Can someone explain sub specialists vs depth chart?

[SouthernWarrior]

More of a football question not madden one

If I have a 3-4 defense when exactly are my SubLB slotCB, Rush LE/RE/DT coming in and how does that affect players simulated reps if they are my #1 LE as the rush LE or my #1 MLB as my sub LB? Does the next person who backs him up just take his spot in the game in those spots then? It would seem depth is important in those cases

Same question for slot WR.. if I make my #1 wr my slot guy... is my #3 WR going to get more reps? I find whoever I put as my specialists always have the best stats out of any WR/DB/PH etc but it does not translate to the Dline.

Also confused on when my starting OLB rush the passer as DE’s but are not showing up as specialists?? Thanks

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Re: Can someone explain sub specialists vs depth chart?

Its generally easiest to treat them like two separate depth charts. The traditional depth charts cover "traditional" defenses (4 or fewer DBs). Aside from a few oddball formations like 4-3 Wide 9, this holds.

Once you send out the 5th DB, it starts using the sub packages (sublb, slcb, rre, rle, rdt) and overrides whatever you had on the traditional ones. So if you put your top DB as the top slot corner, he'll play the slot and it will move everyone up the normal depth chart one space.

Coach adjustments take priority over that, so if you start moving guys around in game then it will have ripple effects as well.

[SouthernWarrior]

Re: Can someone explain sub specialists vs depth chart?

Its generally easiest to treat them like two separate depth charts. The traditional depth charts cover "traditional" defenses (4 or fewer DBs). Aside from a few oddball formations like 4-3 Wide 9, this holds.

Once you send out the 5th DB, it starts using the sub packages (sublb, slcb, rre, rle, rdt) and overrides whatever you had on the traditional ones. So if you put your top DB as the top slot corner, he'll play the slot and it will move everyone up the normal depth chart one space.

Coach adjustments take priority over that, so if you start moving guys around in game then it will have ripple effects as well.

So essentially... if you're playing your top rated guys as "specialists"... you're going to need pretty strong starter worthy backups then, no?

Would someone be able to give an estimate % on average how often "backups" play in terms of reps when your top rated guys are your specialists? I'm swimming games so pretty much at the mercy of my depth charts and playbooks.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Re: Can someone explain sub specialists vs depth chart?

So essentially... if you're playing your top rated guys as "specialists"... you're going to need pretty strong starter worthy backups then, no?

Well if you are putting your top DB in the slot then naturally your #3 corner is going to be set up outside now. It's really about where you want to deploy your guys to get the best matchups. One key use of the rush depth charts is to shuffle around your DL to limit the effect of blocker resistance. If you have a top RE, you may want him on the left for passing downs for that reason.

Would someone be able to give an estimate % on average how often "backups" play in terms of reps when your top rated guys are your specialists? I'm swimming games so pretty much at the mercy of my depth charts and playbooks.

It depends on how many nickel+ defenses your AI is calling.

[OJsakila]

Re: Can someone explain sub specialists vs depth chart?

Well if you are putting your top DB in the slot then naturally your #3 corner is going to be set up outside now. It's really about where you want to deploy your guys to get the best matchups. One key use of the rush depth charts is to shuffle around your DL to limit the effect of blocker resistance. If you have a top RE, you may want him on the left for passing downs for that reason.



It depends on how many nickel+ defenses your AI is calling.

Solid info. Thanks. +1

[SouthernWarrior]

Re: Can someone explain sub specialists vs depth chart?

Well if you are putting your top DB in the slot then naturally your #3 corner is going to be set up outside now. It's really about where you want to deploy your guys to get the best matchups. One key use of the rush depth charts is to shuffle around your DL to limit the effect of blocker resistance. If you have a top RE, you may want him on the left for passing downs for that reason.



It depends on how many nickel+ defenses your AI is calling.

Can you explain this to me, I don't get this? Why does a top RE move to LE on passing downs then?

My scheme is a 3-4 storm so everyone other than my MLB (pass coverage) and CB's/Safeties (Zone) are aiming to be "Speed Rusher" specialists.

I think I read somewhere that RRE and RLE serve different purposes though?

Also in a 3-4 storm (using the Ravens defense) how often is a nickel being called estimated?

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Re: Can someone explain sub specialists vs depth chart?

Can you explain this to me, I don't get this? Why does a top RE move to LE on passing downs then?

Are you playing 21? The offensive linemen have a resistance bar which goes up every time a DL attempts a move. So, on first down you come out in a regular 4-3. The RE (Let's say Jerry Hughes) goes outside on a spin for example. On 2nd down, you come out again in a 4-3, the LT now has a point of resistance outside against Hughes specifically. Now it's 3rd down and you come out in Nickel with Hughes at RLE. Now he is on the opposite side, lining up against the RT and the RT does not have resistance points against him, making Hughes' move more likely to succeed.


If you keep Hughes in the same spot all game, the offensive lineman will eventually develop a ton of resistance and start to shut him down. The resistance system encourages you to sub guys in and move them around.

My scheme is a 3-4 storm so everyone other than my MLB (pass coverage) and CB's/Safeties (Zone) are aiming to be "Speed Rusher" specialists.

I think I read somewhere that RRE and RLE serve different purposes though?

I can't really speak to franchise, I am an online guy exclusively, but maybe I can explain this a different way.


Let's say that on First down, you come out in a 3-4 Solid with no coaches adjustments against regular I-Form Close.

Imagine we're looking from the usual camera view behind the offense, your guys will line up like so


#2CB - #1FS - #1SS - #1CB


#1ROLB - #2MLB - #1MLB - #1LOLB


#1RE - #1DT -#1LE


Ok, now imagine it's 3rd down and you want to come out in 3-3-5, now it looks like this:


#2CB - #1SLCB -#1FS - #1SS - #1CB


#3SUBLB - #1SUBLB -#2SUBLB


#1RRE - #1RDT -#1RLE


So you can see how the back four of the secondary are still drawing off the original depth charts but the front seven are now pulling from the specialist depth charts.


Two important notes: 1) specialist depth charts have priority. So if I put in Micah Hyde (my #1 FS) in as a Slot Corner, he'll play Slot Corner whenever its on the field and my #2 FS will come off the bench to play FS. The lineman specialist packages AFAIK have priority over the SUBLB, same deal.



2) Specialist depth charts are activated by the formation you pick, not game situation. So if you come out in a 4-3 on 3rd and 20 for whatever reason, it's going to roll out your normal lineup even if that's your run-stopping group.

[SouthernWarrior]

Re: Can someone explain sub specialists vs depth chart?

Are you playing 21? The offensive linemen have a resistance bar which goes up every time a DL attempts a move. So, on first down you come out in a regular 4-3. The RE (Let's say Jerry Hughes) goes outside on a spin for example. On 2nd down, you come out again in a 4-3, the LT now has a point of resistance outside against Hughes specifically. Now it's 3rd down and you come out in Nickel with Hughes at RLE. Now he is on the opposite side, lining up against the RT and the RT does not have resistance points against him, making Hughes' move more likely to succeed.


If you keep Hughes in the same spot all game, the offensive lineman will eventually develop a ton of resistance and start to shut him down. The resistance system encourages you to sub guys in and move them around.





I can't really speak to franchise, I am an online guy exclusively, but maybe I can explain this a different way.


Let's say that on First down, you come out in a 3-4 Solid with no coaches adjustments against regular I-Form Close.

Imagine we're looking from the usual camera view behind the offense, your guys will line up like so


#2CB - #1FS - #1SS - #1CB


#1ROLB - #2MLB - #1MLB - #1LOLB


#1RE - #1DT -#1LE


Ok, now imagine it's 3rd down and you want to come out in 3-3-5, now it looks like this:


#2CB - #1SLCB -#1FS - #1SS - #1CB


#3SUBLB - #1SUBLB -#2SUBLB


#1RRE - #1RDT -#1RLE


So you can see how the back four of the secondary are still drawing off the original depth charts but the front seven are now pulling from the specialist depth charts.


Two important notes: 1) specialist depth charts have priority. So if I put in Micah Hyde (my #1 FS) in as a Slot Corner, he'll play Slot Corner whenever its on the field and my #2 FS will come off the bench to play FS. The lineman specialist packages AFAIK have priority over the SUBLB, same deal.



2) Specialist depth charts are activated by the formation you pick, not game situation. So if you come out in a 4-3 on 3rd and 20 for whatever reason, it's going to roll out your normal lineup even if that's your run-stopping group.

---
I'm playing purely simulation on Madden 21. So I adjust my scheme, depth chart and just sim to the next week (not on slow/fast mode just from the franchise main screen). So not sure if your 1st paragraph works on simulation mode.

Thanks for the help, it makes more sense now.

Which positions if your using your top specialists would you say need the most depth then? Sub LB (So MLB most likely and possible safeties) and CB?? In the 3-3-5 you put I had no idea it's possible you would have all 3 of your Specialist SUBLB in the game at once. So then the starting ROLB and LOLB aren't playing then for that snap?

[Richie71]

Re: Can someone explain sub specialists vs depth chart?

If your LOLB and ROLB are listed at DE or Sub-LB, they will appear in your su packages.


The most common nickel alignment change from a 3-4 is to a 4-2 that lines up with the OLBs at DE, the best two pash rush lineman in the middle (usually taking out your nose tackle) and then your same two ILBs, if they can cover.

[SouthernWarrior]

Re: Can someone explain sub specialists vs depth chart?

If your LOLB and ROLB are listed at DE or Sub-LB, they will appear in your su packages.


The most common nickel alignment change from a 3-4 is to a 4-2 that lines up with the OLBs at DE, the best two pash rush lineman in the middle (usually taking out your nose tackle) and then your same two ILBs, if they can cover.

so in the 4-2 instance.. the backups playing as "starters" in this scenario would most likely be: the backup OLB's at LOLB and ROLB who are now the new "starters"? And the two initial MLB's (from the 3-4) are in this play too or no?

[Richie71]

Re: Can someone explain sub specialists vs depth chart?

so in the 4-2 instance.. the backups playing as "starters" in this scenario would most likely be: the backup OLB's at LOLB and ROLB who are now the new "starters"? And the two initial MLB's (from the 3-4) are in this play too or no?

4-2 is a sub package. So ignore the base depth chart for those positions.
In 4-2, your DEs are the players listed as sub-DE, and the DTs are the players listed as sub-DT. The LBs are the players listed as sub-LB. You must forget the base depth chart for DL and LB when looking at your nickle and dime lineups.

[PhillyPhanatic14]

Re: Can someone explain sub specialists vs depth chart?

Would be great if someone could explain this to the Madden team as well. If you try to play a Player Franchise with a DE or DT you can't get on the field in any formation other than base 3-4/4-3 & special teams even if you're the only player at those positions. The CPU will put OLB's in there before allowing the user to play in specialist packages.

[burth179]

Re: Can someone explain sub specialists vs depth chart?

Can you explain this to me, I don't get this? Why does a top RE move to LE on passing downs then?

My scheme is a 3-4 storm so everyone other than my MLB (pass coverage) and CB's/Safeties (Zone) are aiming to be "Speed Rusher" specialists.

I think I read somewhere that RRE and RLE serve different purposes though?

Also in a 3-4 storm (using the Ravens defense) how often is a nickel being called estimated?

I assume you are simulating the games since if not you would be calling the defense yourself. Looking at downs played over many simulations I'd estimate you are in Nickel/Dime far more often than base defense, probably 70% or more of the time. Your sub package depth chart is really your base these days (which is true in real football as well).

In a 3 4 typically my DT comes off the field and my 2 de are sub DT. My OLB are my edge rushers. But depending on personnel that can be slightly different (maybe one of my DE comes off instead)

[SouthernWarrior]

Re: Can someone explain sub specialists vs depth chart?

I assume you are simulating the games since if not you would be calling the defense yourself. Looking at downs played over many simulations I'd estimate you are in Nickel/Dime far more often than base defense, probably 70% or more of the time. Your sub package depth chart is really your base these days (which is true in real football as well).

In a 3 4 typically my DT comes off the field and my 2 de are sub DT. My OLB are my edge rushers. But depending on personnel that can be slightly different (maybe one of my DE comes off instead)

Yes I am simulating games. Thank you for that.

I play a 3-4.. had no idea in that scenario the two Sub DT would then become the "starters".

[jfsolo]

Re: Can someone explain sub specialists vs depth chart?

I don't know how well it works in simmed games, but sub packages and formations subs allow you to get really creative.

For my upcoming season I've decided to turn my 3-3-5 set to a 5-1-5 package, 3 DT, and 2 power rushing DE replacing the outside LBs with my best run stopping LB in the middle with the normal Nickle DB package behind them.

I have no idea how it's going to work, but I'll start off using it sparingly and see how well it functions.