Why Next-Gen Madden Can't Make the Same Mistakes All Over Again

[bxphenom7]

I lost faith in Madden long long long ago (thanks for that Madden 08) and I've yet to be proven wrong in doing so. Also, it's just good practice to not buy a sports game its first year on a new console, sometimes even its second year. 

[patsfan1993]

Re: Why Next-Gen Madden Can't Make the Same Mistakes All Over Again

Good article. I have been waiting for the other side of the coin with the "Why Next-Gen Madden Will Make the Same Mistakes All Over Again" article.

[illwill10]

Re: Why Next-Gen Madden Can't Make the Same Mistakes All Over Again

Feels like we won't hear anything more about next gen until after post current gen launch. Seems like they are still slow rolling out info on current gen info. We are getting info on Feedback on Beta on this Tuesday. Then I can imagine the Official X-Factors/Superstar ability Gridiron Notes will follow that. Then would be any Presentation changes Gridiron, any MUT, and The Yard blog. Then gameplay vids will start to come out between all that.

I just don't want the selling point for next gen to be a better looking port that takes advantage of hardware features. Im sure all the modes will transfer over to next gen(don't see them stripping down anything). Based on trailers, they are still using Frostbite. At the very least, I just want them to take advantage of the big jump in CPU power to improve the AI and physics

[Kanobi]

Re: Why Next-Gen Madden Can't Make the Same Mistakes All Over Again

Also, it's just good practice to not buy a sports game its first year on a new console, sometimes even its second year.*

Yep. I'm personally looking toward Madden '23 as the one to reasonably expect Tiburon to harness full or near full capabilties of next-gen tech.

My biggest gripe with the game right now is its "soft" and air buffered player contact.....its inability to replicate the violence of football (outside of hit stick tackles) with real momentum and the transference of explosive kinectic energy upon impact between players.

If Tiburon is ever able to achieve this...via rebuilding the game or otherwise...it would be HUGE. Without it, they simply will never have a simulation of the sport no matter how many AI tweaks and graphical upgrades they make to the game.

[Agent89]

Re: Why Next-Gen Madden Can't Make the Same Mistakes All Over Again

Gameplay has been steadily improving, at least in theory. With mods on PC, you can maximize the changes they make, and minimize the imbalances new features create, so the bottom line on Gameplay is that it is improving - even with the current engine everyone likes to hate.


But AI in general needs so much work, including in Franchise.





If they want to avoid the mistakes of the past, they need to do three things:


(1) Completely overhaul Franchise, adding more or less all the things Deuce Douglass has been evangelizing for years


(2) Completely overhaul, or at least significantly update, presentation (commentary is really good for a sports game, but there are so many other areas where presentation can be improved; post-game, pre-game, Franchise in between games making the league come alive, and so on).


(3) Continue to implement gameplay ideas that lead to more faithfully simulating what is seen on Sundays in the NFL.







Each of these are major, but none should be ignored.

As much as I would like to consider a PC, it's just not practical for me in a Mac household, nor would I have the space for it. I do respect the work put into mods a great deal but this just further exacerbates the problem with EA's efforts. All the tools already in their own game aren't even used properly. But nonetheless, a lot is left to be desired with replicating the true facets of the sports, and physics are a very key component along with AI and player behavior. I do wholeheartedly agree about Franchise, and 2K5's weekly prep, and weekly highlights/player movement commentary features are something that scratches the surface of what franchise should've been at least 7-8 years ago.
I also agree about the commentary––if you pay attention, Gaudin and Davis really do have a lot to say and have lines for a very robust set of situations. This is one thing EA has gotten right, but unfortunately from what I read, a lot of players can't stand the two. What I would like to see is them continuing to expand the commentary with these two and introducing another broadcast team (perhaps Joe Buck and Troy Aikman or Tony Romo and Jim Nantz), and having the option to pick between the two in exhibition games, while assigning them to different packages in Franchise mode.

[Agent89]

Re: Why Next-Gen Madden Can't Make the Same Mistakes All Over Again

Yep. I'm personally looking toward Madden '23 as the one to reasonably expect Tiburon to harness full or near full capabilties of next-gen tech.

My biggest gripe with the game right now is its "soft" and air buffered player contact.....its inability to replicate the violence of football (outside of hit stick tackles) with real momentum and the transference of explosive kinectic energy upon impact between players.

If Tiburon is ever able to achieve this...via rebuilding the game or otherwise...it would be HUGE. Without it, they simply will never have a simulation of the sport no matter how many AI tweaks and graphical upgrades they make to the game.

Physics in a nutshell. They probably can't (or won't want to) invest in creating their own physics engine from scratch, but I sure wish they could license one. Their ego would prevent them from doing so. We're so long overdue for a real-time physics engine. That's the true foundation that should be built for a football game so you see less of the sliding and warping, while making the ratings really matter and impact the game.

[canes21]

Re: Why Next-Gen Madden Can't Make the Same Mistakes All Over Again

As much as I would like to consider a PC, it's just not practical for me in a Mac household, nor would I have the space for it. I do respect the work put into mods a great deal but this just further exacerbates the problem with EA's efforts. All the tools already in their own game aren't even used properly. But nonetheless, a lot is left to be desired with replicating the true facets of the sports, and physics are a very key component along with AI and player behavior. I do wholeheartedly agree about Franchise, and 2K5's weekly prep, and weekly highlights/player movement commentary features are something that scratches the surface of what franchise should've been at least 7-8 years ago.
I also agree about the commentary––if you pay attention, Gaudin and Davis really do have a lot to say and have lines for a very robust set of situations. This is one thing EA has gotten right, but unfortunately from what I read, a lot of players can't stand the two. What I would like to see is them continuing to expand the commentary with these two and introducing another broadcast team (perhaps Joe Buck and Troy Aikman or Tony Romo and Jim Nantz), and having the option to pick between the two in exhibition games, while assigning them to different packages in Franchise mode.

The issue with the commentary in Madden is that EA tries to have too many unique lines. It sounds the opposite of how it should be, but when you strive to have so many unique lines that are distinct, it makes the commentary get stale quicker.

When you hear, "Chestnuts?", or the "Largo" lines each game, sometimes multiple times per game, those types of lines stick out and lose their luster much more quickly than going generic.

It sounds counterproductive, but EA would actually be better served having the commentary team be more generic in their lines, but have the ability to talk about more situations. This is something that also plagues 2k, and while both 2k and Madden have pretty good commentary, their unique lines and stories get old after the 1st and 2nd time, and when your commentary is built to show those lines/stories off, then it makes the entire commentary get stale quicker than it otherwise should.

Even 2k5 struggled with this as well when they had their voice actors have unique stories and lines for different situations. It lead to repetitiveness, and it actually is a reason I think 2k8 has the better commentary despite having less specific lines.

Here is an example of what EA does, it's not an exact EA line, but it shows what they try and do with the commentary.

"Here comes Cam Newton, Superman they call him. A national title winner at Auburn. Brandon, you're a big fan of Newton, aren't you?" and then they have a mini discussion on Cam Newton for a play or two completely missing out on the play by play and telling you something that gets extremely old after 3 or 4 games in your Panthers franchise because they say it every single time he comes out onto the field for the first drive.

While it sounds neat in theory that they have that kind of uniqueness to the lines that make the players feel real and that the commentary team has knowledge of the world your franchise exists in, that is all nullified by the sheer repetitiveness of lines like that.

The play by play also has plenty of unique lines that get old and stale because they are so unique and not generic. It would be better for the commentary team to have multiple generic lines they can say surrounding each player and situation.

For example, when Cam Newton comes onto the field they can say:

"Here comes Cam Newton, the former first round pick out of Auburn."

"Here is Newton, to this point he has X yards, Y TDs, and Z INTs. Then go on to say whether or not it is a good, average, or bad year."

"Here is Cam Newton, the X year vet out of Auburn."

These types of generic lines allow for them to change dynamically as the franchise goes on, they allow for some variability, and they are generic enough to where they don't stick out as being repetitive. When you turn on any football broadcast, you're going to hear those types of introductions for QB's over and over. They get straight to the point in a generic enough manner to not stick out near as much as the example line I gave earlier.

I'd much rather hear those 3 lines plus a few others repeated multiple times over my franchise over one unique line that doesn't update whether I am in year 1 or year 5 of my franchise.

Like I said, it sounds opposite to what you think EA should strive for, but if they went with more generic commentary lines for the play by play and color commentary, lines that sound perfectly fine and realistic to repeat versus extremely unique lines that get stale after 2 hears, then the commentary would immediately improve.

With their chemistry, the commentary team sounds solid. The only knocks I see on the commentary is typically about their unique lines. People constantly quote the dumb, unique lines and talk about how stale it gets and that's the main reason they mute the commentary. That, and EA being dumb enough to give them lines to record that break the 4th wall. That's a gigantic no-no.

Other issues with the unique lines is how they aren't set up to play correctly in context. Using modded gameplay on PC in my CPU vs CPU franchise, it plays out like a realistic NFL game. Each team runs 60-70 plays, only gets 300-400 yards on average, and there are plenty of punts like the real NFL. It's rather authentic for Madden. What gets extremely old is how the commentary has some unique lines to talk about that more gritty brand of authentic NFL football, but the lines are repeating constantly all game and give incorrect numbers.

I'm playing as Washington. Their offense isn't anything special. They punted on average 5 times per game last year despite running such a slow offense that ate up time limiting their number of punts. My offense is still not the greatest, but my defense in my franchise is one of the more talented ones in the league. This leads to a lot of my games being 19-13 type of games where the teams punt a lot, 3rd down conversions are scarce, and it's just overall low-scoring defensive battles.

This leads to the commentary struggling. Once you punt the ball 4 times, every subsequent punt leads to the commentary talking about how the punter has already punted it 4 times, here comes number 5, give him the bronze leg. You will hear that same exact line play for punt #5, punt #6, punt #7. If your offense is really struggling and you punt closer to 8 or 9 times, you will hear that same exact line about it being punt #5, up to 5 times per game.

This is another area where having completely unique lines is a no-no. Go generic. Have them literally record a line saying, "Here is -player X- <insert_player_name> out to punt for the -#x-
time of the game>" Then have another few generic lines that it could branch into with proper context that sound natural and do not get repetitive.

Do not tell me my punter deserves the bronze leg 5 times in a game. Simply say he has been busy today in 3-4 generic ways. That is much better.

Anyways, there's a book about the commentary team.

Here's a tl;dr that I probably should have just went with instead of typing up that novel.

tl;dr Make the commentary less unique, make it so much more generic and the ability to branch into more generic lines to reduce repetitiveness.</punt_number></insert_player_name>

[jfsolo]

Re: Why Next-Gen Madden Can't Make the Same Mistakes All Over Again

As someone who uses on the field presentation, the PA announcer, which they really improved in 20 and seemingly did more work to this cycle based off of the 21 Beta, is IMO the best commentary aspect of Madden.

[SolidSquid]

Re: Why Next-Gen Madden Can't Make the Same Mistakes All Over Again

The issue with the commentary in Madden is that EA tries to have too many unique lines. It sounds the opposite of how it should be, but when you strive to have so many unique lines that are distinct, it makes the commentary get stale quicker.

When you hear, "Chestnuts?", or the "Largo" lines each game, sometimes multiple times per game, those types of lines stick out and lose their luster much more quickly than going generic.

It sounds counterproductive, but EA would actually be better served having the commentary team be more generic in their lines, but have the ability to talk about more situations. This is something that also plagues 2k, and while both 2k and Madden have pretty good commentary, their unique lines and stories get old after the 1st and 2nd time, and when your commentary is built to show those lines/stories off, then it makes the entire commentary get stale quicker than it otherwise should.

Even 2k5 struggled with this as well when they had their voice actors have unique stories and lines for different situations. It lead to repetitiveness, and it actually is a reason I think 2k8 has the better commentary despite having less specific lines.

Here is an example of what EA does, it's not an exact EA line, but it shows what they try and do with the commentary.

"Here comes Cam Newton, Superman they call him. A national title winner at Auburn. Brandon, you're a big fan of Newton, aren't you?" and then they have a mini discussion on Cam Newton for a play or two completely missing out on the play by play and telling you something that gets extremely old after 3 or 4 games in your Panthers franchise because they say it every single time he comes out onto the field for the first drive.

While it sounds neat in theory that they have that kind of uniqueness to the lines that make the players feel real and that the commentary team has knowledge of the world your franchise exists in, that is all nullified by the sheer repetitiveness of lines like that.

The play by play also has plenty of unique lines that get old and stale because they are so unique and not generic. It would be better for the commentary team to have multiple generic lines they can say surrounding each player and situation.

For example, when Cam Newton comes onto the field they can say:

"Here comes Cam Newton, the former first round pick out of Auburn."

"Here is Newton, to this point he has X yards, Y TDs, and Z INTs. Then go on to say whether or not it is a good, average, or bad year."

"Here is Cam Newton, the X year vet out of Auburn."

These types of generic lines allow for them to change dynamically as the franchise goes on, they allow for some variability, and they are generic enough to where they don't stick out as being repetitive. When you turn on any football broadcast, you're going to hear those types of introductions for QB's over and over. They get straight to the point in a generic enough manner to not stick out near as much as the example line I gave earlier.

I'd much rather hear those 3 lines plus a few others repeated multiple times over my franchise over one unique line that doesn't update whether I am in year 1 or year 5 of my franchise.

Like I said, it sounds opposite to what you think EA should strive for, but if they went with more generic commentary lines for the play by play and color commentary, lines that sound perfectly fine and realistic to repeat versus extremely unique lines that get stale after 2 hears, then the commentary would immediately improve.

With their chemistry, the commentary team sounds solid. The only knocks I see on the commentary is typically about their unique lines. People constantly quote the dumb, unique lines and talk about how stale it gets and that's the main reason they mute the commentary. That, and EA being dumb enough to give them lines to record that break the 4th wall. That's a gigantic no-no.

Other issues with the unique lines is how they aren't set up to play correctly in context. Using modded gameplay on PC in my CPU vs CPU franchise, it plays out like a realistic NFL game. Each team runs 60-70 plays, only gets 300-400 yards on average, and there are plenty of punts like the real NFL. It's rather authentic for Madden. What gets extremely old is how the commentary has some unique lines to talk about that more gritty brand of authentic NFL football, but the lines are repeating constantly all game and give incorrect numbers.

I'm playing as Washington. Their offense isn't anything special. They punted on average 5 times per game last year despite running such a slow offense that ate up time limiting their number of punts. My offense is still not the greatest, but my defense in my franchise is one of the more talented ones in the league. This leads to a lot of my games being 19-13 type of games where the teams punt a lot, 3rd down conversions are scarce, and it's just overall low-scoring defensive battles.

This leads to the commentary struggling. Once you punt the ball 4 times, every subsequent punt leads to the commentary talking about how the punter has already punted it 4 times, here comes number 5, give him the bronze leg. You will hear that same exact line play for punt #5, punt #6, punt #7. If your offense is really struggling and you punt closer to 8 or 9 times, you will hear that same exact line about it being punt #5, up to 5 times per game.

This is another area where having completely unique lines is a no-no. Go generic. Have them literally record a line saying, "Here is -player X- <insert_player_name> out to punt for the -#x-
time of the game>" Then have another few generic lines that it could branch into with proper context that sound natural and do not get repetitive.

Do not tell me my punter deserves the bronze leg 5 times in a game. Simply say he has been busy today in 3-4 generic ways. That is much better.

Anyways, there's a book about the commentary team.

Here's a tl;dr that I probably should have just went with instead of typing up that novel.

tl;dr Make the commentary less unique, make it so much more generic and the ability to branch into more generic lines to reduce repetitiveness.</punt_number></insert_player_name>

Don’t forget when your on year 3 in franchise they will still talk about it being Cams first year as the pats qb at the beginning of ever game in 2023

[Agent89]

Re: Why Next-Gen Madden Can't Make the Same Mistakes All Over Again

The issue with the commentary in Madden is that EA tries to have too many unique lines. It sounds the opposite of how it should be, but when you strive to have so many unique lines that are distinct, it makes the commentary get stale quicker.

When you hear, "Chestnuts?", or the "Largo" lines each game, sometimes multiple times per game, those types of lines stick out and lose their luster much more quickly than going generic.

It sounds counterproductive, but EA would actually be better served having the commentary team be more generic in their lines, but have the ability to talk about more situations. This is something that also plagues 2k, and while both 2k and Madden have pretty good commentary, their unique lines and stories get old after the 1st and 2nd time, and when your commentary is built to show those lines/stories off, then it makes the entire commentary get stale quicker than it otherwise should.

Even 2k5 struggled with this as well when they had their voice actors have unique stories and lines for different situations. It lead to repetitiveness, and it actually is a reason I think 2k8 has the better commentary despite having less specific lines.

Here is an example of what EA does, it's not an exact EA line, but it shows what they try and do with the commentary.

"Here comes Cam Newton, Superman they call him. A national title winner at Auburn. Brandon, you're a big fan of Newton, aren't you?" and then they have a mini discussion on Cam Newton for a play or two completely missing out on the play by play and telling you something that gets extremely old after 3 or 4 games in your Panthers franchise because they say it every single time he comes out onto the field for the first drive.

While it sounds neat in theory that they have that kind of uniqueness to the lines that make the players feel real and that the commentary team has knowledge of the world your franchise exists in, that is all nullified by the sheer repetitiveness of lines like that.

The play by play also has plenty of unique lines that get old and stale because they are so unique and not generic. It would be better for the commentary team to have multiple generic lines they can say surrounding each player and situation.

For example, when Cam Newton comes onto the field they can say:

"Here comes Cam Newton, the former first round pick out of Auburn."

"Here is Newton, to this point he has X yards, Y TDs, and Z INTs. Then go on to say whether or not it is a good, average, or bad year."

"Here is Cam Newton, the X year vet out of Auburn."

These types of generic lines allow for them to change dynamically as the franchise goes on, they allow for some variability, and they are generic enough to where they don't stick out as being repetitive. When you turn on any football broadcast, you're going to hear those types of introductions for QB's over and over. They get straight to the point in a generic enough manner to not stick out near as much as the example line I gave earlier.

I'd much rather hear those 3 lines plus a few others repeated multiple times over my franchise over one unique line that doesn't update whether I am in year 1 or year 5 of my franchise.

Like I said, it sounds opposite to what you think EA should strive for, but if they went with more generic commentary lines for the play by play and color commentary, lines that sound perfectly fine and realistic to repeat versus extremely unique lines that get stale after 2 hears, then the commentary would immediately improve.

With their chemistry, the commentary team sounds solid. The only knocks I see on the commentary is typically about their unique lines. People constantly quote the dumb, unique lines and talk about how stale it gets and that's the main reason they mute the commentary. That, and EA being dumb enough to give them lines to record that break the 4th wall. That's a gigantic no-no.

Other issues with the unique lines is how they aren't set up to play correctly in context. Using modded gameplay on PC in my CPU vs CPU franchise, it plays out like a realistic NFL game. Each team runs 60-70 plays, only gets 300-400 yards on average, and there are plenty of punts like the real NFL. It's rather authentic for Madden. What gets extremely old is how the commentary has some unique lines to talk about that more gritty brand of authentic NFL football, but the lines are repeating constantly all game and give incorrect numbers.

I'm playing as Washington. Their offense isn't anything special. They punted on average 5 times per game last year despite running such a slow offense that ate up time limiting their number of punts. My offense is still not the greatest, but my defense in my franchise is one of the more talented ones in the league. This leads to a lot of my games being 19-13 type of games where the teams punt a lot, 3rd down conversions are scarce, and it's just overall low-scoring defensive battles.

This leads to the commentary struggling. Once you punt the ball 4 times, every subsequent punt leads to the commentary talking about how the punter has already punted it 4 times, here comes number 5, give him the bronze leg. You will hear that same exact line play for punt #5, punt #6, punt #7. If your offense is really struggling and you punt closer to 8 or 9 times, you will hear that same exact line about it being punt #5, up to 5 times per game.

This is another area where having completely unique lines is a no-no. Go generic. Have them literally record a line saying, "Here is -player X- <insert_player_name> out to punt for the -#x-
time of the game>" Then have another few generic lines that it could branch into with proper context that sound natural and do not get repetitive.

Do not tell me my punter deserves the bronze leg 5 times in a game. Simply say he has been busy today in 3-4 generic ways. That is much better.

Anyways, there's a book about the commentary team.

Here's a tl;dr that I probably should have just went with instead of typing up that novel.

tl;dr Make the commentary less unique, make it so much more generic and the ability to branch into more generic lines to reduce repetitiveness.</punt_number></insert_player_name>

I do agree to an extent. The unique lines though do come off more natural. EA should do both but definitely create a generic template for certain situation, especially those involving numerical or chronological data.

[canes21]

Re: Why Next-Gen Madden Can't Make the Same Mistakes All Over Again

The unique lines are voiced well, it's just that when you try and make things to unique they get repetitive quicker than something more generic. I don't think the commentary team says anything poorly, it's what EA has them say is the issue, and the lines they lack. A different approach is needed for the team to take the next step.

[Kanobi]

Re: Why Next-Gen Madden Can't Make the Same Mistakes All Over Again

I don't think Canes is asking for fewer unique lines of commentary in favor of more generic ones.

Instead it seems he is suggesting Tiburon implement the unique lines in a such a way that they are easily adaptable to the context of the game and the user's current franchise thus making them a LOT less repetitive and far more dynamic. And I agree this would be a tremendous boost to immersion.