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Re: Madden NFL 10 Blog: A Deeper Look Into Pass Blocking
Sorry I am late to the show. Little time today.
LB, I KNOW the play you speak of, LOL. I HATED that play. Was a high percentage completion on that play. Just never realised the reason why it was successful.
I am not gonna doubt the linemen being tied to the QB because I have seen linemen/lb do some strange stuff. I have also noticed that the better a LB/DL speed was and if they had the sack master/pass rush ability they took better angles at the QB's.
So I think player ratings played a part to some degree in what we were seeing happen.
Thats said, You can get outside the pocket pretty quick from shot gun with the right QB in the shotgun like you said.
Here is what I think needs to be discussed and looked at:
Against a team thats not noted for having a pass rush, shouldnt I be able to get outside the pocket ? Shouldnt that team be made to have to take chances more and have to blitz to keep me in the pocket ?
You are right in the linemen need to get up field faster, but it should only be a impacting event when the dline is good or a massive blitz is coming. If any dline can pressure the QB without having to blitz then we have the madden "all teams play alike" problem all over again.
I think this is something that 2K did right. If you wanted the madhouse crazy pressure just from your dline without any blitzing, you had to invest your gold silver bronze talent pool to get linemen.
Most know I rolled with a studd front 4 and generic backfield for most of my online teams and I gave up alot of yards on the ground because of my scrub LB's and safties, but the dline made them look great on passing downs because of the pressure they put on the QB.
None of the Devs are talking balance, none of them are talking about what you are trying to get fixed.
All I am seeing is a natural part of football being turned into a feature gimmick...Pro Tak. Ok, we can witness 9 men pile up. Cool,
now what about the meat of the game.
How many defensive fronts can I come out in ?
How can I disquise my coverage pre snap ?
How many line stunts can I call that actually stop certain offensive line strategies ? Dont just give me the ability to shift my men and it means little to nothing strategy wise.
Will people actually have to game plan teams dominate players ?
(I want that fear of players in Madden that people had of Earl Campbell in 2K)
Can my offense come out in one formation then switch to another ? (I use this to try and get people out of certain defenses or cause them to play certain defenses when needed)
I am starting to get nervous about what Madden 2010 is gonna ultimately be because I aint hearing seeing alot of football things being discussed by any of the devs. I am just seeing Pro-tak marketing. While I am getting stoned on pro-tak the buzz is being killed by Work In Progress videos and no footage of how its gonna actually impact how we all play each other.
Long pretty animations that are made to bring about functionality in a game that breeds deep strategy is good.
Short un natural looking animations that have no game impacting, strategy inducing effect is just smoke and mirror, lets get the money and run for another year "features"
But we will see 8/14Comment
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Re: Madden NFL 10 Blog: A Deeper Look Into Pass Blocking
^^^
I have heard some rumblings from the developers about the rating spread and how that affects gameplanning. I even remember LBzrule talking about how his Ravens defensive stars really stood out and had a significant affect on the outcome of many plays.
If that's the case, we will ideally get some of the feel we get when we play legends on APF. It's necessary, because once you've played football with strategy that correllates to real life (at least somewhat) it'll be impossible to go to something else.
I'd be very interested in reading what measures are took to balance the game. Football games should be treated like strategy games... balancing different strategies and concepts to make the game have hard and soft counters... just like real football and other strategy games. Add in the element of surprise and voila... you'd have a game that'd be hard to put down for the cerebral player.Xbox Live Gamertag: CreatineKasey
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Re: Madden NFL 10 Blog: A Deeper Look Into Pass Blocking
Ok, now I'm going to have to disagree. I played several games tonight and paused to watch the line play on it, as well as the blitzing LBs. The LBs are definitely keyed in on the QB (and not their lane), but I don't see them making their cuts/slants based on the QBs motion. Their choice of angle is random as far as I can tell as is when they determine to cut. Sometimes it's before the QB comes to a stop, sometimes it's before. It's all over the place.
One other thing regarding the blocking that's going on in APF2K8 that I failed to mention earlier with regards to the example Ian used in his blog; selecting the blocked player and performing a reach tackle could have gotten hands on the runner. Even with that said, Ian's point still stands, the block kept the defensive player in the blocking animation where their only choice was to perform a reach tackle (the only branch in Madden terms I guess), and prohibiting them from simply turning around getting off the block and running up field after the runner.Comment
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Re: Madden NFL 10 Blog: A Deeper Look Into Pass Blocking
Tomb I agree with you that it should be about talent in some respects. But I don't think that should negate a pocket or guys getting up the field, it should simply diminish what they can do once they get up the field. The Chiefs were one of the worse teams last year in getting to the QB. But that does not mean that Tamba Hali is slow up the field and cannot run the arc. He was pretty decent when Jared Allen was opposite of him. So I think the still should get up the field, but just be diminished in what he can do once he gets up there, UNLESS there is someone on the other side.
This is what I'm not too sure about All Pro. You mention having to stack your Dline if you want crazy pressure from it. I disagree with this. I've had several teams where I only had 1 Dlineman and he would sometimes dominate, 5 sack games, and sometimes he did not do much.
As far as defensive fronts I'm big on those, and hoping we get a few more. As far as fearing a back like Earl Campbell, I'll just say it this way, the CD build needed a lot of tuning. While I loved the game, it was 2k4 ish with respect to RB's, with Jacobs being "Ricky Williams like." I don't think you want that. I'm not sure I mind it too much as long as I get the defensive fronts I need.Comment
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Re: Madden NFL 10 Blog: A Deeper Look Into Pass Blocking
You might be right. But I'm not sure it is as random as being made out. I had several replays saved on my HD where this type of BS occurs (namely) where a backer would have a lane and just completely abandon it for no reason whatsoever (that doesn't sound random to me, that sounds programmatic). Secondly, I think the biggest evidence of the DL being tied to the QB in 2k is when you get a DT that gets a free run at the QB (when he is in the gun or from under center). You will notice the the DT once he breaks through, rather than running AT the QB, he will run down and turn and sack the QB (what Kanobi and I used to call the L blitz route). And worse of all, sometimes he will run right by him while looking at him (as the QB is dropping).Comment
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Re: Madden NFL 10 Blog: A Deeper Look Into Pass Blocking
I'm not arguing that they abandon their lanes. They do it all the time, and for no apparent reason (one of the very frustrating aspect of APF2K8's blitzing game). What I couldn't see when watching the replays was a consistent pattern of them doing so based on the QB's actions (such as when the QB came to a stop). It was my understanding that was your point, that the LB's abandoned their lanes when a QB stopped in their drop back. Yet when I wached the replays, the guys would makes their cuts in/out (either into their lane, or away from it) at random times. I did not see a consistent pattern with regards to when it occurred.Comment
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Re: Madden NFL 10 Blog: A Deeper Look Into Pass Blocking
Like I said in my previous post, I'm not arguing about the bad path, but in LB's video example he doesn't target the LG, he' just chooses a lane that takes him in that general direction (actually to the right of the guard). It's only when he cuts back in, towads the QB that he comes directly in contact with the guard. His path is not directly towards the LG as though he is keyed in on him.Comment
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Re: Madden NFL 10 Blog: A Deeper Look Into Pass Blocking
Gotcha. And I admit, it may not be as pronounced as I'm making it, although, that's what I was told. I think a good test for it is to do this if you get a chance. Call fan stunt against 3 step, 5 step drop, and manual 1 step drop from under center and from the gun (from the gun do a no step drop, make the QB stand still) and see if the Dline remains in their pass rush lanes.Comment
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Re: Madden NFL 10 Blog: A Deeper Look Into Pass Blocking
Last night, I was only watching the LBs, I didn't pay attention to the Lineman so please realize the info above only relates to the LBs. I'll have to watch the DLineman closely next time I play. I always felt they followed their lane based on memory, primarily due to things like the DE Twist glitch (where the DLine was expecting them at a very specific point). However, I know there are times when the OLine/DLine gets messed up somehow and a DLiner just comes straight through. Usually when I see this behavior, it's because the Center/Guard combo (both of them) decided to move to far to the right/left letting a DT come though untouched. I have never broke it down though and tried to determine the cause of their strange behaviour.
This is OT, but while testing last night I got a botched Punt snap animation where the snap goes over the punters head. Only the 3rd time it's ever happened, and I turned on the Hava and recorded it. So I'll have to post it on YouTube later today. Just one of those rare events you almost never, ever see.Last edited by Valdarez; 05-15-2009, 10:25 AM.Comment
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Re: Madden NFL 10 Blog: A Deeper Look Into Pass Blocking
One thing that I would like to see is a trade off of d linemen. the ends tend to go wide but the interior will often work with the center holding back the DT's trading them off to each other.Comment
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Re: Madden NFL 10 Blog: A Deeper Look Into Pass Blocking
You are right here. The context I am speaking to is you need some talent in the front 4. I went talent all the way across with my squads. I am not advocating you need all 4 to be studs to get pressure on the QB. I think you do need at least 1 player noted for being a disruptive force on your dline if thats all you are sending to get pressure on the QB.
Now look at it from a strategic point of view. Its easy for me as a offensive coordinator to negate 1 disruptive defensive lineman I only have to have 1 stud offensive lineman to negate him, or double him with pass blocking scheme or keep in one HB or the TE to help.
The more studs you have on the dline the more of a problem you create for the offense to try and block them all. In 2K8 yes, you could have a game where 1 lineman could cause havoc, but it also could be negated with the right line calls/personel/pass block hot routes.
I dont want anymore football games created where the offense or the defense can do something that allows them to unbalance the game in such a way it cannot be countered or allows them to negate the fact the got a scrub/scrubs playing that should not allow them to run their squad that way.
Example: My 2K8 team of 4 star linemen and a all generic LB core and CB's and Safetys.
I got punished by teams with great backs and pretty much had to call plays that sold out to the run to stop them, opening me up to pass plays deep down field. Thats the price I had to pay for not having enough talent to stop the elite RB's in the game.
However if you did not run, or did not have a stud RB, I could sit back in coverage without having to send anyone on the blitz. My dline rarely gave anyone time to go deep, and if I called the right plays my defense of scrubs did reasonably well at stopping the pass. Which also varied with the level of the WR's I was facing.
2k8 was not perfect but it was/is the most balanced football game we have ever had. The Madden gang gotta do something besides fudge the player ratings/jack around with the game speed(like last year) to try and emmulate the balance 2K8 has.
I dont expect the Madden only ballers to see things from the perspective of guys who play 2K football. They have not had the stuff in madden we enjoy in 2K8. I do expect the Madden Devs to be at least thinking, We gotta bring our game up to that level to please the guys who have had these things and want and improvement on what 2K8 has done.
To the purely Madden guys any improvement is gonna send them into nirvana. The 2K vets need something to look forward to in Madden. What are they gonna do for us ?Comment
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