Why would someone's speed rating fall in 2-3 years?

[Megatron2k7]

Re: Why would someone's speed rating fall in 2-3 years?

Canes usage of the word "deserved" is exactly what you are alluding to by saying ratings should mirror what they really are.

You are just twisting it to try and prove a point.


What we are trying to say is that players HAVE to get re-evaluated every year, whether they are top of the barrel or bottom...

After re-evaluating the players, Donny probably feels that his speed rating was too high last year and therefore didn't deserve it anymore thus the decrease in his speed rating.

We all know the ratings are very subjective and there are bound to be disagreements, but to not understand the concept that Donny's evaluation of this particular player has changed is mind boggling.

No one here is saying you have to agree with the rating, we are simply giving an explanation as to why it could change from year to year.

What I was trying to say about using the word "deserved" , is that it makes it sound like a player has to earn his physical attribute ratings, when if fact, no one needs to earn anything.... (except maybe popularity in Donny's eyes)... Physical attributes simply are what they are.... and shouldn't tie so heavily into who is or is not a good or great player in Madden.

We see Donny constantly over-inflate a players physical ratings just to make sure they are a dominate or great player in the game.

Look at all the pass rush specialist in the game. OLB's and DE's....... they all have inflated speed ratings. Donny raised Jared Allen's speed a point or two early in the season last year via the roster updates. Wow..... did he amazingly get faster somehow in real life....??? Of course not. He was playing great, and was a dominant RE in the NFL (mostly in the first half of the season). So just to make sure Jared Allen was raising hell on the field in Madden... Donny raises his speed...... PATHETIC.......

Can't we get an accurate player in the game to play like Jared Allen with great Pass Rushing moves, great acceleration, Pursuit, and Awareness, without having to bump up his speed ..... ????

If you ask me.... when I see a move like this it's like Donny or EA in general are admitting right to out faces that the damn speed rating is just as "all important" as it always has been. I say BS once again.

As far as Nick Collins goes...... I do not have my Packer fan blinders on here. Yes I'm a die hard Packers fan... but I'm also a die hard football fan in general. Nick Collins did not have a higher speed rating last year in Madden 10.... it was the same 89 we are still complaining about a year later. The Packers roster thread over at the EA Madden forums has a spokesman (each team thread does) who is supposed to have some communication with Donny. For one entire year now, the thread was filled with people begging for an explanation on the Nick Collins speed rating fiasco, and Donny never responded. Hundreds of questions or suggestions, filled with proof in the form of stats, videos, scouting info, and just good old fashioned opinions were put out there for Donny..... and it all fell on deaf ears apparently.

I know this post is getting long.... but I've been wanting to explain something to the many of you in here who just say.... " who cares if the rating are messed up, just fix them yourself."

The reason it IS a big deal to have them done correctly, is because if your not a Packers fan, and you don't go in and fix some of these ratings and you are playing against them in a play now or franchise game.... I want you get caught from behind by Nick Collins and his great top end speed...... I want you to think twice about throwing toward Woodson after he's maybe already picked you off once..... I want you to struggle running the ball against the leagues #1 ranked run defense last year..... I want you to pay if you blitz Aaron Rodgers too much, because his numbers were very impresive last year when he was blitzed.... I could go on and on.... but you get the point.

The same could be said for many of the players on the teams we all root for. This is why it has to be fixed. I call out Donny a lot..... but in truth.... it's just simply too big of a job for one guy to do. EA needs to open up the wallet a little bit here and have a team of at least 4 guys doing the rosters.

[furtigan]

Re: Why would someone's speed rating fall in 2-3 years?

Using a word like "deserved" is a problem all in itself.

Players don't deserve speed or strength ratings........ they should accurately mirror what they really are..... simple as that.

You are making it sound like you are backing the idea of the EA guys (Donny) giving players ratings based on whether he deems them worthy of them or not... and that is the major problem.

The physical attributes are not supposed to be based on opinions...... just facts. Various skill sets of the players is where the opinions should start to kick in.

This has never been the way Madden ratings worked. Never, ever, ever. You could wish they did, but they don't.

Wes Welker ran a 4.55 40. Brian Westbrook was a 4.57. Anquan Boldin and Jerry Rice ran 4.6. Brandon Marshall and Emmitt Smiff ran 4.7. If they were trying to blindly translate track times into SPD ratings, they'd give those guys speed ratings in the 70s. Would that be realistic? Of course not.

Running fast on a track has nothing to do with making a "player" in a video game who will perform somewhat comparably to the guy in real life.

News flash: Madden is not a perfect reproduction of real life. Among its many imperfections is that they have never yet been able to fully value things like reaction time, quickness, etc. Until they do, they have to tweak the SPD ratings to make people like Rice and Smith faster than they are IRL, so that they will play better in the game.

At the end of the day, the functional realism of having the best players IRL play the best in the game is more important than the technical realism you seem to want. Brandon Marshall does in fact beat NFL DBs deep, no matter what 40 time he ran in shorts three years ago. The game has to reflect that, and so do the ratings.

[Megatron2k7]

Re: Why would someone's speed rating fall in 2-3 years?

This has never been the way Madden ratings worked. Never, ever, ever. You could wish they did, but they don't.

Wes Welker ran a 4.55 40. Brian Westbrook was a 4.57. Anquan Boldin and Jerry Rice ran 4.6. Brandon Marshall and Emmitt Smiff ran 4.7. If they were trying to blindly translate track times into SPD ratings, they'd give those guys speed ratings in the 70s. Would that be realistic? Of course not.

Running fast on a track has nothing to do with making a "player" in a video game who will perform somewhat comparably to the guy in real life.

News flash: Madden is not a perfect reproduction of real life. Among its many imperfections is that they have never yet been able to fully value things like reaction time, quickness, etc. Until they do, they have to tweak the SPD ratings to make people like Rice and Smith faster than they are IRL, so that they will play better in the game.

At the end of the day, the functional realism of having the best players IRL play the best in the game is more important than the technical realism you seem to want. Brandon Marshall does in fact beat NFL DBs deep, no matter what 40 time he ran in shorts three years ago. The game has to reflect that, and so do the ratings.

I am not asking for too much when I want a game to play realsitically without handing out fake ratings to make it so.

You are accepting the fact that EA is in fact lying to us each year then when they keep saying " speed won't be such a dominating factor this year " .

Jerry Rice probably didn't run a great 40 because his Acceleration wasn't that great..... his top speed however, was outstanding. Rice does deserve a high speed rating in the game, his acceleration should be avg. Most of the long receptions Rice had, he caught in stride, already moving, where his avg first step or two had no effect. Brandon Marshall probably fits the same description. Long striders is the simple way to put it.

The other players you mentioned should not get a "gift" speed rating just to make them good in the game. I'm sorry. I'll never bend to that way of thinking. If EA can't make the game play correctly where speed isn't everything...... then back to the drawing board is what I say.

[DCEBB2001]

Re: Why would someone's speed rating fall in 2-3 years?

I am not asking for too much when I want a game to play realsitically without handing out fake ratings to make it so.

You are accepting the fact that EA is in fact lying to us each year then when they keep saying " speed won't be such a dominating factor this year " .

Jerry Rice probably didn't run a great 40 because his Acceleration wasn't that great..... his top speed however, was outstanding. Rice does deserve a high speed rating in the game, his acceleration should be avg. Most of the long receptions Rice had, he caught in stride, already moving, where his avg first step or two had no effect. Brandon Marshall probably fits the same description. Long striders is the simple way to put it.

The other players you mentioned should not get a "gift" speed rating just to make them good in the game. I'm sorry. I'll never bend to that way of thinking. If EA can't make the game play correctly where speed isn't everything...... then back to the drawing board is what I say.

Can't agree more with this post. Jerry Rice ran a 4.57 coming out, but actually had great acceleration in and out of breaks. THAT is what allowed him to separate. The guy's RTE rating on Madden should have been a 150 compared to everyone else because he ran routes so crisply...you want to talk about a guy getting a DB to turn somewhere he shouldn't be? Jerry Rice was that guy. Not blazing speed, but great ACC and AGI coupled with amazing RTE...now you have a HOF WR.

I see several guys built in that mold. Marshall is one of them. A bit faster than Jerry was, with slower ACC, but amazing agility. We are talking about a 6-5 WR who ran the 3-cone in 6.96s...amazing for a man his size. How about Ochocinco? Only ran a 4.57 coming out, but ran a good shuttle time of 4.14s, displaying his great acceleration.

The point is that there are lots of guys in the league who are clearly not burners, but get the reputation as being so for other factors whether it be amazing route running, ACC, or AGI. In fact, on the field they see faster than guys who are blazing fast, like Ted Ginn, but who can't run a route correctly to save their lives, thus leveling the edge they would have over a DB with pure athleticism.

The guys at EA too often use speed to make up for these discrepancies which actually makes me angry at times. This is simply, and quite plainly, WRONG. Getting open because you are a great route runner doesn't increase your speed! It simply allows you to get open and makes you...well...a great route runner! There is some sort of disconnect with the guys in Florida who do these ratings because something is clearly missing. Should Mario Williams be faster than Atari Bigby? Who would run faster over a given distance? Can we test this? OH WAIT WE DID! And as I recall Bigby ran the same distance as Mario but he did it .13s faster! So why is Williams an 85 speed and Bigby only an 80?

There is a major disconnect and it needs to be fixed. Use the data you have and fill in the holes with what you see on the field.

[iBlievN5]

Re: Why would someone's speed rating fall in 2-3 years?

well, the initial mistake is taking ratings as "set in stone" numbers, they're evaluations, qualitative data that is subject to reevaluation, that's what happened to JA's speed

[DCEBB2001]

Re: Why would someone's speed rating fall in 2-3 years?

well, the initial mistake is taking ratings as "set in stone" numbers, they're evaluations, qualitative data that is subject to reevaluation, that's what happened to JA's speed

I think the initial mistake is that the EA guys don't do their research and rely on speed too much in their ratings.

[canes21]

Re: Why would someone's speed rating fall in 2-3 years?

I think the initial mistake is that the EA guys don't do their research and rely on speed too much in their ratings.

Yet a lot of people think their ratings are pretty accurate for the most part. Hmm....

[iBlievN5]

Re: Why would someone's speed rating fall in 2-3 years?

I think the initial mistake is that the EA guys don't do their research and rely on speed too much in their ratings.

well your system of using forty times is flawed, plenty of guys don't run fast 40s but routinely break big plays and outrun other players. no system is perfect, saying that "oh they use speed too much" is bs, i don't know too many players whose speeds are overly inflated.

[furtigan]

Re: Why would someone's speed rating fall in 2-3 years?

I am not asking for too much when I want a game to play realsitically without handing out fake ratings to make it so.

You are accepting the fact that EA is in fact lying to us each year then when they keep saying " speed won't be such a dominating factor this year " .

I am accepting the fact that programming is hard, hard work. And that it's a damn video game. No video game of any kind is ever fully realistic.

Jerry Rice probably didn't run a great 40 because his Acceleration wasn't that great..... his top speed however, was outstanding.

So maybe Nick Collins ran a great 40 because he does have great ACC. You can't have it both ways.

But actually, Rice did have terrific acceleration, as did most of the other guys on that list. None of them were track stars, which is what you'd expect if they had great top speed.

I'd love to have a game where ACC and RTE and the other ratings were more important. But we don't have that game, and never have. Complain about that and nobody will argue.

But until they can make the game everyone wants, the poor slob that does the ratings has to use them to make the game realistic. If he did the ratings they way you want now, given the actual game that we have, Yamon Figurs (4.3) would be beating Asante Samuel (4.5) deep routinely. And that's not realistic.

[DCEBB2001]

Re: Why would someone's speed rating fall in 2-3 years?

well your system of using forty times is flawed, plenty of guys don't run fast 40s but routinely break big plays and outrun other players. no system is perfect, saying that "oh they use speed too much" is bs, i don't know too many players whose speeds are overly inflated.

Speed is weighted far too heavily in Madden. It overrules almost every other attribute at any position disregarding Ks and Ps. I will give you several examples speed being overinflated.

1. Mario Williams...ran a 4.70 and has 84 SPD? Are you kidding me?

So he is faster than: WR Kevin Walter, S Bernard Pollard, S Dom Barber, S Dawan Landry, WR James Hardy, S Bryan Scott, WR Dezmon Briscoe, RB Brian Leonard, S Chris Crocker, S Roy Williams, S Gibril Wilson, S Abram Elam, S Larry Asante, WR Jabbar Gaffney, WR B. Lloyd, S R. Hill, RB M. Hart, WR K. Osgood, RB R. Jennings, S S. Considine, S A. Smith, WR J. Urban, RB K. Smith, RB J. Battle, S J. Page, S J. McGraw, S D. Morgan, WR G. Camarillo, WR P. Turner, RB L. Hilliard, S J. Sanders, WR J. Cotchery, WR M. Henry, RB C. Washington, S E. Smith, S D. Coleman, S J. Ihedigbo, RB R. Cartwright, S H. Eugene, WR A. Battle, S R. Clark, S W. Allen, CB J. Burnett, S E. Weddle, S K. Ellison, CB D. Hughes, WR J. Gage, RB L. Blount, S C. Hope, S V. Fuller, and S D. Nickey?

Is that what you are saying? He is faster than half the Safeties in the league with that 84 SPD rating! It's absurd considering that these guys all had better 40 times than Mario and play positions where speed is more valuable. To think that EA isn't doing anything wrong is essentially sticking your head in the sand!

[DCEBB2001]

Re: Why would someone's speed rating fall in 2-3 years?

I am accepting the fact that programming is hard, hard work. And that it's a damn video game. No video game of any kind is ever fully realistic.

So maybe Nick Collins ran a great 40 because he does have great ACC. You can't have it both ways.

But actually, Rice did have terrific acceleration, as did most of the other guys on that list. None of them were track stars, which is what you'd expect if they had great top speed.

I'd love to have a game where ACC and RTE and the other ratings were more important. But we don't have that game, and never have. Complain about that and nobody will argue.

But until they can make the game everyone wants, the poor slob that does the ratings has to use them to make the game realistic. If he did the ratings they way you want now, given the actual game that we have, Yamon Figurs (4.3) would be beating Asante Samuel (4.5) deep routinely. And that's not realistic.

OK first of all, you are correct in saying that Rice had great acceleration. This is what made him so great...he could break in and out of cuts with ease without slowing down. His prowess as a route runner only made it worse on DBs...and having 2 HOF QBs for the majority of your playing career in your prime won't hurt either of course.

Nick Collins actually HAS top speed but lacks that sudden burst, which is contrary to what you are suggesting. The evidence? His 40yd dash split times. He only managed a 1.61 in his first 10 yards. That's a very pedestrian time for a CB/FS (remember he was a CB coming out).

Think about it like this: Since 1999, 2221 players have timed better at the combine or a pro day in the 10 yard split which is used to measure initial burst and acceleration. Many of those players are DEs and LBs who require elite burst to get off of the line, but do not need top end speed.

Now look at the amount of time it took him to cover the remaining 30 yards in his run. He timed out at a 4.36 for 40 yards, but 1.61 of that was lost in the first 10. The 40 yard split is used to measure the total speed of the run. So compared to a guy like Chris Johnson who ran a 4.24, Collins is slower over the total distance. However, Johnson also had better acceleration as he tied the record with a 1.40 10 yard split. Collins was over two tenths slower in the first 10 yards. So who had the better speed throughout the time it where speed is measured?

Well you find this out by simply taking the 40yard time and subtracting the 10yd time. You essentially take out the burst phase and measure the top-end speed phase of the run, where the acceleration has leveled out. So what is a good time for this final 30 yards of the 40 yard dash?

The record of any combine or pro day is held by BJ Tucker a DB out of Wisconsin in 2003 with a time of 2.68s. Next up is Trindon Holiday, Tyrone Calico, and Keon Raymond with 2.71.

Nick Collins is currently 12th since 1999 with a time of 2.75. That's faster than Jacoby Ford, Fabian Washington, CJ Spiller, Champ Bailey, DeAngelo Hall, Devin Hester, Maurice Jones-Drew, Darrius Heyward-Bey, Terrence Newman, Roscoe Parrish, Desean Jackson, Calvin Johnson, Lee Evans, and of course Chris Johnson who only managed a 2.84 over the last 30 yards.

So although Collins may have not accelerated as quickly as these guys who are icons for being rated highly in speed, Collins ran faster at his top end than all but 11 players in over a decade.

Here is a little something from Snaz_89 at FF that may put it into perspective for those who are visual learners:


If you took 3 players who could run 40 yards in 4.89 seconds.
A,B, and C of the examples above.

They would all end up at the finish line at the same.

So at 10 Yards who would be in the lead?

Answer: Player B, followed by Player C and then Player A

Why? Player B had the fastest acceleration, he gets off the blocks faster.

How in the world could Player A and Player C catch up to him when they reach the 40? Especially when he gets to top speed faster than them?

Answer is obvious, he's slower.

So Player B reaches top speed, but the other two catch up to him because they are faster, have a higher top speed, and they manage to reach the finish at the same time.

Start
----10----20----30---40
A
B
C

Around 1 seconds
----10----20----30----40
-A
---B
--C

Around 2 seconds
----10----20----30----40
------A
-----------B
--------C

Around 3 seconds
----10----20----30----40
-----------A
----------------B
-------------C

Around 4 seconds
----10----20----30----40
--------------------A
-----------------------B
---------------------C

Finish
----10----20----30----40
-------------------------A
-------------------------B
-------------------------C

[Franchise-Star-21]

Re: Why would someone's speed rating fall in 2-3 years?

Once ratings of one player like Collins 89 speed are compared to different players at other positions thats when the ratings seem just insanely horrendous.

[DCEBB2001]

Re: Why would someone's speed rating fall in 2-3 years?

Once ratings of one player like Collins 89 speed are compared to different players at other positions thats when the ratings seem just insanely horrendous.

Well that's what I was trying to point out...he's one of the fastest players in the league, not just at his position.

[Franchise-Star-21]

Re: Why would someone's speed rating fall in 2-3 years?

Well that's what I was trying to point out...he's one of the fastest players in the league, not just at his position.

Oh yeah , Once looked at in that point of view, the ratings really look bad.

[King Gro23]

Re: Why would someone's speed rating fall in 2-3 years?

I see where you going but I just dont think all these numbers honestly equate to how players use their speed on sundays. Alot plays into speed, heck even a players recation speed can increase or decrease his speed. So many factors it seems like a near impossible tasks. I give donny credit crap ratings or not, Its a damn hard job.