Phil Frazier is Leaving EA Sports Tiburon

[Cre8]

Re: Phil Frazier is Leaving EA Sports Tiburon

After reading a lot of the dev comments on this thread, I really feel like there was a lot of forward thinking that was being held back because of the ability to blame 'the technology'.

Personally, I think the one thing to blame any/all of this on is the annual sports game cycle. It leaves very little that can really be improved upon in the game and what does get improved looks cosmetic. This isn't because they aren't trying or don't want to change the game in a big way. It is because they really have no real amount of time to make a great game when they really just need to make what the market considers a decent enough game to buy every year.

The only way this cycle stops is if the consumer stops buying the game.

And that will never happen with Madden.

[GiantBlue76]

Re: Phil Frazier is Leaving EA Sports Tiburon

After reading a lot of the dev comments on this thread, I really feel like there was a lot of forward thinking that was being held back because of the ability to blame 'the technology'.

Personally, I think the one thing to blame any/all of this on is the annual sports game cycle. It leaves very little that can really be improved upon in the game and what does get improved looks cosmetic. This isn't because they aren't trying or don't want to change the game in a big way. It is because they really have no real amount of time to make a great game when they really just need to make what the market considers a decent enough game to buy every year.

The only way this cycle stops is if the consumer stops buying the game.

And that will never happen with Madden.

I can't really agree here with this. There are just too many other sports games that are released yearly that have come such a long way. It's not about blaming the technology. The key is to build on what you previously had from year to year along with having competition that pushes you ahead in order to keep pushing the envelope. Madden has had neither. Every year is filled with constant re-writes of the code, removing things that were added the year before, etc. etc. EA never seemed to have a problem with this on last gen. The fact is that with exclusivity, we have the marketing department milking everything they can out of a sub par product in order to sell to the masses each year with minimal investment. One thing I will say, I do believe that many of the developers do want to do more, but their marketing department will no allow that in order to keep the game compelling the following year. This philosophy really only works when there is no competing product. Consumers have no other choice BUT to wait for the following year or they just don't buy an NFL game. There is an unlimited amount of possibilities that can be included in an NFL football game. Madden has such a long way to go still that we probably won't see that mind blowing game from EA ever. Eventually, we may see another company get a stab at it and maybe that will push EA to push the envelope. Until that happens (if it ever does) we probably won't see the larger ticket items we want implemented into the game. By this time you would think that things like player interaction and animations would be something to marvel over.

Honestly though, none of this was unexpected in 2005 when we saw the signing of the exclusive deal. Phil Frazier is a good guy and I wish him and the developers the best. However, I think having some fresh minds on the project could be a really good thing.

[roadman]

Re: Phil Frazier is Leaving EA Sports Tiburon

I can't really agree here with this. There are just too many other sports games that are released yearly that have come such a long way. It's not about blaming the technology. The key is to build on what you previously had from year to year along with having competition that pushes you ahead in order to keep pushing the envelope. Madden has had neither. Every year is filled with constant re-writes of the code, removing things that were added the year before, etc. etc. EA never seemed to have a problem with this on last gen. The fact is that with exclusivity, we have the marketing department milking everything they can out of a sub par product in order to sell to the masses each year with minimal investment. One thing I will say, I do believe that many of the developers do want to do more, but their marketing department will no allow that in order to keep the game compelling the following year. This philosophy really only works when there is no competing product. Consumers have no other choice BUT to wait for the following year or they just don't buy an NFL game. There is an unlimited amount of possibilities that can be included in an NFL football game. Madden has such a long way to go still that we probably won't see that mind blowing game from EA ever. Eventually, we may see another company get a stab at it and maybe that will push EA to push the envelope. Until that happens (if it ever does) we probably won't see the larger ticket items we want implemented into the game. By this time you would think that things like player interaction and animations would be something to marvel over.

Honestly though, none of this was unexpected in 2005 when we saw the signing of the exclusive deal. Phil Frazier is a good guy and I wish him and the developers the best. However, I think having some fresh minds on the project could be a really good thing.

Agree with the top part of your opinion. I know the marketing department has a huge pull on what goes into the game and I think that is garbage.

As far as the last sentence goes, it goes both ways. We know that Roy Harvey from NCAA is coming over and replacing Phil. Is that really a fresh mind? I've seen it where new people replacing people isn't always a good thing, either. I agree it could be a good thing, but it could also go in the other direction.

[DJ]

Re: Phil Frazier is Leaving EA Sports Tiburon

Yes! My wish came true; the thread is still open after returning from my vacation.

[GiantBlue76]

Re: Phil Frazier is Leaving EA Sports Tiburon

Agree with the top part of your opinion. I know the marketing department has a huge pull on what goes into the game and I think that is garbage.

As far as the last sentence goes, it goes both ways. We know that Roy Harvey from NCAA is coming over and replacing Phil. Is that really a fresh mind? I've seen it where new people replacing people isn't always a good thing, either. I agree it could be a good thing, but it could also go in the other direction.

That's certainly true Road. We'll have to wait and see. I know a lot of folks like the idea that the gameplay team is doubling for M13, but a bigger team doesn't always equal better quality. It's more the type of people you have on a team than it is the number of people. I am hoping it shapes up nicely though. We will see how 12 turns out.

[adembroski]

Re: Phil Frazier is Leaving EA Sports Tiburon

I haven't met Roy Harvey yet, but I hear he's a big Head Coach fan, fwiw

[ryan36]

Re: Phil Frazier is Leaving EA Sports Tiburon

I haven't met Roy Harvey yet, but I hear he's a big Head Coach fan, fwiw

Get back in your dungeon, and make a GOTY!!! Be off with you, dev!

[GiantBlue76]

Re: Phil Frazier is Leaving EA Sports Tiburon

I haven't met Roy Harvey yet, but I hear he's a big Head Coach fan, fwiw

that's good news.

[Sanchez_Mareno]

Re: Phil Frazier is Leaving EA Sports Tiburon

I haven't met Roy Harvey yet, but I hear he's a big Head Coach fan, fwiw

Is there anyone who isn't?

[burnwood]

Re: Phil Frazier is Leaving EA Sports Tiburon

The only way this cycle stops is if the consumer stops buying the game.

And that will never happen with Madden.

Well, consumers don't have to stop buying Madden for a cycle to stop. All you need is market disruption by a competitor to slow sales. If you are thinking along the lines that Madden will "never" have competition, then you might be right. However, as we've seen in the case of EA's NBA title, the competition disrupted that franchise for a good period of time.

Just imagine that happening to Madden.

[CRMosier_LM]

Re: Phil Frazier is Leaving EA Sports Tiburon

Well, consumers don't have to stop buying Madden for a cycle to stop. All you need is market disruption by a competitor to slow sales. If you are thinking along the lines that Madden will "never" have competition, then you might be right. However, as we've seen in the case of EA's NBA title, the competition disrupted that franchise for a good period of time.

Just imagine that happening to Madden.

There isn't going to be any competition so the point is moot. BTW nobody saw their sales dip when that other company was selling their game for $20. Why you say...? Because 90% of the 2k buyers also bought Madden and the $20 price point was put in effect because they knew something drastic would have to be done to get sales compared to EA's product... But at the end of they day all it really did was allow games to purchase both.

[Only1LT]

Re: Phil Frazier is Leaving EA Sports Tiburon

There isn't going to be any competition so the point is moot. BTW nobody saw their sales dip when that other company was selling their game for $20. Why you say...? Because 90% of the 2k buyers also bought Madden and the $20 price point was put in effect because they knew something drastic would have to be done to get sales compared to EA's product... But at the end of they day all it really did was allow games to purchase both.

Forever is a very long time. To think that Madden will ALWAYS be the only NFL Football game, for the rest of eternity is a bit of a stretch. There is no way that you can make a statement like that. You don't even know if EA will be around forever, let alone Madden. Bigger companies have gone out of business than EA. The immediate future doesn't look bright in terms of another NFL licensed game, I would concede, but again, forever is a very long time.

As far as $20 price point of 2K5. I would agree that many Madden heads who never gave 2K a chance, said "what the hell" and bought both. I was one of them, but the 90% number isn't based on anything factual. Regardless, even though the direct result of the price drop for that one year, didn't do much to Madden's sales, that doesn't mean that it would always be that way.

The price drop didn't only allow people to buy both, it allowed people who never gave 2K a chance to experience the game. We have no way of knowing how many of those people that experienced it for the first time wouldn't prefer Pepsi to Coke, so to speak.

I know I became a Pepsi drinker.

[johnprestonevans]

Re: Phil Frazier is Leaving EA Sports Tiburon

Good Luck Phil. I like some of the stuff he accomplished with Madden over the past 3 seasons. Eventhough the game still seems to fall a bit short of the goal line, there is no doubt that it's moving in the right direction thanks in large part to Phil. Better tackling. Gameflow. Presentation.

This is pure speculation, but I feel like the big moves at Tiburon reflect a re-focus on Madden for the next-generation of consoles. My bet is that development (though in it's early stages) is underway. I feel like this current generation of Madden (06 - Present) never really fully acheived it's true potential. It was damned from the get-go following the abysmal 06 Xbox360 version. Considering how far it's come, how can we not thank Phil for his recent work.

I wish him the best. I only hope that whoever succeeds him at Tiburon will propel Madden to reclaim the throne as the console defining sports game experience it once was.

[GiantBlue76]

Re: Phil Frazier is Leaving EA Sports Tiburon

There isn't going to be any competition so the point is moot. BTW nobody saw their sales dip when that other company was selling their game for $20. Why you say...? Because 90% of the 2k buyers also bought Madden and the $20 price point was put in effect because they knew something drastic would have to be done to get sales compared to EA's product... But at the end of they day all it really did was allow games to purchase both.

With all due respect, I think you are being a bit short sighted here. It didn't just allow gamers to buy both. Also, you are not realizing that the "other" company was not making a 20.00 price point so that folks would buy their game and NOT buy Madden. They didn't care if you bought Madden as long as you bought THEIR game. 2k sold a butt load of games because it was a great game. Madden sold butt loads of games because it was a great game. It's that simple. The competition really pushes the games to innovate. A perfect example was in 2004, 2k announced online leagues. Madden then scrambled and pushed out their own version to keep pace. This is just an example. The lack of competition has single handedly ruined football gaming this generation and has resulted in the fodder we've been playing the last 7 years.

[GGEden]

Re: Phil Frazier is Leaving EA Sports Tiburon

Tazdevil is right.

I made a couple long similar posts here, here, and here.