Defensive Line Play in Madden / APF2K8

[Tito78]

Re: Defensive Line Play in Madden / APF2K8

Madden still not seeing 2k8 in the oline dept despite the improvements. Getting better but not quite there.

Did you go to community day ?

[project_mist]

Re: Defensive Line Play in Madden / APF2K8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnC-7TVmv78&feature=channel

O-line on a run play, different angles.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68RfiSbFrfI&feature=channel

Same play, full speed cinematic.

Discuss.

[NYG 5]

Re: Defensive Line Play in Madden / APF2K8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnC-7...eature=channel

O-line on a run play, different angles.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68RfiSbFrfI&feature=channel

Same play, full speed cinematic.

Discuss.

pshh, didn't you know all pro wasn't fun? LOL

[JHova1982]

Re: Defensive Line Play in Madden / APF2K8

If Madden isn't far off, I'm not sure what it's close to. If you watch, there is no pocket, guys stand up and pretty much react to anything in their general area, moving out of their lanes, or back towards the QB (the squishing effect I mentioned earlier).

Regardless of the on field execution, the one thing that truly separates the games is APF2K8's ability for players to call their DLine play before their actual play. A proper DLine play can stop a run by plugging a gap, or setup a hot blitz by opening up a lane. With the current Madden '09 implementation your DLine play is left to the mercy of whoever designed the play you are calling and is the same game in and game out.

i totally agree with that. who ever invented that idea in the 2k football team was a genius and im sure IMO in real life that the defensive line gets different assignment than the actual play being called

[tonynyy]

Re: Defensive Line Play in Madden / APF2K8

Good stuff guys. All Pro definitely has it. EA should just bring in an Offensive Line coach and use him as a consultant. Maybe Howard Mudd, since he's retired?

[Sauk]

Re: Defensive Line Play in Madden / APF2K8

Actually their BOB protection logic is pretty damn good. I'm not fond of the slide protection though. It is a full slide and in the NFL if you do that on a consistent basis you will get your players feeling sorry for themselves, because they are gonna be without a job, sorry for the fans because they have to watch this sad display, and poor QB is going to die. They need half line slides and let the back side stay man on man, like so:



Here you get the Will backer walked up to the line and the Center declares weakside help. So now the Tackle steps out and picks up the Will, the Guard steps to the DE and the Center steps to the DT. On the backside the G and Tackle are in big on big (BOB). In Madden the entire line would slide weak and unless you leave that TE in to block that back side DE comes in unabated.

Pretty good illustration there.

A good protection always protects the inside first, inside to outside. So to have a back on the inside is a touch scary. Usually you will have that RT look for the blitz while the back helps him on his outside. So he will pick up the end in the case the LB will come.

Again most time if a team is sliding like that they are going to be hot throws and not long 5 step throws. But you always protect the inside first. Besides if both the M and S blitz if the tackle slides down he will just create a nice big pile of people so that the inside is secure.

Anyways good drawing

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Defensive Line Play in Madden / APF2K8

damnit i wish ian would chime in and tell us hows it going with some videos to back it up so he can put us at ease. this is the single biggest beef ive had with madden FOREVER.

[noplace]

Re: Defensive Line Play in Madden / APF2K8

Did you go to community day ?

Nope. Didnt need too. One thing EA has been is consistant.

[grunt]

Re: Defensive Line Play in Madden / APF2K8

Pretty good illustration there.

A good protection always protects the inside first, inside to outside. So to have a back on the inside is a touch scary. Usually you will have that RT look for the blitz while the back helps him on his outside. So he will pick up the end in the case the LB will come.

Again most time if a team is sliding like that they are going to be hot throws and not long 5 step throws. But you always protect the inside first. Besides if both the M and S blitz if the tackle slides down he will just create a nice big pile of people so that the inside is secure.

Anyways good drawing

Good post. Are you saying the rt would be responsible for an inside blitz?

[rhombic21]

Re: Defensive Line Play in Madden / APF2K8

In addition to the things that have been discussed here, one of the things that needs to change is the psychic ability of linemen on one side of the formation to peel back and pick up blitzers coming from the complete opposite side of the formation, which really neuters a lot of the zone blitzes. Like you'll have blitzes where you drop a DE on one side off, and bring a slot corner or safety off the other side, and the tackle that was originally responsible for the DE will, at the snap of the ball, turn and run at a perfect angle to pick up the blitzer.

If you play around with it, it's clear that the OL is basically psychic in it's ability to identify which players are blitzing and which aren't. You can counteract it somewhat by manually "fake" blitzing (rushing in briefly and then dropping back into coverage), and some plays have DEs who do those sort of assignments by default, which will cause the pressure to get there, but it's still ridiculous to watch an OT peel back and block a nickleback coming off the edge on the complete opposite side of the formation. And this will happen regardless of ratings, so it's not even a skill issue.

Last year (08) the blitzing defenses gave the OL huge problems because they didn't have slide protection. This year, they went way too far in making the OL able to recognize blitzes on the fly. They need to have the OL pass block logic basically be the same as last year, and add in the slide protections as they were implemented on last-gen.

[NYGmen56]

Re: Defensive Line Play in Madden / APF2K8

i totally agree with that. who ever invented that idea in the 2k football team was a genius and im sure IMO in real life that the defensive line gets different assignment than the actual play being called

Agree... Does anyone know who the dev's where for the 2k football series?? Who ever they where, much props.. Seriously, 2k must of went out and got themselves MIT engineers or something to build their game lol.. Just amazing how they did all that 5 years ago. Imagine what they could of done now?? Damn..

[grunt]

Re: Defensive Line Play in Madden / APF2K8

I am still positive about the Madden team for trying to improve line play. Line play is the most difficult element to capture in a video game. I am hoping in the next couple of years the Madden team would continue to put time and resources on both side of the line of scrimmage.

2k8 is a nice model but I am hoping Team Madden will surpass 2k8 line play in the near future.

Peace

[DGuinta1]

Re: Defensive Line Play in Madden / APF2K8

Wow like nite and day between the two!

[TombSong]

Re: Defensive Line Play in Madden / APF2K8

After playing alot of the better players in AP2K8 you come to appriciate how REALLY important the Oline/Dline interaction is in a football game. We often cry about DB's ability to cover in man or zone, but the engine that makes your squad effective overall and effects all that other stuff is how well your dline and oline are playing.

The 2K games enforce this because everything ties into it. The QB drops, the pass routes, are all tied into how well/bad the Oline can perform its job. That inturn affects your play calling, what type of squd you run with etc.

Madden the way it has played is a arcade game trying to emulate a football game.

I got a prediction. If Madden does manage to bring some of the football stuff spoken of here to their game, alot of guys in this thread crying about "2K aint fun, blah blah blah" are gonna be puzzled/crying when Madden 2010 drops. Because the style of gameplay that allowed them to make that game "FUN" for them aint gonna work in a game that does not allow alot of the BS we currently see in Madden games.

When you cant chuck a ball to a WR anytime you feel like it, when you cant throw the ball with high accuarcy any distance with 98% of the QB's in the game, when you cant scramble around the pocket at will, when you cant rocket catch, when you cant shut down run formations from dime/quarters, when you cant find your money plays, like you cant in AP2K8. The whaling and nashing of teeth will begin. They will sit in their corner with their joystick in their left hand and a bible in their right, wondering when did the world end and why were they not informed ?

Then all they will hear is:

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/eK2JHIKJ7yQ&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/eK2JHIKJ7yQ&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

[LBzrule]

Re: Defensive Line Play in Madden / APF2K8

In addition to the things that have been discussed here, one of the things that needs to change is the psychic ability of linemen on one side of the formation to peel back and pick up blitzers coming from the complete opposite side of the formation, which really neuters a lot of the zone blitzes. Like you'll have blitzes where you drop a DE on one side off, and bring a slot corner or safety off the other side, and the tackle that was originally responsible for the DE will, at the snap of the ball, turn and run at a perfect angle to pick up the blitzer.

If you play around with it, it's clear that the OL is basically psychic in it's ability to identify which players are blitzing and which aren't. You can counteract it somewhat by manually "fake" blitzing (rushing in briefly and then dropping back into coverage), and some plays have DEs who do those sort of assignments by default, which will cause the pressure to get there, but it's still ridiculous to watch an OT peel back and block a nickleback coming off the edge on the complete opposite side of the formation. And this will happen regardless of ratings, so it's not even a skill issue.

Last year (08) the blitzing defenses gave the OL huge problems because they didn't have slide protection. This year, they went way too far in making the OL able to recognize blitzes on the fly. They need to have the OL pass block logic basically be the same as last year, and add in the slide protections as they were implemented on last-gen.

I actually pointed this out at CD. I almost yelled actually. But got a hold of myself and one of the programmers and asked, "where is the procedural awareness for the Oline, there is no way he should be able to ...." He said in the final build it shouldn't happen. I'm waiting on this one because if it does grrrrrrrrrr.