Maddens legal battle starts today 09/14/2009!

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  • TimLawNYC
    Rookie
    • Mar 2009
    • 340

    #226
    Re: Maddens legal battle starts today 09/14/2009!

    A few quick points on this issue, some of which respond to various posts made earlier in this thread:

    1. Several of you have argued that EA doesn't have a monopoly over football video games. Technically that's true, but the point is that the only viable market for football video games exists in the market for NFL football video games; thus, a monopoly over NFL football games (which EA arguably does have) is essentially a monopoly over all football games. Like many cases of this kind, it really comes down to market definition; if the relevant market is defined narrowly, EA could very well lose. And just looking at the anecdotal evidence (i.e. NFL2K5 was great and $20; EA scooped up exclusive license and 2k went away for good and EA still charges $60 for Madden) gives rise to possible arguments that EA engaged in anticompetitive conduct to drive 2k from the football game market, which also resulted in harm to consumers (since we no longer have the option of a $20 football game and now can only buy the $60 game), both of which are antitrust law violations even in some cases where a monopoly doesn't exist.

    2. I think the better argument here is that it's not EA, but the NFL that is violating the law by only licensing rights to video games to one company. You could argue that the NFL license is a necessary input in the production of a football video game (since non-licensed games won't sell), and thus the NFL and EA have colluded to create impassible barriers to entry in the football video game market by creating the exclusive license. No competition is possible in this field, because the NFL has shut out all other potential market entrants by granting exclusivity to EA. That is truly an antitrust violation.

    3. The case in the OP might essentially be over before it even goes to trial. The Supreme Court is hearing the American Needle case (briefs due tomorrow), and the outcome of that will go a long way to deciding whether the NFL can legally issue the exclusive license or not. The core issue in that case is whether the NFL can act collectively as one entity to issue exclusive licenses (in that case it's the license for official team apparel), or where each team must be treated as a separate legal entity that needs to negotiate its own licenses individually. If American Needle wins (and it might--it's appealing a Seventh Circuit decision that takes a minority view; the majority of circuits that have decided similar cases have held what American Needle is arguing for), the NFL's authority to grant exclusive licenses would go away. In one sense it could be bad for gaming, because then any game company would theoretically need to negotiate a license agreement with each team (so if, say, the Dallas Cowboys wouldn't sign on, they wouldn't be in the game, even though all the other teams would be), but on the other hand it should open up competition and allow other game companies to obtain NFL team licenses.

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    • p_rushing
      Hall Of Fame
      • Feb 2004
      • 14514

      #227
      Re: Maddens legal battle starts today 09/14/2009!

      I signed up just in case by some miracle they win, so I get my money, probably $5 off Madden or your next EA game.

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      • GatorBait06NC
        Banned
        • Feb 2009
        • 407

        #228
        Re: Maddens legal battle starts today 09/14/2009!

        First off, this isnt a stupid case. EA didnt buy out its competition, they sought out exclusive deals with the leagues in hope that it would kill its competition. Its not EAs fault, this is cut-throat business. Its the NFL and NCAAs fault for allowing this. The NBA hasnt been sucked into this yet.

        Wal-Mart gets away with this same type of thing everyday. So I doubt anything will come of this, even though it should.

        The point should be to bring in consumers like us who would definately appreciate it if EA had some competition. As long as EA has exclusive rights, we lose. The day they lose them is the day we can all rejoice.

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        • Azamien
          MVP
          • Mar 2005
          • 1475

          #229
          Re: Maddens legal battle starts today 09/14/2009!

          Take the whole video game aspect out of your thinking for a moment and answer honestly:

          Do you feel comfortable with the idea that the courts can tell a company what they can and can't do with their own trademarks? Do you feel comfortable with the idea that a company can be forced to grant a trademark use license to anyone who desires one?

          I'm very liberal. Not Marxist, but certainly leaning towards socialist, and even I'm very uncomfortable with the above ideas.

          Still leaving the video game aspect out of the equation for a moment, think about all of the things that a ruling in favor of the plaintiffs would impact. There are exclusivity deals everywhere.

          It seems a lot of you are interpreting the law based upon what you want it to be, and that desire is rooted in wanting 2K to make an NFL game again. Stop and think for a moment what kind of a can of worms would be opened if the law is bent to those desires, though.
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          • GTheorenHobbes
            Banned
            • Jul 2002
            • 2572

            #230
            Re: Maddens legal battle starts today 09/14/2009!

            Originally posted by Azamien
            Take the whole video game aspect out of your thinking for a moment and answer honestly:

            Do you feel comfortable with the idea that the courts can tell a company what they can and can't do with their own trademarks? Do you feel comfortable with the idea that a company can be forced to grant a trademark use license to anyone who desires one?
            I'll play along, by asking you a question: why even have monopoly laws on the books, if you don't want to see them enforced? In every case where there's been found a monopoly, the courts (or a jury) told the companies involved what they could or could not do with their product/services.

            If you're arguing that we should get rid of monopoly laws altogether, then I won't bicker...you're certainly entitled to your own opinion. But if you're okay with the laws, then I don't see how or why you don't think they should be enforced.

            Comment

            • TheLateralLine
              Banned
              • Aug 2008
              • 85

              #231
              Re: Maddens legal battle starts today 09/14/2009!

              i don't care about a company's rights. Do they care about our rights?

              hell no

              They don't need you or anyone in the public defending them, they know how to get their way in this country, they can contribute to their congressman's election and buy their laws. I am not even a 2K sports fan but I think competition is healthy and I am all for this lawsuit!

              Comment

              • bigjake62505
                Banned
                • Mar 2008
                • 1079

                #232
                Re: Maddens legal battle starts today 09/14/2009!

                Originally posted by Azamien
                Take the whole video game aspect out of your thinking for a moment and answer honestly:

                Do you feel comfortable with the idea that the courts can tell a company what they can and can't do with their own trademarks? Do you feel comfortable with the idea that a company can be forced to grant a trademark use license to anyone who desires one?

                I'm very liberal. Not Marxist, but certainly leaning towards socialist, and even I'm very uncomfortable with the above ideas.

                Still leaving the video game aspect out of the equation for a moment, think about all of the things that a ruling in favor of the plaintiffs would impact. There are exclusivity deals everywhere.

                It seems a lot of you are interpreting the law based upon what you want it to be, and that desire is rooted in wanting 2K to make an NFL game again. Stop and think for a moment what kind of a can of worms would be opened if the law is bent to those desires, though.
                The case and it arguements are not based on "bending the law" it is based on finding out if there were any anti-trust laws broken. Big business, big money, and stomping out competition. Even when there were multiple companys making NFL games they were required to pay to have NFL teams in their game. Also the NFLPA was paid to have the player likness in the game.

                Comment

                • Azamien
                  MVP
                  • Mar 2005
                  • 1475

                  #233
                  Re: Maddens legal battle starts today 09/14/2009!

                  Originally posted by GTheorenHobbes
                  I'll play along, by asking you a question: why even have monopoly laws on the books, if you don't want to see them enforced? In every case where there's been found a monopoly, the courts (or a jury) told the companies involved what they could or could not do with their product/services.

                  If you're arguing that we should get rid of monopoly laws altogether, then I won't bicker...you're certainly entitled to your own opinion. But if you're okay with the laws, then I don't see how or why you don't think they should be enforced.
                  Your working definition of monopoly is wrong.

                  EA blocking companies from making any video games would be an illegal monopoly. EA blocking companies from making an NFL-licensed video game is not an illegal monopoly. It's simply the result of an exclusive-rights deal granted by the holder of the trademarks in one very narrow, specific part of the larger video game industry.

                  Let's try some other examples.

                  NBC was the exclusive US broadcast partner of the 2008 Summer Olympic Games. This prevented any other network from airing those games. Illegal monopoly?

                  Sony holds the exclusive rights to The Da Vinci Code, meaning that no other movie studio could film a movie based on that (hugely overrated) book. Illegal monopoly?

                  Turbine holds the exclusive rights to produce a massively multiplayer online game based on the novel Lord of the Rings. No other company can make a game based on the novel. Illegal monopoly?

                  If the three above aren't illegal monopolies, in what way do they differ from the EA/NFL deal?
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                  • JEM
                    Banned
                    • Feb 2009
                    • 501

                    #234
                    Re: Maddens legal battle starts today 09/14/2009!

                    Originally posted by Azamien
                    Your working definition of monopoly is wrong.

                    EA blocking companies from making any video games would be an illegal monopoly. EA blocking companies from making an NFL-licensed video game is not an illegal monopoly. It's simply the result of an exclusive-rights deal granted by the holder of the trademarks in one very narrow, specific part of the larger video game industry.

                    Let's try some other examples.

                    NBC was the exclusive US broadcast partner of the 2008 Summer Olympic Games. This prevented any other network from airing those games. Illegal monopoly?

                    Sony holds the exclusive rights to The Da Vinci Code, meaning that no other movie studio could film a movie based on that (hugely overrated) book. Illegal monopoly?

                    Turbine holds the exclusive rights to produce a massively multiplayer online game based on the novel Lord of the Rings. No other company can make a game based on the novel. Illegal monopoly?

                    If the three above aren't illegal monopolies, in what way do they differ from the EA/NFL deal?
                    I think they are pretty different.

                    Everyone has NBC if they have cable , OTA , satellite..ect. You dont have to have a specific provider to get the channel. Have to buy EA to get NFL Football and many other sports.

                    Did Sony go out and buy other rights so people had to watch their movie if they wanted to watch one at all? Thats what EA did.

                    The MMO example isnt a very good one IMO.. There are options out there of better quality and to top it off you dont actually need an exclusive to succeed in the genre ( same goes for you book example ).

                    People seem to be forgetting that an issue brought up in this case is that a " Pro " Football game just will not sell ( judge seems to agree at this point ) without having the NFL license.. And that is true.

                    Lets also not forget that EA has not 1 , not 2 but around 5 exclusives in the sports genre...

                    Comment

                    • Azamien
                      MVP
                      • Mar 2005
                      • 1475

                      #235
                      Re: Maddens legal battle starts today 09/14/2009!

                      Originally posted by JEM
                      Everyone has NBC if they have cable , OTA , satellite..ect. You dont have to have a specific provider to get the channel. Have to buy EA to get NFL Football and many other sports.
                      Everyone has access to EA products if they own a video game console. Selecting EA instead of another brand is the same as selecting NBC instead of ABC. If you wanted to watch the Olympics, you had to turn on a network that operates under the NBC umbrella. If you want to play an NFL game you have to choose EA.

                      Did Sony go out and buy other rights so people had to watch their movie if they wanted to watch one at all? Thats what EA did.
                      That's not what EA did. Plenty of other video games are being produced, just as plenty of other movies are being produced. But if you wanted to watch a movie based on The Da Vinci Code, you had to watch a Sony-made movie, just as you have to play an EA-made title if you want an NFL game.

                      The MMO example isnt a very good one IMO.. There are options out there of better quality and to top it off you dont actually need an exclusive to succeed in the genre ( same goes for you book example ).
                      Sure, but your mistake here is that you're giving "NFL licensed video games" a genre unto itself, and it isn't. There are other choices in video games. But, just as I mentioned in the point before this one, if you want to play a LOTR-themed MMO, you have one choice. If you want to play an NFL-themed game, you have one choice. There's no difference.

                      People seem to be forgetting that an issue brought up in this case is that a " Pro " Football game just will not sell ( judge seems to agree at this point ) without having the NFL license.. And that is true.
                      First, the judge does not "agree". He's made no declaration. Not dismissing a case isn't the same as agreeing.

                      Second, I'm not willing to grant the premise that games without an NFL license are incapable of being profitable. Blitz and Blitz II were niche games that didn't even resemble actual football. All Pro Football 2K8 received mediocre reviews and lacked any form of a franchise mode.

                      No one has attempted to produce a game with the features of a full game, so there's no way to determine what would and wouldn't be profitable.

                      I would be willing to bet there's a huge market for a full-featured (especially including franchise mode) football game that played a more realistic brand of football than Madden does. Would it out-sell Madden? Probably not, but neither did 2K even at a discount price. But no one is stopping game makers from attempting to put out a pro-style football game. (And, speaking as someone living in Canada, where the hell is my CFL game already?)

                      Lets also not forget that EA has not 1 , not 2 but around 5 exclusives in the sports genre...
                      I'm glad you brought this up, because I forgot a huge exclusivity example earlier. UFC. THQ owns the exclusive UFC license. So is EA sitting back and saying, "Oh, well, they snagged the only really marketable brand, so we might as well quit." Instead they're making their own brand-less MMA game. And I'll bet they sell a lot of copies.

                      And don't forget about the MLB license. You know, the one Take 2 snatched up solely to keep EA from being able to make an MLB game.
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                      • Tbo24
                        Rookie
                        • Apr 2009
                        • 270

                        #236
                        Re: Maddens legal battle starts today 09/14/2009!

                        Why don't we just shut up and quit acting like we know what we are talking about and let the lawsuit play out?

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                        • Azamien
                          MVP
                          • Mar 2005
                          • 1475

                          #237
                          Re: Maddens legal battle starts today 09/14/2009!

                          Originally posted by Tbo24
                          Why don't we just shut up and quit acting like we know what we are talking about and let the lawsuit play out?
                          Or you could just not click on the thread? But I suppose telling people to shut up from behind a keyboard is the cool thing to do these days.
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                          • Tbo24
                            Rookie
                            • Apr 2009
                            • 270

                            #238
                            Re: Maddens legal battle starts today 09/14/2009!

                            I suppose arguing over something stupid is the cool thing to do these days.

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                            • Azamien
                              MVP
                              • Mar 2005
                              • 1475

                              #239
                              Re: Maddens legal battle starts today 09/14/2009!

                              Originally posted by Tbo24
                              I suppose arguing over something stupid is the cool thing to do these days.
                              So, again, don't click on the thread. Easy solution.
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                              • Tbo24
                                Rookie
                                • Apr 2009
                                • 270

                                #240
                                Re: Maddens legal battle starts today 09/14/2009!

                                Well then let people post their opinions on the subject without trying to prove them wrong with every point they make. k? Now I leave the thread good day. :wink:

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