Rubberband AI??

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  • IlluminatusUIUC
    MVP
    • Jan 2010
    • 2667

    #16
    Re: Rubberband AI??

    Originally posted by CM Hooe
    If we are going to ask someone in a position of knowledge a question, it is intellectually dishonest to then immediately reject the answer we are given because we don’t like the answer we received. We don’t know what the code looks like, EA does. If they say there’s no rubberbanding, then there’s no rubberbanding.

    TBH, I think this might be a faulty assumption. At this point, Madden is code on top of code on top of code for years and generally after that many iterations there can be legacy effects or interactions not fully understood by the current teams.



    There are gameplay elements designed to give teams a boost when they are down on the scoreboard, or to penalize rattled players. The "Clutch" trait that many players have is one example. They also have the confusion effects assigned to the Momentum system or traits like "Drops Open Passes". In the past there have also been "composure" ratings for players as well, which may be back in some form.


    Then when you look at how many basic struggles EA has with complex systems like blocking AI and fatigue, or even simple things like correctly assigning uniforms vs. Dallas or recording the scores of franchise games, it's not clear that EA is fully in command of their product.
    Bills, Sabres, Illini, Cubs, basically any team that abuses its fanbase and I'm there.

    Comment

    • Broncos86
      Orange and Blue!
      • May 2009
      • 5505

      #17
      Re: Rubberband AI??

      Originally posted by IlluminatusUIUC
      TBH, I think this might be a faulty assumption. At this point, Madden is code on top of code on top of code for years and generally after that many iterations there can be legacy effects or interactions not fully understood by the current teams.
      But is it? What IS the status of the code? How much legacy code is in there? How much of it was removed for the next gen game? Did they re-write much of it?

      We don't know, so it's dangerous to assume.

      Comment

      • PhillyPhanatic14
        MVP
        • Jun 2015
        • 4825

        #18
        Re: Rubberband AI??

        Originally posted by Broncos86
        But is it? What IS the status of the code? How much legacy code is in there? How much of it was removed for the next gen game? Did they re-write much of it?

        We don't know, so it's dangerous to assume.

        This is a thread about assumptions lol. We can't pretend like we know there's no code in the next gen games for rubberband AI either cuz it's not on PC.

        Comment

        • phillyfan23
          MVP
          • Feb 2005
          • 2301

          #19
          Re: Rubberband AI??

          I think we all should just keep an eye on this moving forward and just share game scores whether in play now or CFM. And when a game situation presents itself report back to the thread, thats what I will be doing so there is some actual data behind it.

          This is one of the first things I check in ANY sports game. For example pes 2021 i checked in exhibition mode that there is no such rubberbanding at all. When the cpu is down say 2-0 with 30 mins to play, the game shows that they changed their strategy to full attack mode.

          At this point the chance of another goal happening increases dramatically, because the cpu is selling out. But that next goal could come from me making the game 3-0 because their defense pushes forward. Or they could make it 2-1. But there are ways to combat this. It feels right, and thats how madden should feel like.

          When the cpu is down 2/3 scores in the 4th, they should sell out and take high risk passes. Chances of a score/turnover pick 6 should increase to benefit either side. I havent seen that yet in a balanced manner on madden 22.


          Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

          Comment

          • IlluminatusUIUC
            MVP
            • Jan 2010
            • 2667

            #20
            Re: Rubberband AI??

            Originally posted by Broncos86
            But is it? What IS the status of the code? How much legacy code is in there? How much of it was removed for the next gen game? Did they re-write much of it?
            The majority of it is carried over, they obviously did not rewrite the game from scratch for next gen.

            We don't know, so it's dangerous to assume.
            LOL What danger am I courting here?
            Bills, Sabres, Illini, Cubs, basically any team that abuses its fanbase and I'm there.

            Comment

            • Hooe
              Hall Of Fame
              • Aug 2002
              • 21554

              #21
              Rubberband AI??

              Originally posted by PhillyPhanatic14
              This is a thread about assumptions lol. We can't pretend like we know there's no code in the next gen games for rubberband AI either cuz it's not on PC.

              People have been crying wolf about losing games to comeback code in every version of Madden for literally decades now. I find it incredibly curious that the one concrete example we can actually investigate for any bread crumbs of any sort of rubber banding is suddenly invalid or immediately dismissible. Like I said at the top - I think people are arguing in bad faith here.

              If someone wants to prove comeback code exists in Madden - again, EA has consistently stated it’s not there - we are going need more concrete evidence that something nefarious is actually going on and not just scattered anecdotes about people blowing large leads. The burden of proof is on those people to prove EA wrong, not the other way around.

              Comment

              • ForUntoOblivionSoar∞
                MVP
                • Dec 2009
                • 4682

                #22
                Re: Rubberband AI??

                Originally posted by CM Hooe
                The Madden devs have maintained for a long time that there is no rubber band AI in the game.

                Any number of things could be the catalyst for a CPU comeback, but some starting questions:

                - are you aggressively rotating in backup defensive linemen for a couple plays when starters exhaust their block shedding / pass rush moves points? The same pool is used for both block shedding and pass rushing. If your DLs don’t have any rush move points before a play starts, you are going to get run over. If your DLs don’t have any rush move points and you don’t blitz, the CPU QB will find an open receiver. Most people don’t rotate linemen on their own because the in game substitution interface is clunky.

                - are you mixing up your play calls, like are you really getting into your entire playbook? I am under the impression that, particularly on All Madden, the CPU will start aggressively calling counters to repeat play calls even after a small number of uses.
                It's most likely fatigue and play-calling.
                Originally posted by Therebelyell626
                I am going to create a team called "the happy town fundament rapscallions" and hurt your already diminishing image
                https://forums.operationsports.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2049813056

                Last edited by your mom; 06-06-2006 at 6:06 PM.

                Comment

                • ForUntoOblivionSoar∞
                  MVP
                  • Dec 2009
                  • 4682

                  #23
                  Re: Rubberband AI??

                  Originally posted by Broncos86
                  But is it? What IS the status of the code? How much legacy code is in there? How much of it was removed for the next gen game? Did they re-write much of it?

                  We don't know, so it's dangerous to assume.
                  While that's true, PC gamers do have access to a lot of the same things designers do. A great deal of things — far more than the sliders even come close to addressing — and no one has ever stumbled upon such a thing.
                  Originally posted by Therebelyell626
                  I am going to create a team called "the happy town fundament rapscallions" and hurt your already diminishing image
                  https://forums.operationsports.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2049813056

                  Last edited by your mom; 06-06-2006 at 6:06 PM.

                  Comment

                  • phillyfan23
                    MVP
                    • Feb 2005
                    • 2301

                    #24
                    Re: Rubberband AI??

                    Originally posted by CM Hooe
                    People have been crying wolf about losing games to comeback code in every version of Madden for literally decades now. I find it incredibly curious that the one concrete example we can actually investigate for any bread crumbs of any sort of rubber banding is suddenly invalid or immediately dismissible. Like I said at the top - I think people are arguing in bad faith here.

                    If someone wants to prove comeback code exists in Madden - again, EA has consistently stated it’s not there - we are going need more concrete evidence that something nefarious is actually going on and not just scattered anecdotes about people blowing large leads. The burden of proof is on those people to prove EA wrong, not the other way around.


                    You cant exactly prove anything without the actual code in your hands. So thats a moot point, all we can do is analyze with data here thats pretty much it and let people decide with said data.

                    If say out of 20 games where there was a 3 score difference between user/cpu losing or winning and only 1 game out of those 20 maintained/extended that lead, while 19 games all ended within 10 points or less, that should paint a much clearer picture.

                    I remember MVP 04 where left handed hitters rarely hit homeruns due to a top spin bug by lefty batters. EA denied any kind of bug/error that makes lefties pretty much uselesw for homeruns. But the next year it was fixed and this was proven by coders that got a hold of the game on the pc version if im not mistaken.

                    So EA denying a point such as comeback code doesnt guarantee anything.




                    Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

                    Comment

                    • Hooe
                      Hall Of Fame
                      • Aug 2002
                      • 21554

                      #25
                      Re: Rubberband AI??

                      Originally posted by phillyfan23
                      You cant exactly prove anything without the actual code in your hands.
                      Neither can you or anyone else making the accusation that the Madden AI is cheating them out of wins with rubber-banding. That’s my entire point.

                      If you want to prove something as true, you need evidence to definitively prove the opposite of the thing is false.

                      What we have established as facts so far: the company that owns the code says there’s no rubber-banding, and PC data miners to-date have never found any evidence of rubber-banding.

                      Find concrete proof that EA is lying to its users or find something the data miners missed and maybe let’s have a conversation then.

                      Comment

                      • PhillyPhanatic14
                        MVP
                        • Jun 2015
                        • 4825

                        #26
                        Re: Rubberband AI??

                        Originally posted by CM Hooe
                        Neither can you or anyone else making the accusation that the Madden AI is cheating them out of wins with rubber-banding. That’s my entire point.

                        If you want to prove something as true, you need evidence to definitively prove the opposite of the thing is false.

                        What we have established as facts so far: the company that owns the code says there’s no rubber-banding, and PC data miners to-date have never found any evidence of rubber-banding.

                        Find concrete proof that EA is lying to its users or find something the data miners missed and maybe let’s have a conversation then.

                        We can have a conversation now. Nobody is calling EA liars. Nobody is calling PC data miners liars. We're sharing our experience... on a Madden forum... which is totally fine to do. There's nobody going after EA or going after anyone. Can we just move on and allow people to share their experiences?

                        Comment

                        • mercalnd
                          MVP
                          • Oct 2004
                          • 4261

                          #27
                          Re: Rubberband AI??

                          Originally posted by CM Hooe
                          People have been crying wolf about losing games to comeback code in every version of Madden for literally decades now. I find it incredibly curious that the one concrete example we can actually investigate for any bread crumbs of any sort of rubber banding is suddenly invalid or immediately dismissible. Like I said at the top - I think people are arguing in bad faith here.
                          I typically believe that comeback ai talk in sports games is triggered by other factors such as fatigue, increased urgency/aggressiveness on the part of the losing team, etc.

                          So I pretty much agree that the is no rubberbanding. That said, all of your replies seem to be ignoring the fact that this thread is not just about users complaining about blowing a big lead but also many users are stating that thay are mounting big comebacks as the game seems to become easier once they are down by 3 scores as if the difficulty level was lowered behind the scenes.

                          I tend to believe that recurring scenario is due to the AI essentially going too conservative with a big lead but I don't think the discussion should be reduced to people complaining about losing.

                          Comment

                          • Qcsports4
                            Rookie
                            • Feb 2017
                            • 165

                            #28
                            Re: Rubberband AI??

                            Originally posted by CM Hooe
                            Racing game developers, especially of arcade racing games like Mario Kart, Burnout, and Need For Speed, pretty candidly admit their games have rubberbanding. Really the only console racer that doesn’t rubberband is Forza, which uses machine learning to power all their CPU racers via the Drivatar system.

                            That aside - I think it’s quite an act of bad faith to just assume that EA has been lying outright to people who have asked them the same pointed question many times over something like a decade.

                            If we are to assume EA wouldn’t give us a straight answer on rubberbanding anyway, why bother even asking the question? Or any question at all?

                            If we are going to ask someone in a position of knowledge a question, it is intellectually dishonest to then immediately reject the answer we are given because we don’t like the answer we received. We don’t know what the code looks like, EA does. If they say there’s no rubberbanding, then there’s no rubberbanding.
                            There may be no rubber rubberbanding A.I. but,there is and has been what I call the "E.A. First Game Bug". What that is,and it's occurred in the Madden series,NHL series and sometimes in the NCAA series as well,is when you play your first game after powering on,the CPU team plays faster than yours,gets all the loose pucks,go up and down the field while your team can barely get anything done. I've experienced it many times and I know I have because after playing the game when it's doing that,I quit and restart the game and the CPU team plays like how I have the sliders set up. Doesn't happen all the time but,it does occur.

                            Comment

                            • Broncos86
                              Orange and Blue!
                              • May 2009
                              • 5505

                              #29
                              Re: Rubberband AI??

                              Originally posted by Qcsports4
                              There may be no rubber rubberbanding A.I. but,there is and has been what I call the "E.A. First Game Bug". What that is,and it's occurred in the Madden series,NHL series and sometimes in the NCAA series as well,is when you play your first game after powering on,the CPU team plays faster than yours,gets all the loose pucks,go up and down the field while your team can barely get anything done. I've experienced it many times and I know I have because after playing the game when it's doing that,I quit and restart the game and the CPU team plays like how I have the sliders set up. Doesn't happen all the time but,it does occur.
                              Having played over a decade of FIFA, NHL, and Madden, I cannot say I have ever experienced this.

                              Comment

                              • timhere1970
                                MVP
                                • Sep 2013
                                • 1810

                                #30
                                Re: Rubberband AI??

                                I personally think there is some rubberbanding in the game. At least some keep it close coding. Then once you get up by three scores it breaks lose. There used to be dynamic difficulty in the game which could be left over. Not here to take shots at EA but there is two decade old code in this game and I doubt anybody at EA knows it all. They also say there is no special powers for the cpu in the last 2 minutes of the half or game but I have played a lot of madden over the years and way over half of the passing yards I have given up are within the two minutes warnings. Just my two cents and I realize I could just be wrong.

                                Comment

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