Haumiller Part 2

To be honest, Schindler's List came out 25 years ago. I cant recall a similar movie like that people "flocked to see" in probably 10-15 yrs.

The numbers speak for themselves. The top video games are ones that are geared towards being fun (in the casual definition). The top movies are too.

Valid point , my point remains though that other media ( movies, tv , written forms) happily offer up more thoughtful content whilst vying for our leisure time , that's no reason video games shouldn't

To bring this back to Madden though I'm pretty sure there was never any discussion regarding introducing RPM where devs considered not doing it in case people felt it woudn't be fun , maybe I'm wrong though?
Likewise, (again I could easily be off the mark here as I've never played it) but my understanding is , in UT , it is readily accepted people will grind through various drills/ challenges to ' level up or earn rewards , but ask them to do , what would be similar activities , in a training situation in CFM wouldn't be fun

[aholbert32]

Re: Shopmaster Interview with Ben Haumiller Part 2

Valid point , my point remains though that other media ( movies, tv , written forms) happily offer up more thoughtful content whilst vying for our leisure time , that's no reason video games shouldn't

To bring this back to Madden though I'm pretty sure there was never any discussion regarding introducing RPM where devs considered not doing it in case people felt it woudn't be fun , maybe I'm wrong though?
Likewise, (again I could easily be off the mark here as I've never played it) but my understanding is , in UT , it is readily accepted people will grind through various drills/ challenges to ' level up or earn rewards , but ask them to do , what would be similar activities , in a training situation in CFM wouldn't be fun

The reason is money. I'll give you an example from television because thats the industry I work in.

AMC is a network that airs one of the most popular shows "The Walking Dead". Its mindless fun entertainment that isnt centered in any realism or deep drama. Its makes AMC money hand over fist though because its somewhat cheap to produce and they charge a ton for advertising.

AMC also had a show "Halt and Catch Fire" which was an amazing show with a great plot and great acting....that had incredibly ****ty ratings. The show lasted for 4 yrs. How? Because AMC was making so much money with TWD that it could afford to air a great show like Halt and not really hurt its bottom line.

The problem is Madden is TWD in this scenario. Its an extremely popular game that at times lacks realism and feature depth that is trying to appeal to the most people possible. The second problem is that unlike TWD, Madden is the only NFL football game. Any TV network could air a hyper realistic Zombie show (as realistic as a show like that could be) if it wanted too. No one other than EA can create an NFL game.

EA uses the money generated by Madden and FIFA to fund the indy games it releases among other small titles. They cant do anything that could potentially screw up that money. So they arent likely to ever focus solely or primarily on things the sim community wants if those things arent features that casual fans really want too.

[Big FN Deal]

Re: Shopmaster Interview with Ben Haumiller Part 2

Valid point , my point remains though that other media ( movies, tv , written forms) happily offer up more thoughtful content whilst vying for our leisure time , that's no reason video games shouldn't

To bring this back to Madden though I'm pretty sure there was never any discussion regarding introducing RPM where devs considered not doing it in case people felt it woudn't be fun , maybe I'm wrong though?
Likewise, (again I could easily be off the mark here as I've never played it) but my understanding is , in UT , it is readily accepted people will grind through various drills/ challenges to ' level up or earn rewards , but ask them to do , what would be similar activities , in a training situation in CFM wouldn't be fun

This exact point has been made repeatedly and still holds true, EA Tib does whatever they want to do and these supposed excuses are illogical reasoning after the fact, imo. For example any claim that what EA has chosen to do with Madden is justified for profit is illogical when other games are making profit, in competitive markets no less, taking different approaches. If I'm not mistaken MUT has been revealed to be the cash cow for EA, so I fail to see how Madden being a better representation of real football would make that mode less fun and lucrative.

I have wondered if "fun" was just a cheaper investment than authenticity and even though there may be something to that, when I see the seeming resources put into stuff like Longshot, I honestly don't know why EA created this divisive strawman of fun and authenticity being at odds in a sports simulation video game.

[kennypowers88]

Re: Shopmaster Interview with Ben Haumiller Part 2

The reason is money. I'll give you an example from television because thats the industry I work in.

AMC is a network that airs one of the most popular shows "The Walking Dead". Its mindless fun entertainment that isnt centered in any realism or deep drama. Its makes AMC money hand over fist though because its somewhat cheap to produce and they charge a ton for advertising.

AMC also had a show "Halt and Catch Fire" which was an amazing show with a great plot and great acting....that had incredibly ****ty ratings. The show lasted for 4 yrs. How? Because AMC was making so much money with TWD that it could afford to air a great show like Halt and not really hurt its bottom line.

The problem is Madden is TWD in this scenario. Its an extremely popular game that at times lacks realism and feature depth that is trying to appeal to the most people possible. The second problem is that unlike TWD, Madden is the only NFL football game. Any TV network could air a hyper realistic Zombie show (as realistic as a show like that could be) if it wanted too. No one other than EA can create an NFL game.

EA uses the money generated by Madden and FIFA to fund the indy games it releases among other small titles. They cant do anything that could potentially screw up that money. So they arent likely to ever focus solely or primarily on things the sim community wants if those things arent features that casual fans really want too.

This is definitely true, but what frustrates me is knowing how much time was not only spent on casual features, but wasted. If they more efficiently used the development cycle, I think we could have both. Give us all the realism we want, but let the casual players turn it off or make it easier. I mean, I'd be thrilled with this years announcements if they weren't being applied to a shallow foundation. Franchise should be the one area of the game that depth is always prioritized, and it just doesn't seem to be the case. Let the other modes and aspects of the game draw in casuals.

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[aholbert32]

Re: Shopmaster Interview with Ben Haumiller Part 2

This is definitely true, but what frustrates me is knowing how much time was not only spent on casual features, but wasted. If they more efficiently used the development cycle, I think we could have both. Give us all the realism we want, but let the casual players turn it off or make it easier. I mean, I'd be thrilled with this years announcements if they weren't being applied to a shallow foundation. Franchise should be the one area of the game that depth is always prioritized, and it just doesn't seem to be the case. Let the other modes and aspects of the game draw in casuals.

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Can you give me an example of this? I'm aware of them focusing on things that arent of interest to me or the sim community but not them wasting development time.

[aholbert32]

Re: Shopmaster Interview with Ben Haumiller Part 2

This exact point has been made repeatedly and still holds true, EA Tib does whatever they want to do and these supposed excuses are illogical reasoning after the fact, imo. For example any claim that what EA has chosen to do with Madden is justified for profit is illogical when other games are making profit, in competitive markets no less, taking different approaches. If I'm not mistaken MUT has been revealed to be the cash cow for EA, so I fail to see how Madden being a better representation of real football would make that mode less fun and lucrative.

I have wondered if "fun" was just a cheaper investment than authenticity and even though there may be something to that, when I see the seeming resources put into stuff like Longshot, I honestly don't know why EA created this divisive strawman of fun and authenticity being at odds in a sports simulation video game.

Its not fun vs. authenticity imo. Its care or dont care.

When adding a feature will the majority of gamers (sim or casual) care about the feature they are adding? Is this feature going to motivate past purchasers to buy the game and motivate people who dont buy Madden to buy the game.

Take Longshot. I'm not privy to Madden's numbers but I've talked to EA's devs and story modes are pretty popular. EA's data shows that. The Journey on FIFA was a success. 2k's story mode is really popular for its NBA title. Longshot didnt make a single person at OS excited about that game but it was directed at them. It was directed at the person who plays Madden casually or not at all in an attempt to give them another entry point to the game.

I have to give Madden 19 some credit so far though. They have added a few things and gone in a realistic direction from what ive seen. The reality is no one but hardcore sim players care about things like draft class edits in CFMs and they made that a focal point of their CFM improvements. RPM is an animation system that they could of gone in a completely goofy and unrealistic direction but it APPEARS that they direction they took it in a direction that this community will like.

In the end, its just a corporation being a corporation. Some choose to go in a more sim direction for sales (NBA 2k and some aspects of the Show)...some dont.

[TheBleedingRed21]

Re: Shopmaster Interview with Ben Haumiller Part 2

Him being nice doesn’t mean franchise will be better. Lol. I don’t care about him being a class act or not. The big question is can he execute and give us what we want?...The guy can can be a jerk but as long as he makes a helluva franchise I would be happy.


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So as usual you disregarded the rest of the post that said his passion and previous work speaks for itself. Doesn’t surprise me. If you don’t agree, oh well.

[kennypowers88]

Re: Shopmaster Interview with Ben Haumiller Part 2

Can you give me an example of this? I'm aware of them focusing on things that arent of interest to me or the sim community but not them wasting development time.

If I had time, I'd be interested in going back through previous releases to get a good list together. But, let's start with any feature that was implemented and quickly scrapped/replaced. True step, Total control passing, etc. Then, you could argue any feature that was poorly implemented or never expanded on was a waste of time when you consider the opportunity cost. Scouting, playbook gameplans, etc. I'd also considering any additions, such as a draft board, to these terrible features a waste of time. And none of this even covers the more broad concepts like losing developers to NBA Live, or more miscellaneous examples like spending time after EA play to dumb down man coverage in Madden 18. And none of this factors in creative differences, because I think adding to CFM was a mistake, as was creating Longshot before the other features were of decent quality. Worst of all, this only goes back 5 or so years...

From where I sit, it seems like Madden is always trying to surpass other video games, but it doesn't realize that it hasn't even caught up yet. I realize that no business is perfect, and even the best waste time, but Madden seems to have made a habit out of it. I think the disparity between it and other games helps reinforce this idea, because surely these developers have talent or they wouldn't have gotten to where they are.

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[Junior Moe]

Re: Shopmaster Interview with Ben Haumiller Part 2

I like Ben. I don't personally care about the suits, or company or whatever else. I just judge the end product in areas I care about against other games in the same space. That's it. I don't follow nor care about the dev cycle of any other game I purchase. That being said, time will tell. I like the improvements franchise has seen so far. Ben mentioning immersion as much as he did is a plus. The first step to getting out of a hole is to stop digging. If nothing else I feel they have done that with franchise by adding things the community requested.

Id really like to have the option to see all the draft picks (not their ratings or anything). If I have the 20th pick, I want to see 1 through 19. At the very least the first round should be shown. This adds immersion. Another small thing that adds up to something big for me is stuff like having the players in their practice equipment (like training camp during the PS2 days) during weekly training. I love stuff like that.

[Big FN Deal]

Re: Shopmaster Interview with Ben Haumiller Part 2

Its not fun vs. authenticity imo. Its care or dont care.

When adding a feature will the majority of gamers (sim or casual) care about the feature they are adding? Is this feature going to motivate past purchasers to buy the game and motivate people who dont buy Madden to buy the game.

Take Longshot. I'm not privy to Madden's numbers but I've talked to EA's devs and story modes are pretty popular. EA's data shows that. The Journey on FIFA was a success. 2k's story mode is really popular for its NBA title. Longshot didnt make a single person at OS excited about that game but it was directed at them. It was directed at the person who plays Madden casually or not at all in an attempt to give them another entry point to the game.

I have to give Madden 19 some credit so far though. They have added a few things and gone in a realistic direction from what ive seen. The reality is no one but hardcore sim players care about things like draft class edits in CFMs and they made that a focal point of their CFM improvements. RPM is an animation system that they could of gone in a completely goofy and unrealistic direction but it APPEARS that they direction they took it in a direction that this community will like.

In the end, its just a corporation being a corporation. Some choose to go in a more sim direction for sales (NBA 2k and some aspects of the Show)...some dont.

The bold is generally fair to say BUT with Madden, EA is constantly marketing and touting implementation of authenticity, as well as at times claiming it's priority. So when you add in that fact which clearly shows they see merit in authenticity when it suits them, with the fact that other games are delivering that consistently, using "fun" first as a reasoning for lacking authenticity is bizarre and comes across as disingenuous.

[jpdavis82]

Shopmaster Interview with Ben Haumiller Part 2

Smace. You’re not reading what I’m writing. 1st year in FRANCHISE. Do you think the dude is making it up when he literally says it in the interview? Lol

Rex was over gameplay from Madden 13-19, ok now here’s the timeline for CFM, I’m pretty sure this was the way it was anyway.

Madden 13- Looman
Madden 25-Kolbe and Looman
Madden 15- Kolbe and Looman
Madden 16-Kolbe and John White
Madden 17- Kolbe and John White
Madden 18- John White
Madden 19-Ben and John White


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