The gap control defense, or, an Ode to Jimmy Johnson

[seriousluboy83]

Re: The gap control defense, or, an Ode to Jimmy Johnson

Good Stuff Sven!!

I would add that the reason to Toss plays and most other outside run plays can seem over effective is the lack of POA...Point of Attack(Especially the DE and OLB. They should be the first ones getting to the ball carrier or at least occupying the oncoming guard or tackle so that the MLB can make the stop. Instead they back up first instead of reading the Te and the Tackle. The OLB if properly schemed would Always put his hands on the TE and if the TE Blocks down, The OLB is supposed to step down and look for the guard/near back and come hard. This never happens, thus the routine 50, 70, 80 yard outside runs...At least that is the way I was taught how to play OLB(strong Side). I also played FB and TE. Thats why for Madden it is critical to manually do as much as you can yourself.

False steps are a huge thing in madden...LB's first step should be towards the LOS and DB's first step should be away from the LOS

[nacnud]

Re: The gap control defense, or, an Ode to Jimmy Johnson

Ea should most certainly read this thread, it really is a goldmine of good football knowledge. They need to get the fundamentals of football down before worrying about gimmicks and bs.

[CreatineKasey]

Re: The gap control defense, or, an Ode to Jimmy Johnson

False steps are a huge thing in madden...LB's first step should be towards the LOS and DB's first step should be away from the LOS

This is one of the many reasons why defense is so weird in M10 in some aspects. You can crowd the box yet run on it because linebackers are creeping backwards against an ISO because they are in a soft zone D. This is also why those linebackers can cover while being scrunched into a small place. It's extremely counter-intuitive. If that was a real life situation I think the linebackers would still read run first and probably get back to coverage slower.

The downside of show blitz is mis-represented in Madden at this moment in my opinion. The upside is in some ways also.

[ANDROMADA 1]

Re: The gap control defense, or, an Ode to Jimmy Johnson

False steps are a huge thing in madden...LB's first step should be towards the LOS and DB's first step should be away from the LOS

Yup. Even if the OLB is covering the TE, He Should NEVER, back up immediately, NEVER. You always attack as a defender. You put your hands on the Te to Jam him at the line then you make your read.

[sportyguyfl31]

Re: The gap control defense, or, an Ode to Jimmy Johnson

Good Stuff Sven!!

I would add that the reason to Toss plays and most other outside run plays can seem over effective is the lack of POA...Point of Attack(Especially the DE and OLB. They should be the first ones getting to the ball carrier or at least occupying the oncoming guard or tackle so that the MLB can make the stop. Instead they back up first instead of reading the Te and the Tackle. The OLB if properly schemed would Always put his hands on the TE and if the TE Blocks down, The OLB is supposed to step down and look for the guard/near back and come hard. This never happens, thus the routine 50, 70, 80 yard outside runs...At least that is the way I was taught how to play OLB(strong Side). I also played FB and TE. Thats why for Madden it is critical to manually do as much as you can yourself.

Truth! You also dont see the MLB truly take on a lead blocker, or wade through "trash". They kinda just "pop" and end up where they need to be, or the blockers do not pick him up.

I think if there was some way to program logic that would tell the LBs, "When the OL down blocks, I fill in <WHATEVER be should assignment gap his>"

Casey is also correct. When in zone coverage, the logic has them retreating from the LOS, then reacting to the run, which shouldnt happen.

Having an in the box SS doesnt do much unless you are doing it yourself.

[Palo20]

Re: The gap control defense, or, an Ode to Jimmy Johnson

Great Points about false steps. Right now in Madden it seems you can take a MLB, take 2 or 3 false steps, and still recover to cover a deep pass using speed burst. There should be more of a penalty for being out of place.

[shttymcgee]

Re: The gap control defense, or, an Ode to Jimmy Johnson

What does Jimmy Johnson have to do with this dumb thread anyway

Funny you should ask. Before he was acting like a moron for more money than I'm likely to see in my life he was busy inventing the wishbone-killer, the 4-3 defense. While I wasn't in any of the meetings while it was being developed, so I'm not sure if he was doing his hair or diagraming, since he was the head coach he gets the credit (funny world eh?). His defense, named the Miami 4-3 (since he made it famous while coaching at Da U) was to force the ball wide and let the fast guys chase it down.

While the Wishbone was eating the 3-4 alive (I mean, the Okie 5-2 for anyone who really cares )with the FB inside on the option runs, Johnson and Co. designed a defense to take away the inside run, force the QB to pitch it wide and then use the freakish speed he had to chase down the running back.

Ok Sven, thanks for the history lesson, but how does it work.

First, a diagram:

......................F.................$......... ........
CB.............LB.............LB.................. LB...........CB
................DE...........N..........DT........ ....DE
WR...........(c)..T..(b).G.(a).C.(a)..G.(b)..T..(c).TE (d)
...........................Q..................
...........................F................
....................HB........HB.........

The premise is simple: There are 7 gaps(3 on the left, 4 on the right). There are 7 defensive players. As long as you have one player in each gap, they can't run anywhere. (Thus, gap control)

The issue now becomes, how do you make sure that everybody is covering the right gap. You can't just blitz every gap every play (those Linebackers have to cover the pass as well).

Block Down, Step Down

This is the first important "feature" of the defense. What the wishbone (and, the "Power" running game of today) wants to do is run the ball somewhere between the "b" gap and the "c" gap. The wishbone did this by "reading" the end and linebacker. The power running game sends players to block the end and linebacker. Whichever the method, the offense wants to seal the DT and MLB inside, kickout the DE and send a lead blocker and the ball carrier in that hole.

The gap-control defense, obviously, wants to prevent this. How?

To block these plays the offense will utillize down blocks (IE, they are blocking down the line, to the inside). The guard will block to his inside. The tackle will block to his inside. The TE will block to his inside.

The guard is going to try and block the LB (weakside, stacked over the DE). The tackle is going to block the DT. The TE is going to block the MLB.

However, instead of allowing the offensive lineman to create a seam by down blocking, the defensive lineman will move with the offensive lineman.

The guard will block down. Instead of standing in place (and create a seam between the guard and himself) the DT will step with the guard. The guard blocks down the line, the tackle steps down the line.

The tackle is going to block down on that DT. Easy block. He's already blocking himself.

The TE is going to block down, going for the TE. The DE isn't going to stand there and create a seam, he's going to step down with the TE.

So lets look at our diagram again. The DT starts the play in the "B' gap. The DE starts it in the "d" gap.

......................F.................$......... ........
CB.............LB.............LB.................. LB...........CB
................DE...........N..........DT........ ....DE
WR...........(c)..T..(b).G.(a).C.(a)..G.(b)..T..(c).TE (d)
...........................Q..................
...........................F................
....................HB........HB.........

The guard is blocking down.

......................F.................$......... ........
CB.............LB...G..........LB..................LB...........CB
................DE...........N..........DT........ ....DE
WR...........(c)..T..(b).G.(a).C.(a)...(b)..T..(c).TE (d)
...........................Q..................
...........................F................
....................HB........HB.........

The DT isn't just going to stand in the "b" gap, he'll step down (untill he runs into the center).

......................F.................$......... ........
CB.............LB....G.........LB................. .LB...........CB
................DE...........N...DT...................DE
WR...........(c)..T..(b).G.(a).C.(a)...(b)..T..(c).TE (d)
...........................Q..................
...........................F................
....................HB........HB.........

Now, he's in the "a" gap.

......................F.................$......... ........
CB.............LB....G.........LB..TE............. ...LB...........CB
................DE...........N...DT...................DE
WR...........(c)..T..(b).G.(a).C.(a)...T(b)....(c). (d)
...........................Q..................
...........................F................
....................HB........HB.........

The tackle is blocking him (and moving inside). The TE is also blocking down. Look at that huge void between the Tackle and our DE. That would be a huge run, if the DE didn't step down with it.

......................F.................$......... ........
CB.............LB....G.........LB...TE............ ...LB...........CB
................DE...........N...DT.....DE..............
WR...........(c)..T..(b).G.(a).C.(a)...T(b)....(c). (d)
...........................Q..................
...........................F................
....................HB........HB.........

So, now instead of our DT and DE standing in the "b" and "d" gaps as they were in the start of the play, they are now occupying the "a" gap and the "b" gap. Why? Through, block down, step down.

Ray-Ray

Let's look at our first diagram one more time.

......................F.................$......... ........
CB.............LB.............LB.................. LB...........CB
................DE...........N..........DT........ ....DE
WR...........(c)..T..(b).G.(a).C.(a)..G.(b)..T..(c).TE (d)
...........................Q..................
...........................F................
....................HB........HB.........

Look at the middle linebacker. He's standing over the "a" gap. But, now that gap is occupied with a DT.

......................F.................$......... ........
CB.............LB....G.........LB...TE............ ...LB...........CB
................DE...........N...DT.....DE........ ......
WR...........(c)..T..(b).G.(a).C.(a)...T(b)....(c). (d)
...........................Q..................
...........................F................
....................HB........HB.........

Think back to the basic premise of the defense. 7 gaps, and 7 defenders. Our MLB (say, Ray Lewis for Miami) isn't going to bash his head into an occupied gap. He's going to run sideways until he finds an unoccupied gap. (obviously, beating the TE's block along the way, but that is for another post).

......................F.................$......... ........
CB.............LB....G............TE.........LB......LB...........CB
................DE...........N...DT.....DE........ ......
WR...........(c)..T..(b).G.(a).C.(a)...T(b)....(c). (d)
...........................Q..................
...........................F................
....................HB........HB.........

Eureka! Since his original gap "a" was closed, and it's neighbor "b" was closed too, he went all the way to the "c" gap. So, when our running back tries to run into "c" gap that is closed too.

So, he'll try and go wider, into the "d" gap. But, there's another LB standing there. Ok, get really wide. But now there is a CB standing there. Trapped like a rat.

Through the process of "Block down/Step down" and Linebacker scrapping, the defense has occupied the 4 playside gaps without creating a single crack for the ball carrier. Either the ball carrier barrels into a defensive player, or he tries to go wide into the waiting arms of our corner (and safety).

Hate to be a stickler, but in the "Miami 4-3," the MLB lines up in a half stack on the nose guard to the weakside of the formation.

USC played more middle field safety defenses, with the weak safety in the box and the weak lb lined ub stacked on on the three technique, which is alot different then the under 2 deep defense you showed.

Gotta mention the 1-gap penetrating defenses too, which certainly isn't the same as the gap control defenses.

[Hova57]

Re: The gap control defense, or, an Ode to Jimmy Johnson

Hate to be a stickler, but in the "Miami 4-3," the MLB lines up in a half stack on the nose guard to the weakside of the formation.

USC played more middle field safety defenses, with the weak safety in the box and the weak lb lined ub stacked on on the three technique, which is alot different then the under 2 deep defense you showed.

Gotta mention the 1-gap penetrating defenses too, which certainly isn't the same as the gap control defenses.

wouldn't that be more for a 46 defense or 3-3-5

[kcarr]

Re: The gap control defense, or, an Ode to Jimmy Johnson

I think the biggest thing wrong with run defense in madden is first, the defense is only given pass protection assignments. If the play is a run all player's assignments become tackle the runner which causes a collapse in any containment that should be there. When this happens running becomes less about finding rushing lanes and more about breaking out of tackles. This also means that since there is no containment if the first line is broken the back is gone.

This ends up leading to most games rushing to be mostly losses and 1 or 2 yard gains with way more big plays than there should be. This may end up giving decent or even really high rushing numbers but this also ends up stopping the running game from doing what it is supposed to do for most teams which is to set up a consistent pushing force moving the chains and forcing the opposing team to react and bring extra people up near the line. The only way I have found to have a consistent rushing attack here is to have a big power back and just run north and south but that should not be the case. There should be the ability to with a solid o-line being able to run the ball with decent consistency without having to make big plays every game to put up realistic numbers.

Most backs in real life do not make a big run per game on average. In fact a complete list of running backs with 16 or more 20 yard carries in a season would be

Tiki barber, 1 time
Adrian peterson, 1 time
Chris Johnson, 1 time

That is 3 total seasons in 5 years, around once every 2 years one back out of all the backs in the league will pull this off. They really need to show this in the game and having players maintain their assignments against the run is probably the best way to do it.

[shttymcgee]

Re: The gap control defense, or, an Ode to Jimmy Johnson

I think the biggest thing wrong with run defense in madden is first, the defense is only given pass protection assignments. If the play is a run all player's assignments become tackle the runner which causes a collapse in any containment that should be there. When this happens running becomes less about finding rushing lanes and more about breaking out of tackles. This also means that since there is no containment if the first line is broken the back is gone.

This ends up leading to most games rushing to be mostly losses and 1 or 2 yard gains with way more big plays than there should be. This may end up giving decent or even really high rushing numbers but this also ends up stopping the running game from doing what it is supposed to do for most teams which is to set up a consistent pushing force moving the chains and forcing the opposing team to react and bring extra people up near the line. The only way I have found to have a consistent rushing attack here is to have a big power back and just run north and south but that should not be the case. There should be the ability to with a solid o-line being able to run the ball with decent consistency without having to make big plays every game to put up realistic numbers.

Most backs in real life do not make a big run per game on average. In fact a complete list of running backs with 16 or more 20 yard carries in a season would be

Tiki barber, 1 time
Adrian peterson, 1 time
Chris Johnson, 1 time

That is 3 total seasons in 5 years, around once every 2 years one back out of all the backs in the league will pull this off. They really need to show this in the game and having players maintain their assignments against the run is probably the best way to do it.

You're right. In Madden, there is no force defender, no fill defender, and no pursuit player. These are fundamental defensive concepts that are determined by the called coverage, yet they are left out in Madden, which makes defending outside runs a crapshoot.

[Sven Draconian]

Re: The gap control defense, or, an Ode to Jimmy Johnson

Hate to be a stickler, but in the "Miami 4-3," the MLB lines up in a half stack on the nose guard to the weakside of the formation.

Besides the obvious point (that he is, more or less stacked...it's a picture made with periods).

There is no universal alignment, and, more than likely, actual alignment will vary based on what you are expecting to see. If the other team is going to run power, you want the MLB into the PS a-gap. If it's a zone, you want him a bit more stacked. But it's a minor point.

USC played more middle field safety defenses, with the weak safety in the box and the weak lb lined ub stacked on on the three technique, which is alot different then the under 2 deep defense you showed.

I hate to be a stickler, but USC rolls the coverage post-snap, so they align in a two-deep shell. However, I'll deal with coverages in a later post.

The weak lb is stacked on the 3-tech. However, if a team is rolling it's coverage down (ala USC) there is no reason to keep the WLB wide.

Gotta mention the 1-gap penetrating defenses too, which certainly isn't the same as the gap control defenses.

Besides the fact I did (see the first post), they aren't nearly as prevelant in the NFL (or, FBS).

[shttymcgee]

Re: The gap control defense, or, an Ode to Jimmy Johnson

There is no universal alignment, and, more than likely, actual alignment will vary based on what you are expecting to see. If the other team is going to run power, you want the MLB into the PS a-gap. If it's a zone, you want him a bit more stacked. But it's a minor point.



I hate to be a stickler, but USC rolls the coverage post-snap, so they align in a two-deep shell. However, I'll deal with coverages in a later post.

The weak lb is stacked on the 3-tech. However, if a team is rolling it's coverage down (ala USC) there is no reason to keep the WLB wide.



Besides the fact I did (see the first post), they aren't nearly as prevelant in the NFL (or, FBS).

Most of the over-stack defenses ran in the NFL now have the MLB in the closed A-gap, but it was a non-negotiable in the true Miami defense to line him up weak. That was because the WLB was all the way outside in a 70 technique, the Mike had to be weak to help on weakside iso. I learned this from someone very close to the original guys on the staff. Its really not that big of a deal, but the true "spill and kill" guys get upset when that MLB is lined up strong, they say its not their defense.

Southern Cal did not spin their safeties vs 2-back. Only recently vs the spread stuff have they done that alot.

Sorry I missed the penetration mention. Although there are still quite a few college teams that use this style (big 10) and its still done in the NFL in certain circumstances, notice how the Colts still make yards on trap.

[Sven Draconian]

Re: The gap control defense, or, an Ode to Jimmy Johnson

Most of the over-stack defenses ran in the NFL now have the MLB in the closed A-gap, but it was a non-negotiable in the true Miami defense to line him up weak. That was because the WLB was all the way outside in a 70 technique, the Mike had to be weak to help on weakside iso. I learned this from someone very close to the original guys on the staff. Its really not that big of a deal, but the true "spill and kill" guys get upset when that MLB is lined up strong, they say its not their defense.

Sure, but the defense has evolved just like everything else. There's still a huge core who believe in stacking that MLB, but as for the purpose of a defense to implement into a video game (and one based on 2009...an era of zone blocking more than anything) as compared to the 80s/90s it's (more or less) irrelevant.

Southern Cal did not spin their safeties vs 2-back. Only recently vs the spread stuff have they done that alot.

I'm staring right at some clinic notes form Pete Caroll about spinning a weak safety, at the snap, in his under front. I was at a clinic earlier this morning where the new header at GVSU was talking about this exact defense. While the timing of the spin is variable (the offense wants to get you to tip it, so you are going to pre-roll on occasion).

In fact, it's going to be in a type up pretty soon.

[netking23]

Re: The gap control defense, or, an Ode to Jimmy Johnson

Sven Draconian, shttymcgee

Please don't stop this little discussion. i'm sure i'm not the only one on this site that's learning a lot from this.

[shttymcgee]

Re: The gap control defense, or, an Ode to Jimmy Johnson

The biggest issue with all this "stuff" is how the game could/should simulate it. The first step is too fix the fundamental flaws in the way defense is played (offense too, but that's a different topic). Here's what I think:

#1. There must be true force, plug, pursuit, and cutback players to match every defense, and its not really that hard because it's determined by the coverage structure
Force: the flat defender is the force player. He turns every play back inside. It's what the talking heads call "setting the edge." The only way he loses force is if he is cracked; and then the player over the "cracker" (lol) becomes force.
Plug: the next player inside the force defender also keeps his outside free. This could be an end or a backer, it just depends on who the force is.
Pursuit: Normally an inside backer, the pursuit player takes on blocks and the ball carrier square. It's normally his job to make the tackle unless some sort of gap exchange takes place because of veer or gap blocking or if the ball is spilled to the force. He also accounts for the extra gap created by a backside puller or some sort of full flow backfield scheme. Contrary to some of the posts in this thread, defense is not just putting a guy in every gap, you need to account for extra gaps. If you just have defenders filling gaps, then all the offense has to do is figure out who is responsible for the gap they want to run, and then block him with an extra player.
Cutback: Slow plays everything. Normally a secondary player.
The backside force becomes contain, to stop on reverses, nakeds, etc.

2. Accurate, real-time adjustments made by zone defenders. Defenders should not just drop to a spot and then stay there if there's no receiver. They need to find someone to cover. There are many different ways this is accomplished in the real-world (pattern reading, walling of receivers, match-up principles, and zone adjustments due to receiver distribution,) but really, all that needs to be done is defenders need to find someone off opposite color to cover, while maintaining their basic zone responsibility.

3. Defenders need to play with leverage. Deep zone defenders should leverage their opponents based on their help. Underneath zone defenders should maintain their leverage (or at least fight to maintain it) based on the run-fit responsiblities assumed by the defense called.

4. The removal of unsound defenses when the offense lines up in "exotic" formations. Real defenses check-off responsibilities when the offense forces them too. For example, take an overloaded fire zone with the defensive end away from the blitz responsible for the seam-flats. When the offense lines up in a slot formation to that defensive end, the defense will check their responsiblities to get a different player displaced to line up on that slot. Normally its just an exchange of responsibilities, much like the gap-exchange sven wrote about. There should at least be an option to automatically adjust the defense to account for the irregular offensive formation, instead of the current way, which pretty much dictates that you audible out of your pressure, or try to manually adjust the assignments of the affected players.