There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

[Broncos86]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

I guess I'll say it again: we're talking about what's wrong with the mechanics of the passing game in Madden, not how to get better at the current system. Bottom line. It's just THAT simple. If you want to talk about playing Madden in its current form, go make a new thread. It's really just that simple.

TNT, if you want to talk about theorycrafting in Madden 12, make a new thread. In this thread, the topic is the mechanics of the passing game in how they relate to actual football. We're not talking about who is better at Madden 12 passing.

As a side note: When I play Madden 12/NCAA 12, I do what I can to get better at the game. I've made this suggestion in multiple threads. So let's not go any further about skill or desire for skill. Cool?

[Big FN Deal]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

BigFN...

Remember when you said my approach was Zen-like because I said there are only 3 strategic football fundamentals that matter - Personnel, Position, and Tempo?

On any level, in any environment, these are the ONLY CONCEPTS THAT MATTER. There is absolutely no instance where this isn't 100% accurate. I challenge you or anyone else to find falsehood in the statement. There are NO HOLES in the theory. If you get the right players to the right place at the right time - you win. PERIOD. End of story.

A diverse football gaming appetite isn't required to recognize these values as universal. If doesn't matter if you're playing in the back yard, on a console, or in the Super Bowl - Personnel, Position, and Tempo are all that matter.

I can't claim credit for the philosophy... I read a paper in 1997 written by Micheal Fornal about the Front Page Sports series back when I still played all the football video games where he contrasted military strategy with that of football.

I've since read Sun Tsu's "Art of War" and found that his war strategies relied heavily on these same concepts while also giving a method to determine exactly how and why to manage personnel, position, and tempo to win his battles.

So when I hear people talking about what fundamentals that may not be accurately reflected in Madden (physics, momentum, etc...) I contrast those against whether they diminish the value of Personnel, Position, or Tempo. THEY NEVER DO. Unless an issue devalues the only factors that matter - Personnel, Position, and Tempo - it's just and excuse.

Furthermore, if someone were making the same excuses we see the make about Madden about 2K, Gameday, Blitz, or any other football game - I'd tell them the same exact thing.

Later

TNT, sometimes you seem to be just one big contradiction, imo. You state that position, personnel and tempo can be applied to any situation and suggest that people do it with Madden instead of making "excuses". However, you admit to refusing to apply these things to play any other football game but Madden, while making "excuses" why.

To put it simply, the same way you feel about not playing anything that doesn't "feel" like Madden, is the same way others feel about not playing Madden when it doesn't "feel" like the NFL.

[N51_rob]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

Something needs to be done, get so tired of watching receivers with really high route running ratings going against corners with low awareness, and/or man coverage skill, not only not being able to separate at the top of the route, but seeing these corners take one step and be infront of the route. Couple that with receivers never going to fight for a ball at the highest point. (Before someone says user catch with the WR it is a no switch league) What is the point of having big body pass catchers when they can't shield the DB from the ball.

I've been coaching QBs at the HS level for about 5 years now. One of the things that we teach is that the QB must know the routes on each play. We have the same offense at the JV and Varsity level with the same terminology. We do this so that when out kids are juniors and seniors they can start to anticipate. We tell them they shouldn't be watching the receivers run their routes, they should be watching (reading) the defense so that they can anticipate where the ball should go. Anticipation is huge in the offense that we try to run, basic spread. 3 wide base with a TE and RB.

In Madden 12 if you make anticipation throws you will be in for a world of hurt. You need to watch your receivers because if you try to anticipate a throw and throw the ball too early in the game, which is actually the right time in the real world you can get burned. Its highly frustrating to say the least. People clamoring for a route based passing system, pretty much have it about right. The passing game on the whole needs to be revamped.

[Big FN Deal]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

Something needs to be done, get so tired of watching receivers with really high route running ratings going against corners with low awareness, and/or man coverage skill, not only not being able to separate at the top of the route, but seeing these corners take one step and be infront of the route. Couple that with receivers never going to fight for a ball at the highest point. (Before someone says user catch with the WR it is a no switch league) What is the point of having big body pass catchers when they can't shield the DB from the ball.

I've been coaching QBs at the HS level for about 5 years now. One of the things that we teach is that the QB must know the routes on each play. We have the same offense at the JV and Varsity level with the same terminology. We do this so that when out kids are juniors and seniors they can start to anticipate. We tell them they shouldn't be watching the receivers run their routes, they should be watching (reading) the defense so that they can anticipate where the ball should go. Anticipation is huge in the offense that we try to run, basic spread. 3 wide base with a TE and RB.

In Madden 12 if you make anticipation throws you will be in for a world of hurt. You need to watch your receivers because if you try to anticipate a throw and throw the ball too early in the game, which is actually the right time in the real world you can get burned. Its highly frustrating to say the least. People clamoring for a route based passing system, pretty much have it about right. The passing game on the whole needs to be revamped.

If not route based passing how about some kind of maximum passing or read n lead system that allows the User to attempt to place the ball where ever they want, without being tethered to the receiver. As much discussion as I have had about revised QB vision, a system that moves the QB according to where I am attempting to place the football would completely negate the need for QB vision or a throw away button. This would free up the buttons (LB,RB,X,Y,A,B) to represent different types of pass attempts and trajectory.

Icon passing, "that's for babies", so add some true User skill to passing, at least on All Madden, make Users place their throws and choose a pass type. Ditto for the kicking game.

[baller7345]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

Baller, why do people persist in repeating, what imo is, just another EA talking point? It's been a long time but I don't recall having these issues in other football games and even the other two that were created this generation of consoles. Even more strange than that, is the numerous gamers that claim plenty of this stuff they have been able to address using sliders. So if that's true, the 11 man being hard to program thing and the whole gambit of excuses that have been offered up, don't pass the smell test.

Ok if I miss a point or am off base then it is because I got rid of the rest of your post to conserve space.

As long as we are talking about kick off return a.i. where they all fall the ball carrier its been around awhile. Its always been doable in Madden and I have done it in 2k both college and pro. I haven't played backbreaker so its hard for me to assume on that one. There aren't many games, if any, that have 22 separate individuals with a unique a.i. routine for every one of them. That is hard to handle most of the time because anything other than a basic a.i. routine is immensely complex. Its the reason we still have every baddie in a fps running under the same seek cover and then pop out and shoot script. Its the reason we still have scripted boss fights in many games (they have a set number of attacks and only use certain ones after you knock off so much health).

Even in games that say the encounters are unscripted that doesn't really fully apply. Skyrim may have unscripted dragon encounters but each and every dragon will fight with the exact same tactics because its written into their code. Put 12 on the screen and you are going to be getting the same 12 attack patterns in some for or another no matter what. We as gamers tend to over estimate the ability of programmers to program a capable a.i. around the foundation that is the game. I've yet to see anything in any game to tell me that they can make multiple a.i.'s on the same screen each act under a completely unique script to them.

With all that said it can be improved 10 fold but EA is either lazy (I doubt the programmers are really lazy) or the engine they are working with is so unworkable that the best they can do is throw on a band-aid and move on. If they every get around to building a completely new engine (one that doesn't build on the foundation of the old one) then we may finally get some actual answers to what is holding the game back.

This may be completely off topic and may not be addressing what you are bringing up as I sort of just started typing and ended up here so if I make no sense feel free to tell me so.

[Big FN Deal]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

Ok if I miss a point or am off base then it is because I got rid of the rest of your post to conserve space.

As long as we are talking about kick off return a.i. where they all fall the ball carrier its been around awhile. Its always been doable in Madden and I have done it in 2k both college and pro. I haven't played backbreaker so its hard for me to assume on that one. There aren't many games, if any, that have 22 separate individuals with a unique a.i. routine for every one of them. That is hard to handle most of the time because anything other than a basic a.i. routine is immensely complex. Its the reason we still have every baddie in a fps running under the same seek cover and then pop out and shoot script. Its the reason we still have scripted boss fights in many games (they have a set number of attacks and only use certain ones after you knock off so much health).

Even in games that say the encounters are unscripted that doesn't really fully apply. Skyrim may have unscripted dragon encounters but each and every dragon will fight with the exact same tactics because its written into their code. Put 12 on the screen and you are going to be getting the same 12 attack patterns in some for or another no matter what. We as gamers tend to over estimate the ability of programmers to program a capable a.i. around the foundation that is the game. I've yet to see anything in any game to tell me that they can make multiple a.i.'s on the same screen each act under a completely unique script to them.

With all that said it can be improved 10 fold but EA is either lazy (I doubt the programmers are really lazy) or the engine they are working with is so unworkable that the best they can do is throw on a band-aid and move on. If they every get around to building a completely new engine (one that doesn't build on the foundation of the old one) then we may finally get some actual answers to what is holding the game back.

This may be completely off topic and may not be addressing what you are bringing up as I sort of just started typing and ended up here so if I make no sense feel free to tell me so.

Yeah, I doesn't really address the question of if many of the gameplay issues gamers complain about, other gamers claim to address them using the available slider sets that Madden developers provide, why can't the developers do the same thing with presumably even more potent tuning tools?

[TNT713]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

TNT, sometimes you seem to be just one big contradiction, imo. You state that position, personnel and tempo can be applied to any situation and suggest that people do it with Madden instead of making "excuses". However, you admit to refusing to apply these things to play any other football game but Madden, while making "excuses" why.

To put it simply, the same way you feel about not playing anything that doesn't "feel" like Madden, is the same way others feel about not playing Madden when it doesn't "feel" like the NFL.

Not sure how you arrived at this... I've played countless football video games on dozens of platforms and have employed these three principles (whether I knew it or not at the time) in every single one of them.

Back in the day, when there was a far wider and more diverse selection of football gaming options and I virtually played them all. Whether on PC, console, handheld, or electric. Heck, I even played 11 on 11 when I was still young (and stupid) enough to play tackle with no health insurance. Not once have I ever played football of any type without using these concepts. AND NEITHER HAS ANYONE ELSE.

For more than 20 years, I played everything, but don't anymore. I'm old enough now that I've been a grown *** man for longer than I was a child. I'm almost due for a prostate exam and a colonoscopy for God's sake.

The notion that I can't understand what NFL simulation is because I haven't played every game ever devised is ludicrous. I shouldn't have to still play every football game from now until the end of time to be credible on the issue of whether Madden has value as a football simulation or not. It doesn't matter how many more NFL football simulations there are now or in the future - I'm happy playing just one with an intense focus on playing it well instead of a diffusing my efforts on several games and mastering none.

That said, what you started with deflective rhetorical double-talk was actually followed by a really good analogy about why you, I, and potentially others disagree. The folks you refer to in the analogy, are obviously upset that there aren't as many football gaming options as there used to be - and want things from the games they used to play adopted in Madden somehow.

Unfortunately, there's countless guys like me who played those other games, didn't like them, and chose Madden because of it's 'feel' not despite it.

Later

[baller7345]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

Yeah, I doesn't really address the question of if many of the gameplay issues gamers complain about, other gamers claim to address them using the available slider sets that Madden developers provide, why can't the developers do the same thing with presumably even more potent tuning tools?

Ok this time I'll try not to go off on a tagent.

The slider sets that people use to eliminate things like the DB's running the routes before the WR and the jump swats by LB's are simply eliminating the "win" conditions for the defensive players. The dice rolls are going against the defensive players no matter what so they never trigger any of those reactions. Now just because they don't get any of their "win" moments doesn't mean they can't be in position to make a play but that is what the slider sets are doing. Its the same principle with how you could somewhat get rid of the warp catches in M10 with slider sets. The warp catch happened because the game was saying that this player wins him matchup and catches the ball and in order to do that he has to warp. Adjust the sliders and you make it so he never wins in that situation and thus he never warps.

Why EA doesn't tune their base sliders or offer a sim slider set is a complete mystery. Maybe the higher ups believe that they need to have clear cut moments where anybody can tell who won a given matchup, regardless of realism, or the casual fan won't want to play the game.

Now for things like all madden I'm under the impression that that is the only option they have for making the game play more difficult. When there weren't as many BS moments on that difficulty (last gen) I always blew the cpu out and they rarely ever scored. Now I still win but its closer. Other games like the 2k basket ball games have just as much BS when you get on their harder difficulty settings so it isn't just Madden. It seems developers do not seem to think they can create a challenging difficulty without making the game cheat you on every occasion it gets.

[Big FN Deal]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

Not sure how you arrived at this... I've played countless football video games on dozens of platforms and have employed these three principles (whether I knew it or not at the time) in every single one of them.

Back in the day, when there was a far wider and more diverse selection of football gaming options and I virtually played them all. Whether on PC, console, handheld, or electric. Heck, I even played 11 on 11 when I was still young (and stupid) enough to play tackle with no health insurance. Not once have I ever played football of any type without using these concepts. AND NEITHER HAS ANYONE ELSE.

For more than 20 years, I played everything, but don't anymore. I'm old enough now that I've been a grown *** man for longer than I was a child. I'm almost due for a prostate exam and a colonoscopy for God's sake.

The notion that I can't understand what NFL simulation is because I haven't played every game ever devised is ludicrous. I shouldn't have to still play every football game from now until the end of time to be credible on the issue of whether Madden has value as a football simulation or not. It doesn't matter how many more NFL football simulations there are now or in the future - I'm happy playing just one with an intense focus on playing it well instead of a diffusing my efforts on several games and mastering none.

That said, what you started with deflective rhetorical double-talk was actually followed by a really good analogy about why you, I, and potentially others disagree. The folks you refer to in the analogy, are obviously upset that there aren't as many football gaming options as there used to be - and want things from the games they used to play adopted in Madden somehow.

Unfortunately, there's countless guys like me who played those other games, didn't like them, and chose Madden because of it's 'feel' not despite it.

Later

I never intended to imply that notion. What I basically stated was you can't relate to people that place priority on how NFL authentic the football plays in Madden opposed to playing Madden being the priority, like it is for you. Rest assured your are not the only grown *** man on here that knows what they prefer, so I don't see the point in you trying to "enlighten" others about Madden.

You have posts in this thread trying to explain to others about how touch passes can sometimes be workarounds to overcome passing issues in Madden. However, you often seem to overlook that 1) a workaround for the symptom is not a fix for the problem and 2) for some people the problem is that, a workaround is needed in the first place.

You and I are of course entitled to our opinion about anything but I find it hypocritical to advocate for gamers to see Madden from a different perspective while you consistently seem to refuse to do the same.

You say your intention is to hopefully provoke Madden gamers to be more self reliant for problem solving, making for a better Madden experience, now, throughout the community and I commend you for that. However, you should also understand for some people the problem with Madden is the way somethings are designed and the only available self help, now, for that, is discussing what's wrong so developers hopefully notice.

[Big FN Deal]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

Ok this time I'll try not to go off on a tagent.

The slider sets that people use to eliminate things like the DB's running the routes before the WR and the jump swats by LB's are simply eliminating the "win" conditions for the defensive players. The dice rolls are going against the defensive players no matter what so they never trigger any of those reactions. Now just because they don't get any of their "win" moments doesn't mean they can't be in position to make a play but that is what the slider sets are doing. Its the same principle with how you could somewhat get rid of the warp catches in M10 with slider sets. The warp catch happened because the game was saying that this player wins him matchup and catches the ball and in order to do that he has to warp. Adjust the sliders and you make it so he never wins in that situation and thus he never warps.

Why EA doesn't tune their base sliders or offer a sim slider set is a complete mystery. Maybe the higher ups believe that they need to have clear cut moments where anybody can tell who won a given matchup, regardless of realism, or the casual fan won't want to play the game.

Now for things like all madden I'm under the impression that that is the only option they have for making the game play more difficult. When there weren't as many BS moments on that difficulty (last gen) I always blew the cpu out and they rarely ever scored. Now I still win but its closer. Other games like the 2k basket ball games have just as much BS when you get on their harder difficulty settings so it isn't just Madden. It seems developers do not seem to think they can create a challenging difficulty without making the game cheat you on every occasion it gets.

That is my point in a nutshell. LOL

[RogueHominid]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

This thread doesn't seem to be going anywhere, but I'll throw the two cents I put in the bucket a while ago back in.

There are lots of situations where throwing deep over the middle is tough, but there are lots of situations where you can do it just fine.

The game's not perfect, but guess what: you can edit the players' ratings and change the game so it plays like you want. Less than 10 minutes per franchise game gets you much better jumping and reaction from LBs and DBs. You just edit the jump and PRC ratings.

Or you could edit the PRC slider.

Or you could up the user catch slider to mess with new animations.

Or you could up the CIT rating to get new catch animations and better fighting for the ball.

Or you could give your player the spectacular catch attribute so they compete for the ball on passes over the middle better.

All of these things work. I don't mean to condescend, but if the game needs changing, you actually can change this with relatively little effort. It's super easy and effective and it gets you out of this counter-productive discussion.

[Big FN Deal]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

This thread doesn't seem to be going anywhere, but I'll throw the two cents I put in the bucket a while ago back in.

There are lots of situations where throwing deep over the middle is tough, but there are lots of situations where you can do it just fine.

The game's not perfect, but guess what: you can edit the players' ratings and change the game so it plays like you want. Less than 10 minutes per franchise game gets you much better jumping and reaction from LBs and DBs. You just edit the jump and PRC ratings.

Or you could edit the PRC slider.

Or you could up the user catch slider to mess with new animations.

Or you could up the CIT rating to get new catch animations and better fighting for the ball.

Or you could give your player the spectacular catch attribute so they compete for the ball on passes over the middle better.

All of these things work. I don't mean to condescend, but if the game needs changing, you actually can change this with relatively little effort. It's super easy and effective and it gets you out of this counter-productive discussion.

Likewise not to beat a dead horse but you can't adjust any of that in an online franchise. If ALL the offline options were available for online franchise and we had some kind of share feature, a lot of these discussions, would go away or at least decrease.

[DarkFudge]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

This thread doesn't seem to be going anywhere, but I'll throw the two cents I put in the bucket a while ago back in.

There are lots of situations where throwing deep over the middle is tough, but there are lots of situations where you can do it just fine.

The game's not perfect, but guess what: you can edit the players' ratings and change the game so it plays like you want. Less than 10 minutes per franchise game gets you much better jumping and reaction from LBs and DBs. You just edit the jump and PRC ratings.

Or you could edit the PRC slider.

Or you could up the user catch slider to mess with new animations.

Or you could up the CIT rating to get new catch animations and better fighting for the ball.

Or you could give your player the spectacular catch attribute so they compete for the ball on passes over the middle better.

All of these things work. I don't mean to condescend, but if the game needs changing, you actually can change this with relatively little effort. It's super easy and effective and it gets you out of this counter-productive discussion.

Let me jump in here with some thoughts on this whole discussion. The original title of my post was not How Can I Improve the Deep Passing. Or What Band Aids can I apply to get Better results in the Passing game. If it was then I can appreciate some of the suggestions for ways to try and get better results. I titled it the way I did for a reason. Not to sound smug in any way, but all of these basic suggestions (and more) have been applied before I came to my conclusions and wrote this post which I really hope the developers and new addition, KOLBE, read and take stock in how serious of an issue this is.

And to say 'the passing game is far from perfect' is a huge understatement, and a state of affair that I only wish was the case...If it was, I wouldnt have wrote this post. The reality of it is, that the passing game is atrocious and has also seen some serious setbacks and degradations since its Pre Nex Gen Console days. As I said in the original post. When you can pop in Madden or NCAA 2004 or 2005 and see a much more dynamic passing experience play out on the field, there's a serious problem with the current state of affairs for Madden.

The slider and player rating tweaks, (not to mention coaching slider priority tweaks and others) that have been mentioned will only address the win percentages of the interactions between defender and reciever and a few other minor things. However, the core problem(s) still remain (as I mentioned above in the first post) And this extends much deeper than any slider, coaching scheme or rating adjustment can fix (or better yet...band aid)

A majority of the problems lie in the following:
- limited range of win/loss animations triggered per pass battle
- lack of true locational physics (ie players really reaching arms out to catch passes in any vicinity)
- dice rolls that determine results before they actually happen (ie leaping defender picking off ball in one handed air grab...reciever cannot break it up, or defender will not drop it)
-tight spacing on the field yeilds safties able to cover far too much ground and ball hawk way too many out routes
-Limited dynamic passing trajectory controls yield too many frustrating MLB picks or swats


The passing engine needs a total full blown rework...or Monster Tweak under the hood...at least. But I am convinced, its a mess!! in 2012, Madden's passing game should be much further evolved than it is now....pretty animations and textures simply dont make up for a simplistic engine underneath.

[Smoke6]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

Another issue I have is that defenders/wrs DO NOT DROP ONE HANDED PASSES WHEN THEY GET HIT WHILE IN THAT ANIMATION!

I know one handed catches are very rare type of deal, but in madden its overwhelming to see people not drop those type of catches but drop easy picks or balls thrown to them wide open hitting them right in the numbers.

Most of the passes thrown in this game are completely broken, it seems every year its always a route that outshines the defense no matter what. This year its SLANT OUTS and DEEP POSTS, and these are very hard to shutdown when you are playing against the Packers or any elite team or top WR.

Same stuff different year as always fellas, its gonna take a lot to get madden where it needs and should be. You can run the same play all day long, it shouldnt turn out the same each time. I dont care if the player ran the same play to try and counter it, the AI at some point has to recognize whats going on and show that they are making their own adjustments to the situation. I have yet to see that since last gen.

What EA needs is the an ENGINE they can continue to ADD TO rather than TAKE FROM each and every year and go from their. This game should have been featured rich from things that been in the game from the past 20 some odd years. I wish I could show you guys the old school halftime shows with J. Brown and the NFL REDZONE type of stuff that went on after your game was finished or finishing up.

It seems like EA has really lost touch and has EA Tiburon doing way too much than they can handle. Back then in their defense, they only had 1-2 platforms to code for, now that have over 6! IOS, Android, PSP, DS, 360, and PS3. Thats way too much and something is not gonna get the attention that it should and thus the reason we are here discussing these issues.

Dedication is there, but the ALMIGHTY DOLLAR is the ALL SEEING EYE as of late. The day we get a quality Madden from EA, is the day I go out and play the powerball and win. Just business fellas, its hard to grasp their logic about it, but it is what it is im afraid, but im still holding out hope tho!

[Jimi XIII]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

Yes. Spot on. It's very bland. No part of football gaming should really be on the same level as Tecmo at this point. In Tecmo it was either a catch, int, drop or inaccurate incompletion (which you really don't see that much still imo) but not bobbled passes or anything special or dramatic to add to the game-play and make it more exciting. There are other aspects that can use better dynamics to add to the experience as well that should have evolved by now but catching is one of the big ones that kind of gets overlooked. Great post.