What does simulation mean to you?

[PGaither84]

Re: What does simulation mean to you?

What are realistic stats and scores?

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/201109...ghts&tab=recap

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/201109...ghts&tab=recap

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/201109...ghts&tab=recap

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/201110...ghts&tab=recap

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/201110...ghts&tab=recap

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/201110...ghts&tab=recap

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/201110...ghts&tab=recap

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/201110...ghts&tab=recap

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/201111...ghts&tab=recap

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/201111...ghts&tab=recap

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/201111...ghts&tab=recap

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/201111...ghts&tab=recap

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/201111...ghts&tab=recap

Those are all just from this season, and not all of them. Should I keep going?

Stats and scores don't bother me. I agree with BezO that with realistic game play, the stats and scores will go with it.

Simple things like how many plays you CAN run in the final 2min of a half contribute to scoring... and how fast the offense can hurry up to the line after a big play.

When I try to play, I try to play as sim as possible. I like to recreate the game I love to watch on TV. I personally go as far as letting my players finish their cadence and call out their audibles or hot routes before doing something else, and trying to call time out if I can't get what I want in time instead of just clicking 7 things off while i hear my QB say "Zee zee! zee! zze zee! zee! zee! zze zee!" or hear big ben yell "Ohio! Ohio! Ohio! Ohio! Ohio!" Instead I let Tom come to the line and say "ready, one-tweny [120] one-tweny set" which is normally when the Pats snap the ball in real life... and so do I, but I also sometimes do the same thing they do and wait to call my audible or hot route after that cadence where he will yell "Y 20. Go go!"

To me, it's those little fun things that don't really mean anything but help make the game feel more real. Maybe I will throw in a quite the crowd down arm flap... especially on the road to taunt.

As far as on the field game play, I prefer to play as realistic to the players as possible too in both my game plan and how I move on the field. I NEVER do the long drop back. I might roll out of the pocket or side step a little, but even when I do, I am thinking about who I am using when I do that. I'll take sacks as Peyton Manning and look to run late with Alex Smith. I will favor one side when I scramble over another. I won't hold the right trigger when I am moving with Tom Brady. I will just move the stick.

I am so torn with the Juke and Spin moves and "L stick running" in Madden. I don't twitch, but I will change direction. The Spin move is too good in Madden. The game treats it like a juke move and will literally force defenders into a fall down animation if it works. It looks so dumb and is far too effective. The only balance is that you actually lose some momentum and speed unlike the "L stick" running people talk about. however, I am not against a simple cut back across the field. It's that "S" shaped wiggle that people do online that is just as broken and unrealistic.

I can play sim style in Madden even though Madden can't give me a true simulation experience. I can enjoy the game play even though at times it bothers me to no end.

[Big FN Deal]

Re: What does simulation mean to you?

LOL. I just made a post in another thread referring to Bezo and LBz, before I ever read this thread, pretty much talking about the same thing.

Anyway, to me simulation in a video game means creating a virtual world that represents and emulates all applicable parameters of it's real life counterpart, then turning the User loose in that world to attempt whatever they want. Those represented and emulated parameters then realistically dictate the outcome of in game actions without directly restricting User control.

It irks me when I read people stating that taking control away from the User is making the game more "sim" with things like Fair Play and Surprise Onside Kick allowances. It's representing the applicable risk/reward to things like this that should inherently dictate the effectiveness of things like these that cause them to occur less and not some arbitrary direct limitations.

Things like stats and scores should just byproducts of a good NFL simulation, imo, because it's team play and there are other variables that effect those besides each teams defense.

If Madden focused on representing the applicable real life parameters of NFL football as accurately as possible, like penalties, injuries, fatigue, play design assignments/responsibility, timing, mental/physical/skill/social player limitations, physics, coaching, environmental effects and player to player interaction, everything else would fall into place to simulate a NFL football experience and challenge.

EDIT* Forgot aging and wear-n-tear for Career modes.

[BezO]

Re: What does simulation mean to you?

?Simple things like how many plays you CAN run in the final 2min of a half contribute to scoring... and how fast the offense can hurry up to the line after a big play.

I got the impression that the clock in the final 2 minutes is one of those fun factor things. With a dev team claiming they want the game as sim as possible, this is one of the 1st/easiest things I expect to be addressed, or at least be made an option.

As far as on the field game play, I prefer to play as realistic to the players as possible too in both my game plan and how I move on the field. I NEVER do the long drop back. I might roll out of the pocket or side step a little, but even when I do, I am thinking about who I am using when I do that. I'll take sacks as Peyton Manning and look to run late with Alex Smith. I will favor one side when I scramble over another. I won't hold the right trigger when I am moving with Tom Brady. I will just move the stick...

...I can play sim style in Madden even though Madden can't give me a true simulation experience. I can enjoy the game play even though at times it bothers me to no end.

I try to do the same. I also try to run plays I feel unfold more realistically, like inside runs & quick passes. I tend not to finish games because of this though as situations arise where I need to do other things.

I try to curb my gameplay to account for gameplay flaws, but sometimes it gets in the way. I just took a look at Cam's stats. 126 rushing attempts, 706 yards, 14 TDs. That's almost 8 rushes a game. But what happens if you run with Cam 8 times in Madden? So I try not to run as much with Cam & other fast QBs. But in attempt to make the game more realistic, I'm actually making it less realistic by not using players like their real life counterparts.

[carnalnirvana]

Re: What does simulation mean to you?

i would not mind losing or winning 45 -7 but its the manner how its done kills the fun.

if a rookie is going to throw 4 picks to my D, fine, but it sucks when your players make un-sim plays.

i play as sim as possible but there are some picks that are picks in madden that in real life the WR would be considered wide open...(over the shoulder picks)

players are never truly open unless they are 10 yds apart.

[LBzrule]

Re: What does simulation mean to you?

Let me give an example of what I'm talking about. And this is not an indictment of MVP who came up with it. Hell I give him all the credit in the world for finding ways to get pressure on the QB in this crazy game. But look at this:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/-w_KGqkuR_w" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


This is the game we are playing folks. Five rushers vs Five blockers and no matter what you do someone comes in untouched. Your OL cannot handle a Tex stunt so you don't put it in the game, yet it cannot handle this either. You basically have to keep seven players in to block this blitz. No matter how you slice it. I don't care if you can get around it. It displays major weaknesses and this has to stop being excused. This video isn't that bad though. There are others, from a realism standpoint, that are a hell of a lot worse, where you only have 2 or 3 guys rushing and someone always gets in untouched off the edge.

Before they would have the backside tackle peel and run all the way to the other side and that mess is still in the game too if you are setting up a true overload. But if you set up a BS way the tackle does not peel to the backside and let the guy run right in. Trench work is hard work in real life and probably the hardest thing to code in a football video game. But improvements in this area have been done in another game. I'm not sure how EA can make the improvements in their game but they need to be made as best as EA can with what they have. I just need to see some indication. It's not just the interaction it's the entire OL/DL systems and behaviors. This includes fronts and alignments along with blocking schemes (quarter slides, half slides, HB chips and release; combo blocking and release; arc running, twists stunts, backer blitzes with twists, tex and toe stunts, blitzing on the run, blitzing from space - see blog).

While I would be very upset that pass trajectory did not get addressed or WR route running, DB technique ect., I would be willing to put all of that aside and them just spend an entire year on OL vs DL. OL schemes vs stunts and blitzes. Have them create as many possibilities and scenarios as possible. Have multiple ways for how things can be effective on both sides of the football.

I really think the front seven is where a fun, realistic and simulation football game begins. To ignore it and keep ignoring it IMO is the impending death of the spirit of the game they are trying to create (at least for me anyways; if this is not address this game is dead for me). Of course movement is just as important. Ehh nothing to do at work today.

[LBzrule]

Re: What does simulation mean to you?

i would not mind losing or winning 45 -7 but its the manner how its done kills the fun.

if a rookie is going to throw 4 picks to my D, fine, but it sucks when your players make un-sim plays.

i play as sim as possible but there are some picks that are picks in madden that in real life the WR would be considered wide open...(over the shoulder picks)

players are never truly open unless they are 10 yds apart.

And even then, depending on the situation, the game decides that your QB needs to under throw the football to the defender instead of the WR who is out in front of him

[BezO]

Re: What does simulation mean to you?

Anyway, to me simulation in a video game means creating a virtual world that represents and emulates all applicable parameters of it's real life counterpart, then turning the User loose in that world to attempt whatever they want. Those represented and emulated parameters then realistically dictate the outcome of in game actions without directly restricting User control.

Tough to say it any better than that. That quote needs to be posted somewhere in EA's studio.

It irks me when I read people stating that taking control away from the User is making the game more "sim" with things like Fair Play and Surprise Onside Kick allowances. It's representing the applicable risk/reward to things like this that should inherently dictate the effectiveness of things like these that cause them to occur less and not some arbitrary direct limitations.

I was hoping to hear from folks that maybe use these types of rules. I know there are Madden gamers out there that feel some of the sim responsibility is on the user.

[KBLover]

Re: What does simulation mean to you?

What are realistic stats and scores?

I won't go so far to say stats/scores are everything but I will say they are very important to me. I don't want my QB getting 5000 yds if he's not of the skillset to do it. I don't want my team constantly scoring 30 points a game with the conservative offense I have to call, especially if they aren't peaking.

I want to see their performance and production (i.e. stats) ebb and flow with their confidence and opposition. I want to see my elite MLB rack up tackles because he has the skills. Then when I play with a non-elite MLB, I want to see that difference in production/stats.

I want the season-end stats to come out reasonable to both the NFL range and the individual player abilities.

When I try to play, I try to play as sim as possible. I like to recreate the game I love to watch on TV. I personally go as far as letting my players finish their cadence and call out their audibles or hot routes before doing something else, and trying to call time out if I can't get what I want in time instead of just clicking 7 things off while i hear my QB say "Zee zee! zee! zze zee! zee! zee! zze zee!" or hear big ben yell "Ohio! Ohio! Ohio! Ohio! Ohio!" Instead I let Tom come to the line and say "ready, one-tweny [120] one-tweny set" which is normally when the Pats snap the ball in real life... and so do I, but I also sometimes do the same thing they do and wait to call my audible or hot route after that cadence where he will yell "Y 20. Go go!"

Heh, I do that too. I thought I was crazy for caring about things like that. I know it's forced me to take delays or timeouts if I take too long "getting the play in" and then I still try to adjust of the defense comes out looking like it can stop it, and if time runs out, maybe I will/won't take the timeout depending on the situation.

As far as on the field game play, I prefer to play as realistic to the players as possible too in both my game plan and how I move on the field. I NEVER do the long drop back. I might roll out of the pocket or side step a little, but even when I do, I am thinking about who I am using when I do that. I'll take sacks as Peyton Manning and look to run late with Alex Smith. I will favor one side when I scramble over another. I won't hold the right trigger when I am moving with Tom Brady. I will just move the stick.

I probably play a pocket passer to "statue-esque" because I know they wouldn't move much. I do try to evade pressure/slide, but I don't think I've ever run with a QB under 75 SPD. I figure 70-80, they'll look to run late, 80-85, they'll run more readily if they face pressure, 86+ they'll go when ever they see green grass and can't find someone open in a couple seconds.

One thing I've tried to do, and haven't so far, is come up with a way to incorporate the tuck and run trait. Maybe like "sometimes" is "run if I get pressure" or if I can't see anyone open after 3 seconds.

I am so torn with the Juke and Spin moves and "L stick running" in Madden. I don't twitch, but I will change direction. The Spin move is too good in Madden. The game treats it like a juke move and will literally force defenders into a fall down animation if it works. It looks so dumb and is far too effective. The only balance is that you actually lose some momentum and speed unlike the "L stick" running people talk about. however, I am not against a simple cut back across the field. It's that "S" shaped wiggle that people do online that is just as broken and unrealistic.

I use the left stick, but like you do with a cut back or to hit a different hole if the point of attack isn't there. If it is there, I try to hit it and if it closes up, it closes. If it's not there, I'll look a gap or two over to try to find an opening. Though I like to try sticking with the one-cut-and-go running style.

I don't use the spin move at all. I use juke sometimes to just change direction so the back actually makes a cut. I've read the reaction time impacts success of moves, so on default all-madden and such, it probably ends up working too much if that's true (and could be why). I'll truck with a power back to try to fall forward and try to juke just before contact with a smaller guy to try to take less of a full hits and maybe squeeze a yard or two more.

Completely agree with those quick wiggles/turns.

I can play sim style in Madden even though Madden can't give me a true simulation experience. I can enjoy the game play even though at times it bothers me to no end.

Pretty much my view, especially on the defensive side of the ball, but the OL is probably right up there too.

To answer BezO's questions he posed to one guy, I think my growing knowledge (by no means do I consider myself an expert on the game and very likely have less knowledge than many) is exposing me to more and more of the game's flaws/limitations, especially on the strategic side but also on the play of some of the position groups.

I definitely want better player movement. Watching combine might be go "I want to see THAT" - especially that LB drill. Insane. That footwork, that precision control of movement, the reactions since the player has no idea when the coach will move the ball again.

The footwork and explosive burst change of direction in that 5-10-5 drill. The stick the foot in the ground and cut in the HB drill. The turn of the hips the DBs/WRs used to change directions and cuts on their routes. All of that.

To answer BezO's original question - I'm a guy that wants all 3. I want realism in scores/outcomes AND realistic difficulty AND realistic movement and assignment awareness.

While I would be very upset that pass trajectory did not get addressed or WR route running, DB technique ect., I would be willing to put all of that aside and them just spend an entire year on OL vs DL. OL schemes vs stunts and blitzes. Have them create as many possibilities and scenarios as possible. Have multiple ways for how things can be effective on both sides of the football.

I really think the front seven is where a fun, realistic and simulation football game begins.

Completely agree.

[RGiles36]

Re: What does simulation mean to you?

I probably should've asked this differently to trigger deeper examples on the positive side. Can you give an example or 2 of what Madden does right regarding strategy?

A couple quick ones:

Azzure (TSS) and I were playing against one another at CD. At one point, he was picking my defense apart with his passing game. So when you're getting picked apart IRL, one of the basics in football is to bring more pressure. I did that during the game, and I started forcing him into some three and outs. I lost the game still, but strategically, we were essentially having a chess match. I adjusted & countered to what he was doing and vice versa.

You can also strategize by looking at matchups. Say I'm playing as the Cowboys offline. If I know that the CPUS's 2nd corner isn't a good press corner, but a press is called, I know that there's a good chance Miles or Dez is going to beat that coverage and make a play.

Those are basics. I conceded that the strategy/gameplanning element of Madden is vanilla. But you are able to translate some concepts of real-life football strategy into Madden (i.e. countering the pass rush w/ quick passes).

[GiantBlue76]

Re: What does simulation mean to you?

Tough to say it any better than that. That quote needs to be posted somewhere in EA's studio.

I was hoping to hear from folks that maybe use these types of rules. I know there are Madden gamers out there that feel some of the sim responsibility is on the user.

Bezo, I couldn't agree with Big more than I do. He's 100% right on there. I run a league, and we have similar rules. It's frustrating that you have to have rules though. It makes running leagues much harder. If there wasn't such an advantage to doing things like zig zag running, turboing to the sideline with the QB, running no huddle without getting tired etc. etc. I shouldn't be able to run full speed to the right then throw a dart to my left. If I am running to my left with a DB and the pass is thrown to my right, I shouldn't be able to simply "Warp" to the right to make the pick. If you take away these arcadey items, you instantly increase the realism. The game is more challenging and you actually have to call good plays to achieve more success. You may not have a run all game that gets you more than 3 or 4 yards. That's football. I don't want to see bombs thrown into triple coverage and caught 4 times a game, or defenders warping through receivers to make interceptions. I don't want to see a linebacker leap 7 feet high only to intercept a bullet pass with one hand. Of all things, this was the BIGGEST reason I made a move from Madden to 2k in 2001. The player movement didn't allow for these kinds of antics. You essentially don't need a slew of rules when running a league. In Madden, it's a great game assuming people play the way you want them to. However, policing gameplay is not at all fun and is probably the number one reason leagues tend to fail or flame out.

[BezO]

Re: What does simulation mean to you?

I won't go so far to say stats/scores are everything but I will say they are very important to me. I don't want my QB getting 5000 yds if he's not of the skillset to do it. I don't want my team constantly scoring 30 points a game with the conservative offense I have to call, especially if they aren't peaking.

I want to see their performance and production (i.e. stats) ebb and flow with their confidence and opposition. I want to see my elite MLB rack up tackles because he has the skills. Then when I play with a non-elite MLB, I want to see that difference in production/stats.

I want the season-end stats to come out reasonable to both the NFL range and the individual player abilities.

Do the scores & stats have priority over how you acheive them?

Are you confident that realistic movement, interaction & ratings would result in realistic scores & stats.

I feel some of the ratings have to be miniupulated for the sake of realistic stats, to account for some missing elements. For example, CBs have to tackle better because of the lack of contain logic & engaged player lateral movement. DEs have to shed blocks better for the same reasons. Has this type of minipulation bothered you?

[BezO]

Re: What does simulation mean to you?

A couple quick ones:

Azzure (TSS) and I were playing against one another at CD. At one point, he was picking my defense apart with his passing game. So when you're getting picked apart IRL, one of the basics in football is to bring more pressure. I did that during the game, and I started forcing him into some three and outs. I lost the game still, but strategically, we were essentially having a chess match. I adjusted & countered to what he was doing and vice versa.

I always had trouble getting pressure despite blitzing. Were you able to do this without moving defenders around like that vid LB posted? Did you get your pressure from CPU controlled players or user controlled players? Did you get the pressure from the players you expect? Were you using Dallas & the 3-4? Did you find certain types of blitzes more effective than others?

You can also strategize by looking at matchups. Say I'm playing as the Cowboys offline. If I know that the CPUS's 2nd corner isn't a good press corner, but a press is called, I know that there's a good chance Miles or Dez is going to beat that coverage and make a play.

I don't like how it looks a lot of times, but the results are often realistic.

What I think needs to be addressed in this area is the inside/ouside leverage aspect.

[LBzrule]

Re: What does simulation mean to you?

I always had trouble getting pressure despite blitzing. Were you able to do this without moving defenders around like that vid LB posted? Did you get your pressure from CPU controlled players or user controlled players? Did you get the pressure from the players you expect? Were you using Dallas & the 3-4? Did you find certain types of blitzes more effective than others?

I don't like how it looks a lot of times, but the results are often realistic.

What I think needs to be addressed in this area is the inside/ouside leverage aspect.

Per Russell's comment on noticing the 2nd CB. I do not like the way this is currently. In online games you cannot know who the 2nd CB is unless you are really paying attention AFTER the play. Sometimes guys will move their CB's around and I have no clue on offense who is where. The sad thing about it is that in the older Madden and NCAA games you had an on field display of who was lined up where.

[m1ke_nyc]

Re: What does simulation mean to you?

Respecting fundamentals.

Weight
Speed
Momentum
Footplanting
Field of vision
Physics
Gravity

these things could bring a simulation product.

[RGiles36]

Re: What does simulation mean to you?

Do the scores & stats have priority over how you acheive them?

Probably an area where you and I differ (although I know this question was aimed at KB).

I get realistic stats & scores in 12 min quarters, but I also feel like the way those results are achieved is realistic too. I don't have any exploits that I use against the AI. I'm usually consistent w/ running the ball and I'll usually pop a couple for 20+ yards. I'm not getting 80 yards every time I run tosses or anything like that.

I don't get 300 passing yards every game; in fact, they're hard to come by with the combo of my slider set and my skill level.

So for the most part, I feel the way my stats are achieved is legit. I think my interceptions get inflated some times, but that's another conversation.

I always had trouble getting pressure despite blitzing. Were you able to do this without moving defenders around like that vid LB posted? Did you get your pressure from CPU controlled players or user controlled players? Did you get the pressure from the players you expect? Were you using Dallas & the 3-4? Did you find certain types of blitzes more effective than others?

Oh, I'm a basic player. I may move my one player around, or do the show blitz here and there, but nothing crazy to manipulate the game. Yes, the CPU controlled players put the pressure on. I got there sometimes w/ Ware or someone on the D-line. Yes, I used Dallas and the 3-4. Yes, some blitzes are more effective than others -- just as some blitzes leave you more exposed than others. They go hand & hand...