There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

[Broncos86]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

But I'm not talking about getting better at Madden. That's not my point. My point is that Madden needs to better reflect actual football, and the passing game DOES NOT DO THIS. I don't care about learning to game the current system. I've said this multiple times now. I want the game itself to reflect football.

I really don't want to sift through a ton of videos that talk about theory of football just to see someone pass the ball over a linebackers head to a receiver on a 15 yard post.

I'm not here to argue about stick skills, and that people who don't control players are lesser players or weaker players or "nubs" or "scrubs" or any of that. I'm not here to debate offline vs online. I'm not here to talk about towels or skill or cosmetics. In this thread, I'm talking about the mechanics of the freaking passing game, not how to get better at the broken system.

[C the Lyte]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

I shall check out that site and get back to you. Also, what system are you guys playing on (sorry for going OT)

[KBLover]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

If Madden players learn how to put the ball where the umping linebacker can't reach it - this entire discussion never happens. Peyton threw the ball CORRECTLY. When Madden players throw CORRECTLY they aren't concerned about the jumping LB. It's only when they throw too low that the LB becomes a concern.

Peyton did throw it correctly - and the LB reacted correctly and his limitation was correct (obviously because physics is never wrong in real life). That's the problem. In Madden, that momentum and timing issue is NOT there. It just isn't. In Madden an LB absolutely could knock that ball down. Their JMP ratings are high enough and there's no momentum gathering (and thus no required timing to gauge for the defender) to futher complicate the picture for the LB.

Not to mention that the pass velocity is horrid on anything below Fast, imo. If throws moved that slow in the real game, nothing would get completed. I have seen OUT OF POSITION LBs (on my team) move to deflect balls because the velocity is crap. Just no.

I don't think anyone will argue this, but if Peyton had thrown that pass low enough for the LB to get a hand on it, it would have been PEYTON'S FAULT for throwing the ball low enough for the LB to get it. Using this same logic - LB momentum and ball trajectory are completely unrelated issues.

Of course it would be Peyton's fault. There are no game play bugs in real life. There are no developer judgments in real life. Physics doesn't need patching in real life. There are no skills that mean too little in real life. Player momentum doesn't need to be introduced to the Real Life Newtonian Physics engine that the NFL uses.

Sadly, Madden is not up to that level.

That said, there is much to be improved in the way of player momentum and how JMP ratings work. NO DOUBT. But that's not the issue as much as the person that doesn't throw the ball right to complete the passes they attempt. The linkage between LB jumps and ball trajectories are tangential. Two separate issues that only seem related because they are seen together whenever someone makes a poor throw.

Or perhaps they are issues because they are not represented correctly? Or am I to assume that Madden has perfect representation of ball flight/passing physics, ball velocity, release time of QBs and player momentum? I play on 8 QB Acc, 30 WR catch, 0 Pass Block vs 60+ Pass Reaction so it's not as though I just want things easy.

Perhaps there wouldn't be so much about the issue if LBs couldn't jump up to max height in an instant? That one little change might fix the whole thing. Then it becomes a risk/reward decision for the QB. Lower/faster pass might be the LB jump, but if he gets up, could be an easy pick - or higher pass, with a bit less velocity, but harder for the LB - but then more time for the DBs to converge. That sounds like the type of decisions a real QB has to make. We don't have that kind of risk/reward decision - it's either very high and risk picks because of the slower velocity or you're screwed.

Like I said - I am a "moderate" in this issue. Yes, the User needs to work on his game, and EA needs to do the same and work on their game. Just like you point out issues to User, the Users should point out issues to EA. That way BOTH "SIDES" improve. I also want more of the real life decisions on the fly that get made in every game. This makes more challenge (more choice = more ways to **** yourself) but also more organic play - instead of the formula method Madden uses. Just like we discussed with the coverage shortcuts the game uses to begin with.

There are flaws in the game, and I don't see why it's wrong to point them out along with anything the user may well need to improve.

[ccdeville]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

But I'm not talking about getting better at Madden. That's not my point. My point is that Madden needs to better reflect actual football, and the passing game DOES NOT DO THIS. I don't care about learning to game the current system. I've said this multiple times now. I want the game itself to reflect football.

I really don't want to sift through a ton of videos that talk about theory of football just to see someone pass the ball over a linebackers head to a receiver on a 15 yard post.

I'm not here to argue about stick skills, and that people who don't control players are lesser players or weaker players or "nubs" or "scrubs" or any of that. I'm not here to debate offline vs online. I'm not here to talk about towels or skill or cosmetics. In this thread, I'm talking about the mechanics of the freaking passing game, not how to get better at the broken system.

I agree with you 100%. The passing game is flawed and we don't need lessons on football, we all watch it and understand it. One of the big problems with the game itself is momentum. Momentum is such a crucial part of football that cannot be ignored. This is how and why a QB will look off a safety or linebacker in order to get him to lean the wrong way or he may pump fake to get that man out of position. Just that little movement is the difference between getting burned and making a play on the ball.

The problem with madden is that the defense runs like robots. Your joystick becomes a virtual magnet. This is why punt returns are so ineffective. You receive the ball and run left, notice all 11 defenders go left in unison, you move right, all 11 move right, you zig-zag so do they. Now do human beings run this way? Of course they don't. And all of this mind you, while never breaking stride and taking the perfect angles no matter what their ratings.

So in the passing game as soon as the ball thrown all 11 defenders are "magneted" to the ball, almost outrunning it to it's destination. Many times you'll call and offensive play and as soon as you press the button to run it, the defense spreads to the exact spots your routes are going to be run. Is that our fault too? Ever watch a real game? When that ball is in the air, most of the time the defenders are at a disadvantage. A football is a 60mph spinning projectile that whisles by before you can even react to it and even when you're ready it's hard to stop.

This is poorly reflected in the game. Just as the punt return, the pass pocket and a host of other things are poorly reflected. This is not user error. Let's place blame where it belongs. With EA itself.

[TNT713]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

But I'm not talking about getting better at Madden. That's not my point. My point is that Madden needs to better reflect actual football, and the passing game DOES NOT DO THIS. I don't care about learning to game the current system. I've said this multiple times now. I want the game itself to reflect football.

I really don't want to sift through a ton of videos that talk about theory of football just to see someone pass the ball over a linebackers head to a receiver on a 15 yard post.

I'm not here to argue about stick skills, and that people who don't control players are lesser players or weaker players or "nubs" or "scrubs" or any of that. I'm not here to debate offline vs online. I'm not here to talk about towels or skill or cosmetics. In this thread, I'm talking about the mechanics of the freaking passing game, not how to get better at the broken system.

Are you telling me that you're going to sit on your hands until EA gets the passing game to your liking? Are you saying that once the game has the momentum and mechanics you want, you'll then begin to worry about improving your reads and technique? Probably not - but that's how it seems. I'm not interested in waiting until Madden is perfect before I begin to improve my skills. When EA 'gets it right' I'll be ready immediately because I'm preparing for that day right now.

I'm not sure where you saw me say anything about gaming the system... Perhaps you misunderstand everything I've ever posted. You may be assuming that I'm advocating engaging in silly antics simply because they work on the game. Nothing could be further from the truth...

I have one goal and one goal only... Regardless of what my opponent does with his brand of football, I want to even or one step ahead of them by bringing the PUREST BRAND OF FOOTBALL possible whether it's schematic, technical, tactical, or executive.

I don't watch YouTube videos either. Most of the stuff online spoon feeds guys the latest antics. When I produced my videos, I focused only on things that are true both in real life and in Madden.

Regarding 'user skills', I strongly recommend that anyone who plays head-to-head user/catch and defend as often as possible. We shouldn't argue about whether user control makes a player better - IT DOES. Being a player that didn't before, I know the difference it makes in a player's game. The difference is overwhelmingly compelling. The numbers speak for themselves - it's not even a debate. After winning 23% of online contests in the last year I didn't manually control players, I've seen a steady exponential increase in the percentage of victories since adopting user control as a policy.

Any player that doesn't manually control players, no matter how good they are, is not as good as they could be. Not even Jesus himself could convince me otherwise.

The passing game is flawed and we don't need lessons on football, we all watch it and understand it.

You think NFL teams practice because they already know everything? You think they pay coaches millions of dollars just for kicks?

EVERY FOOTBALL PLAYER (real or virtual) NEEDS FOOTBALL LESSONS.

I'm almost 40 years old. I've watched football since I was 3. I have real life skills, a knack for picking up on tendencies, and a talent for play design that I discovered at a very early age. With all that 'knowledge,' I still don't know more than Vince Lombardi, John Madden, Job Gibbs, Don Shula, Don Coryell, and a host of other coaches. Not to slight your knowledge, but I'm sure you could stand to learn from these coaches as well. These are my influences and the sources I go to when my Madden game needs work. I'm not the typical guy scouring the internet for the latest gimmick. I only work on skills that are core to football because I only seek out sources of information from football sources so my Madden game simulates what real coaches do.

Of all the sentiments I've seen over the past 10 years, this is by far my least favorite. I can't tell you how many people that disagree with my position regarding Madden have a long list of things they won't do. Since first coming online in Jan 2003 to join MaddenOnline.us, I've never once put a limitation on my responsibility to improve.

I have, however, NEVER made attempts to cheat or take shortcuts just to get a win. In fact, I often DESTROY people who want to take the shortcut route because that approach will never stand up to a player with a solid foundation of skills.

Lemme ask you - When EA programs perfectly enough that the issues you mention are no longer a problem - what will the excuse be then?

I'm not sure about you, but I'm going to be ready for that day when it gets here - instead of starting to get ready when it arrives.

Later

[Big FN Deal]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

I agree with you 100%. The passing game is flawed and we don't need lessons on football, we all watch it and understand it. One of the big problems with the game itself is momentum. Momentum is such a crucial part of football that cannot be ignored. This is how and why a QB will look off a safety or linebacker in order to get him to lean the wrong way or he may pump fake to get that man out of position. Just that little movement is the difference between getting burned and making a play on the ball.

The problem with madden is that the defense runs like robots. Your joystick becomes a virtual magnet. This is why punt returns are so ineffective. You receive the ball and run left, notice all 11 defenders go left in unison, you move right, all 11 move right, you zig-zag so do they. Now do human beings run this way? Of course they don't. And all of this mind you, while never breaking stride and taking the perfect angles no matter what their ratings.

So in the passing game as soon as the ball thrown all 11 defenders are "magneted" to the ball, almost outrunning it to it's destination. Many times you'll call and offensive play and as soon as you press the button to run it, the defense spreads to the exact spots your routes are going to be run. Is that our fault too? Ever watch a real game? When that ball is in the air, most of the time the defenders are at a disadvantage. A football is a 60mph spinning projectile that whisles by before you can even react to it and even when you're ready it's hard to stop.

This is poorly reflected in the game. Just as the punt return, the pass pocket and a host of other things are poorly reflected. This is not user error. Let's place blame where it belongs. With EA itself.

Everything in this post I agree with but the bold part I was just witnessing tonight watching my gf's son play M12. He was in practice mode, "labbing" running backwards to the opposite endzone with Darren McFadden and trying to fake out the defense to score. I watched this travesty of football playout as McFadden, the other offensive players nor the defenders ever seemed to gradually get fatigued or slow down and the defenders mimicked his every stick twitch with no respect of locomotion.

All I could think about was, here is this 11 y/o kid understandably having a blast but no tester at Tiburon, in a year where bringing in "tourney" gamers to expose issues was highly touted, saw this or a problem with it. I don't mean this to be a personal shot at any developer but I honestly don't understand how so many self described lovers of NFL football can continue to produce Madden without any factory mode/setting where stuff like this and a host of other things are fundamentally addressed.

[ccdeville]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

Are we even speaking the same language? You have no idea how I or anyone else is playing the game, what we know or don't know about football or who the hand belongs to that types these words you're reading. Nobody ever said we don't know how to throw the ball or play the game Do you assume we're just complaining just for the sake of complaint? As if we're stomping like spoiled children that can't get our way when the game won't do what we want it to.

You talk of improving my game, but you have no idea who you're even talking to. How would you know what i'm doing? I never mentioned it one way or the other. I brought up observations on the way the game is programmed which aren't getting addressed in this discussion. Learning from Don Shula or Vince Lombardi or any other coach has no bearing on this fact. They coach real football and there are things about this game that would make even their knowledge meaningless because there are aspects and elements missing that real football has.

Ever see those Madden shows where the madden geek plays the professional? What happens 99.9% of the time? The madden geek whoops the pro. Does the NFL players knowledge have any bearing on how he plays? So when you speak to us don't assume you have a monopoly on football knowledge. You're speaking in a condescending tone as if we're idiots who know nothing about football and you need to teach us something. As if the game is just fine, and there's something wrong with us.


But that's not even the point here, the point of the entire thread is that the passing game is flawed. You didn't bother to deny anything I said as being untrue. To pretend these flaws don't exist is being dishonest.

We are not programmers who can program our own football game (if i could, i would) there is no competition to EA this is all we have and improvements need to be made.

That is the point.

[baller7345]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

Everything in this post I agree with but the bold part I was just witnessing tonight watching my gf's son play M12. He was in practice mode, "labbing" running backwards to the opposite endzone with Darren McFadden and trying to fake out the defense to score. I watched this travesty of football playout as McFadden, the other offensive players nor the defenders ever seemed to gradually get fatigued or slow down and the defenders mimicked his every stick twitch with no respect of locomotion.

All I could think about was, here is this 11 y/o kid understandably having a blast but no tester at Tiburon, in a year where bringing in "tourney" gamers to expose issues was highly touted, saw this or a problem with it. I don't mean this to be a personal shot at any developer but I honestly don't understand how so many self described lovers of NFL football can continue to produce Madden without any factory mode/setting where stuff like this and a host of other things are fundamentally addressed.

I imagine its quite difficult to have 11 different "brains" so to speak when it comes to how players react to something. Whether its a engine problem or simply something that the current consoles can't process is something we'll never know with how secretive EA is. Hopefully they'll find a way to avoid things like this in the future though.

Their is some hope as they have managed to fix it somewhat in the passing game. If you are playing man coverage then the players don't instantly react to the ball being throw unless they are covering that guy. You can throw a slant on the right side of the field and the WR running the out route on the left will finish his route with defender in tow. Now in zone you when you throw it everyone body turns and runs towards the ball even when they aren't facing it but there is hope that expanding on the technology and coding they have written into the man coverage a.i. can help alleviate problems like this.

[C the Lyte]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

In regards to real football and the replication of it in a video game, someone on this site in another thread said that it cannot be done due to the camera angles. It's what makes the LE's in this game relatively in-effective. The user will ALWAYS see his or her blind spot, will always see where the ball is and is going, and can basically see the whole field and see what is going on on it.

So, what you see on Sunday will never be 100% what you see in Madden, or any other football game for that matter.

I think TNT's point is you got what you got, now perfect it. Despite his delusion that ball trajectory is not flawed, a lot of what he is saying in these posts are pretty spot on IMO. Scheme and skill almost always trump cheese and 1 play superheroes.

[Big FN Deal]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

I imagine its quite difficult to have 11 different "brains" so to speak when it comes to how players react to something. Whether its a engine problem or simply something that the current consoles can't process is something we'll never know with how secretive EA is. Hopefully they'll find a way to avoid things like this in the future though.

Their is some hope as they have managed to fix it somewhat in the passing game. If you are playing man coverage then the players don't instantly react to the ball being throw unless they are covering that guy. You can throw a slant on the right side of the field and the WR running the out route on the left will finish his route with defender in tow. Now in zone you when you throw it everyone body turns and runs towards the ball even when they aren't facing it but there is hope that expanding on the technology and coding they have written into the man coverage a.i. can help alleviate problems like this.

Baller, why do people persist in repeating, what imo is, just another EA talking point? It's been a long time but I don't recall having these issues in other football games and even the other two that were created this generation of consoles. Even more strange than that, is the numerous gamers that claim plenty of this stuff they have been able to address using sliders. So if that's true, the 11 man being hard to program thing and the whole gambit of excuses that have been offered up, don't pass the smell test.

I have paid probably too close attention to what has been said and done this generation with Madden a little late but it doesn't take a ton of research to form an educated guess of some things. An option to hide ratings/OVR is not difficult by the admission of Madden developers nor is tuning pass interference, pass trajectory, locomotion, pocket importance or field goal difficulty, just to name a few. However, the reasoning behind these things not being tuned to a more authentic representation in any factory game mode/setting in Madden, is because of the concept of balancing what is realistic versus what gamers find fun, in all factory modes/settings in Madden.

The tools to address these must already be available if slider set creators and users are to be believed, which I do. It's constantly stated how impossible it is to please everybody but yet that's what they have continued to attempt in Madden with the default gameplay setting.

Someone, anyone please explain to me how it makes more sense to attempt to create one impossible gameplay tuned setting than to make two separate factory tuned gameplay settings, with customization to find a personal sweet spot? A casual that just wants fun quick classic Madden gameplay should easily be able to find that right out the box and someone like me that wants as authentic a NFL gameplay challenge as possible should be able to find that factory setting preset in the box. Then all the stuff in between like camera views, slider sets, player editing, etc, should be left to personal preference through customization options.

In closing this rant, if EA simply refuses to do any of that, how about providing the community more ways to actually share what they are able to develop after getting Madden home. EA seems so concerned about this "straw man" perfect football game, even if created through community networking, causing people not to buy next year's version. However, there is no such thing as the perfect football game and by trying there best to avoid perceived "perfection", EA has prevented Madden from being better.

[KBLover]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

Baller, why do people persist in repeating, what imo is, just another EA talking point? It's been a long time but I don't recall having these issues in other football games and even the other two that were created this generation of consoles. Even more strange than that, is the numerous gamers that claim plenty of this stuff they have been able to address using sliders. So if that's true, the 11 man being hard to program thing and the whole gambit of excuses that have been offered up, don't pass the smell test.

RTS games can have 11 units moving in all different directions, each with their own objectives, goals, and priorities. Let alone a game like the Total War series that can have, literally, 1000s of troops each individual man with his own experience level, targeting priority, sight line, etc.

Why can't EA borrow that mentality and set each of the 11 players on the side with their own objectives, goals, and priorities, based on the play that is chosen.

After all, that's what the building blocks of a play is, the individual assignment of each player. The play has it's own objective, but the execution is carried out by each player having a specific assignment to carry out, which carries with it it's own goals and objectives that are striven for by the player.

Just like in a squad based RTS like CoH, the whole squad has an objective, and then when in a fight, some of the soldiers "see" some good cover, they go to it and fight from it. Another sees an opportunity to flank an enemy solider who's cover is only on the front, and moves to take it, etc.

That's a lot like the mentality of a team. The whole team has an objective on that play, but each player reads what's happening and can adapt accordingly, especially if what they see warrants it (OLB is expecting pass pre-snap, but sees it's a run, he sees a way to get around the edge into the backfield - the player AI "pathfinds" a way to the HB). The MLB is set to go at the A-Gap, but he reads the HB moving to a B-gap, he adjusts is objective and acts.

Or in a notorious one for M12 - Everyone is in zone, the QB scrambles - the defense should adjust to come up to stop the scramble, even if it might leave them vulnerable because they don't want to sit there and give up 10 free yds. Of course, the QB can play off of that and run once, and then throw it over the top of his head the next time to the WR coming back to the QB (making his own adjustment)

That's playing football. All the player AI's making smart, adaptive choices, reading space, and acting on their own "eyes".

It's not easy, but it's not impossible or unreasonable to expect, especially in, what, the 24th edition of the Madden come M13?

[TNT713]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

Are we even speaking the same language? You have no idea how I or anyone else is playing the game, what we know or don't know about football or who the hand belongs to that types these words you're reading. Nobody ever said we don't know how to throw the ball or play the game Do you assume we're just complaining just for the sake of complaint? As if we're stomping like spoiled children that can't get our way when the game won't do what we want it to.

You talk of improving my game, but you have no idea who you're even talking to. How would you know what i'm doing? I never mentioned it one way or the other. I brought up observations on the way the game is programmed which aren't getting addressed in this discussion. Learning from Don Shula or Vince Lombardi or any other coach has no bearing on this fact. They coach real football and there are things about this game that would make even their knowledge meaningless because there are aspects and elements missing that real football has.

Ever see those Madden shows where the madden geek plays the professional? What happens 99.9% of the time? The madden geek whoops the pro. Does the NFL players knowledge have any bearing on how he plays? So when you speak to us don't assume you have a monopoly on football knowledge. You're speaking in a condescending tone as if we're idiots who know nothing about football and you need to teach us something. As if the game is just fine, and there's something wrong with us.


But that's not even the point here, the point of the entire thread is that the passing game is flawed. You didn't bother to deny anything I said as being untrue. To pretend these flaws don't exist is being dishonest.

We are not programmers who can program our own football game (if i could, i would) there is no competition to EA this is all we have and improvements need to be made.

That is the point.

Oh contraire mon fraire,

I think you got it backward. There's a good reason my website is called MaddenUniversity. What started in 1995 with a fascination with the "Football Pro" PC series turned into an intense focus on the Madden communities specifically after Madden went online on consoles. I study football, Madden, the websites that cover it, and the people who play it. As such, I can tell much more than I should about the gaming habits of players simply by the attitudes they espouse - especially when they are challenged. Combined with more than a decade of experience as an IT support professional whose strength is pinpointing disconnects between people and their machines - I'm uniquely qualified to make assessments of what people need to know to better perform football simulation in the Madden game.

I'm going to guess that you specifically, based on the 2 posts I've read in this thread, have memberships to less than 5 Madden sites. I'll also guess that your bookshelf has few books about the strategy and history of football. I'll also guess that playing and performing at Madden simply isn't one of your top 5 priorities. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

On the other hand, I have memberships to more than 35 Madden sites, football is virtually the only subject I buy books about, and developing myself and others abilities to perform better at Madden is definitely in my top 3 priorities (God, Family, Football).

If I had tact, patience, and an understanding nature - I'd probably be coaching somewhere. But I don't - so I seem condescending because I have no intention of patting people on the head. I see every finger pointed at EA as a finger that isn't on the sticks using what EA gave us to use. I believe waiting for someone else to solve a problem is the least effective method of problem solving.

In fact, the only reason MaddenUniversity.com exists is because in November 2003 when I needed the most help adapting to the rigors of online play - there were exactly ZERO websites geared toward a player like myself. When MaddenOnline.US launched I thought it would be the place where Id be able to get the support I needed. NOPE. It became what I call a den of pansies masquerading as honorable players. I had to teach myself how to build websites just so players like myself who are unwavering in their tenacity would have a place to go (problem solved without waiting for someone else to do it).

If I have a weakness, it's that I don't care about anyone's feelings - not even my own. I care about excellence in my personal performance regardless of whether I have to overcome my own weaknesses, my opponent's, or EA's. Just because the battlefield isn't setup like I want it doesn't mean I can't fight. And if there's nothing you know about me - KNOW THIS - Win or lose, I LOVE THE FIGHT. There is no victory without sacrifice and I won't hesitate to put my pride on the chopping block for a shot to win because the thrill of COMPETITION is unmatched.

So when you acknowledged that you already know enough about football - I summed you up as the either the best football mind to have ever lived or a fool. The way I see it, if real football coaches need coaching, as evidenced by organizations like the American Football Coaches Association (AFCA), we probably need some coaching too. If NFL players practice for hours on end for months before touching the field, we should too. And if we can't learn anything from the thoughts, processes, and ideas of Vince Lombardi, George Halas, and Don Coryell - who can we learn from?

Nothing personal (feel free to take it that way), but I'm certainly not going to take the word of a guy that hasn't dedicated the past 10 years of his life to adapting and translating legitimate real life strategies and tactics to Madden over the words of the best football minds of all time. Nor will I blame EA for a lack of interest in doing so, like I see others doing time and time again...

YES, there are things about real life that don't translate to Madden. NFL players get beat by Madden players in Madden is identical to why a great Madden player would get beat by a real NFL player on the field. Ray Lewis isn't spending hours on end perfecting his stick skills, and Madden players aren't spending hours to increase their speed and strength.

EA has built a platform for which we can fantasize about football - it's up to us to utilize the tools available to implement what we know about football within the electronic environment... We must move differently that we would in real life. Imagine swimming on land or running underwater. Neither is an effective means of locomotion. The environment you're moving thru dictates the way we must move. Madden is no different.

I'd rather play basketball with and against a team of serious competitors than with folk who just want the exercise - even if the rim is bent, the ball has lumps, and the court is uneven. Madden isn't perfect and never will be - but playing with "non-compete" players is by far the worst thing about the series. I hate playing soft players so much that I haven't played a single game of Madden since Christmas Eve. I probably won't play another game until the 'part-time' and 'half-committed' players to lose interest and step away, leaving only the most passionate players to duke it out for til August when Madden 13 drops.

Later

[Big FN Deal]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

@TNT, It's times like these that you completely lose me. Suggesting Madden has that much in common with real life football other than the general parameters of competition, I totally disagree with. Here it is 2012 and you claim to have discovered that Madden possessed this strategic link to football around 2003, with this link, presumably going back even further. C'mon TNT, I can't think of any console football gameplay to date, that has been that deeply structured in football fundamentals, especially not Madden.

If someone gave you the same argument for playing that other football game, along with your open admission of what you think that other game represented better, you would still choose Madden. That's cool but while your priority for a football video game is that it be "madden", for others it's that it be as NFL authentic as possible. So for you to keep trying to assert how NFL authentic a video game Madden actually is, while at the same time admitting to having little experience with NFL authenticity represented in other football games for many years, completely undermines your credibility of knowing what constitutes adequate NFL authenticity in a football game, for diverse NFL gamers.

I get it, you love Madden, it gives you an unmatched video game thrill, probably similar to what I found in NFL2k years ago. I also understand, you enjoy the challenge of applying football principles to Madden to compete against all manner of tactics used by others and that it represents the NFL adequately, FOR YOU. However, the fact that you or anyone else can apply football principles to Madden and be successful does NOT equate to it being NFL authentic or an adequate NFL representation for others.

You keep putting the cart before the horse by offering advise on how to play Madden better, to people that are discussing Madden representing NFL football better before they even want to play.

[ccdeville]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

"YES, there are things about real life that don't translate to Madden."

And this is exactly what we said about the passing game.

I'm smart enough to realize that there are people out there who just "love to fight" no matter what. To a defense lawyer his client is innocent no matter what the evidence says.

We simply make observations about what we see which still stands as truth.

[TNT713]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

@TNT, It's times like these that you completely lose me. Suggesting Madden has that much in common with real life football other than the general parameters of competition, I totally disagree with. Here it is 2012 and you claim to have discovered that Madden possessed this strategic link to football around 2003, with this link, presumably going back even further. C'mon TNT, I can't think of any console football gameplay to date, that has been that deeply structured in football fundamentals, especially not Madden.

If someone gave you the same argument for playing that other football game, along with your open admission of what you think that other game represented better, you would still chose Madden. That's cool but while your priority for a football video game is that it be "madden", for others it's that it be as NFL authentic as possible. So for you to keep trying to assert how NFL authentic a video game Madden actually is, while at the same time admitting to having little experience with NFL authenticity represented in other football games for many years, completely undermines your credibility of knowing what constitutes adequate NFL authenticity in a football game, for diverse NFL gamers.

I get it, you love Madden, it gives you an unmatched video game thrill, probably similar to what I found in NFL2k years ago. I also understand, you enjoy the challenge of applying football principles to Madden to compete against all manner of tactics used by others and that it represents the NFL adequately, FOR YOU. However, the fact that you or anyone else can apply football principles to Madden and be successful does NOT equate to it being NFL authentic or an adequate NFL representation for others.

You keep putting the cart before the horse by offering advise on how to play Madden better, to people that are discussing Madden representing NFL football better before they even want to play.

BigFN...

Remember when you said my approach was Zen-like because I said there are only 3 strategic football fundamentals that matter - Personnel, Position, and Tempo?

On any level, in any environment, these are the ONLY CONCEPTS THAT MATTER. There is absolutely no instance where this isn't 100% accurate. I challenge you or anyone else to find falsehood in the statement. There are NO HOLES in the theory. If you get the right players to the right place at the right time - you win. PERIOD. End of story.

A diverse football gaming appetite isn't required to recognize these values as universal. If doesn't matter if you're playing in the back yard, on a console, or in the Super Bowl - Personnel, Position, and Tempo are all that matter.

I can't claim credit for the philosophy... I read a paper in 1997 written by Micheal Fornal about the Front Page Sports series back when I still played all the football video games where he contrasted military strategy with that of football.

I've since read Sun Tsu's "Art of War" and found that his war strategies relied heavily on these same concepts while also giving a method to determine exactly how and why to manage personnel, position, and tempo to win his battles.

So when I hear people talking about what fundamentals that may not be accurately reflected in Madden (physics, momentum, etc...) I contrast those against whether they diminish the value of Personnel, Position, or Tempo. THEY NEVER DO. Unless an issue devalues the only factors that matter - Personnel, Position, and Tempo - it's just and excuse.

Furthermore, if someone were making the same excuses we see the make about Madden about 2K, Gameday, Blitz, or any other football game - I'd tell them the same exact thing.

Later