Madden vs Real Football

[megatronisabeast]

Re: Madden vs Real Football

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/scorecasting/09/15/kelley.pulaski/index.html

Here is an example of someone that goes for it on fourth down. They win a ton of games too! I am still upset they embarrassed my alma matter. : (

[Big FN Deal]

Re: Madden vs Real Football

This really highlights the differences between what works at different levels of football. From pop warner to JV to HS to collegiate to the Pros, the individual talent and physical make up of personnel has a strong effect on what is successful.

It's a shame that something like this that has been successful at what I presume to be a private HS level, is just as effective in Madden, an alleged NFL level simulation game.

[TheNumber35]

Re: Madden vs Real Football

This really highlights the differences between what works at different levels of football. From pop warner to JV to HS to collegiate to the Pros, the individual talent and physical make up of personnel has a strong effect on what is successful.

It's a shame that something like this that has been successful at what I presume to be a private HS level, is just as effective in Madden, an alleged NFL level simulation game.

And therein lies my main problem with Madden. While I will not sit here and claim to have the knowledge of the game of football that guys like you, LBz, KB, BeZo and many others on this site...I know enough about defensive and offensive assignments, schemes, adjustments, etc. to know that Madden just doesn't cut it if it wants to be an NFL level simulation game. When blitz schemes don't work right and MLBs are keying the fullback every time...something isn't right. Give me a break, if the players had to follow the laws of physics and the interactions were right, then EA wouldn't have to put in these stupid gimmick fixes (like the spy and contain tactic mentioned in a previous post) to make the game "more sim" it would just be sim!

Claiming this game accurately portrays the NFL game is ridiculous and subsequently, its equally ridiculous to claim that a game needs to be as exclusive as the NFL (in terms of who is allowed to play) in order to be an accurate simulation of the game. Its a video game, and other professional sports games have done a pretty good job of accurately creating the style of the game without mirroring the hired/fired part of things.

The NFL is more complex than some of those professional sports, but there is no way that a game can't achieve what we are asking for by now...look at games like Mass Effect and Skyrim, if your telling me that we can't create a functioning, realistic NFL simulation after playing those games you are just plain stupid. If developers can have movie quality graphics during gameplay in Mass Effect and 1000s of hours of well-developed and visually beautiful content on Skyrim's disk, don't dare tell me it isn't possible.

[Soprano00]

Re: Madden vs Real Football

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/201...ski/index.html

Here is an example of someone that goes for it on fourth down. They win a ton of games too! I am still upset they embarrassed my alma matter. : (

cheesers

[TNT713]

Re: Madden vs Real Football

Come on man. That statement is simply not true. You know it, I know it, and the American people know it! Stop trying to pull the wool over these good taxpaying citizen's eyes to feed your obsession for blindly defending Madden. How long are you going to keep "sticking up" for Madden even when it is clearly busted in so many ways? (rhetorical question, I already know the answer to that). I am in no way saying that YOU use money plays, but to say they do not exist at all is grossly irresponsible and blatantly unethical. I have had conversations with known tournament players that labbed Madden's Offensive playbooks (like the Broncos book last year) and found plays that had "warp routes" where the WR would warp forward and catch the ball every single time for huge yards. There were/are certain playbooks that had wheel routes that are basically money every time; heck, I have even seen leagues here on OS ban the use of 4 Verts because it was darn near a money play.

I myself found a play in the Detroit Lions playbook that I could get 7-15 yards every time against Man Coverage with Tony Scheffler, and I stopped using that play because of it. Last year I got complaints on an owner in my Online Franchise who admitted that he went with the same 2 passing plays on 3rd down because they "worked every time". After playing a scrimmage against him (so that he could show me what he was doing), guess what I found out? Yup, he was using MONEY PLAYS! He ran the same play over and over, and it didn't matter, the idiotic slot and outside cornerbacks would "run" into each other EVERY TIME creating a "glitch pick" that would spring Dallas Clark for an 18+ yard gain every single time. Switching to zone didn't help either, because Zone Coverage completely sucked in Madden 11, so now what do you do?

Money plays have and probably always will be a part of Madden. I am not saying that EA put them in the game on purpose, but to totally deny their entire existence is not only extremely negligent, but downright criminal.

For shame!

Hold up - Wait. Guilty. Madden is my favorite game of all time. I buy electronics to support my Madden habit. So what?

At no point have you ever - in the history of reading posts - seen me hold up Madden as the standard of perfection. NEVER HAPPENED ANYWHERE, at ANYTIME, EVER. Fact is, if you care enough to look, I have stated for years that neither EA nor anyone else will ever create the perfect football game. EVER is a really long time.

That said, just because EA doesn't make a perfect product doesn't mean the people playing the imperfect product are playing the product perfectly.

I don't care what play you run or how you run it on offense - the tools are available to stop the play on defense and vice versa. When the tools improve, I'll be sure to incorporate the improved tools to simulate the NFL in my games...

I've played literally thousands of online games against. Less than 0.1% of my opponents have been prearranged since Madden '03.

There is no such thing as a Money Play - Only plays that are money against certain people.

That pick play you mention... I'd defend it by staggering the depth of my coverage men. By changing their position, the location where the 'pick' normally occurs moves to another location. Any opponent relying on the pick to break Clark open at the normal spot will be disappointed and probably throw into the teeth of the coverage instead of the open spot they anticipated. Also, 4 Verts is one of my favorite plays to defend because so many people THINK it's money. I'll let an opponent throw it 3 times - after that it's CLAMPS.

And therein lies my main problem with Madden. While I will not sit here and claim to have the knowledge of the game of football that guys like you, LBz, KB, BeZo and many others on this site...I know enough about defensive and offensive assignments, schemes, adjustments, etc. to know that Madden just doesn't cut it if it wants to be an NFL level simulation game. When blitz schemes don't work right and MLBs are keying the fullback every time...something isn't right. Give me a break, if the players had to follow the laws of physics and the interactions were right, then EA wouldn't have to put in these stupid gimmick fixes (like the spy and contain tactic mentioned in a previous post) to make the game "more sim" it would just be sim!

Claiming this game accurately portrays the NFL game is ridiculous and subsequently, its equally ridiculous to claim that a game needs to be as exclusive as the NFL (in terms of who is allowed to play) in order to be an accurate simulation of the game. Its a video game, and other professional sports games have done a pretty good job of accurately creating the style of the game without mirroring the hired/fired part of things.

The NFL is more complex than some of those professional sports, but there is no way that a game can't achieve what we are asking for by now...look at games like Mass Effect and Skyrim, if your telling me that we can't create a functioning, realistic NFL simulation after playing those games you are just plain stupid. If developers can have movie quality graphics during gameplay in Mass Effect and 1000s of hours of well-developed and visually beautiful content on Skyrim's disk, don't dare tell me it isn't possible.

The fact that you mention Skyrim and Mass Effect means you don't understand who you're dealing with. Maybe I take SIM to the ultimate extreme OR, as you suggested, I really am stupid...

Do not be confused - I am NOT A GAMER pretending to simulate the NFL in Madden. I'm all Madden all the time. When I play other games, I'm thinking about playing Madden because there is no off-season. I'm simulating the NFL 365 days a year. While Ray Lewis and Peyton Manning lift weights, work on his footwork, and study film - I'm simulating the equivalents of those preparations on Madden so my mental faculties and physical skills will translate into victory where others only see defeat.

If you're playing time is spent on Mass Effect or Skyrim - I can't expect you to fully understand what I mean by SIMULATION. While that may seem condescending, it's not meant to be. It's just the difference between our expectations of the game and ourselves. I expect far more from myself than most people do...

Knowing what I know now, I've only become more entrenched in my position through thousands of games of experience that began with my inability to keep falling victim to the same tactics that beat me last year or the year before. Heck, I don't wait beyond the next snap. The way I see it:

No Guts, No Glory, No Nuts, Same Story

If you think I have an answer for everything in forums - wait til you see me in a game.

Later

[Illustrator76]

Re: Madden vs Real Football

Hold up - Wait. Guilty. Madden is my favorite game of all time. I buy electronics to support my Madden habit. So what?

At no point have you ever - in the history of reading posts - seen me hold up Madden as the standard of perfection. NEVER HAPPENED ANYWHERE, at ANYTIME, EVER. Fact is, if you care enough to look, I have stated for years that neither EA nor anyone else will ever create the perfect football game. EVER is a really long time.

That said, just because EA doesn't make a perfect product doesn't mean the people playing the imperfect product are playing the product perfectly.

I don't care what play you run or how you run it on offense - the tools are available to stop the play on defense and vice versa. When the tools improve, I'll be sure to incorporate the improved tools to simulate the NFL in my games...

I've played literally thousands of online games against. Less than 0.1% of my opponents have been prearranged since Madden '03.

There is no such thing as a Money Play - Only plays that are money against certain people.

That pick play you mention... I'd defend it by staggering the depth of my coverage men. By changing their position, the location where the 'pick' normally occurs moves to another location. Any opponent relying on the pick to break Clark open at the normal spot will be disappointed and probably throw into the teeth of the coverage instead of the open spot they anticipated. Also, 4 Verts is one of my favorite plays to defend because so many people THINK it's money. I'll let an opponent throw it 3 times - after that it's CLAMPS.

I fully expected this response from you. Of course you were going to say: "Everything can be stopped and defended", but the problem is that your potential "ways" for stopping things aren't always very practical in a "football sense". I am not (before every play) about to start moving my cornerbacks around in the anticipation that someone is going to run a money play. That's just going to leave me open for other stuff when my opponent isn't running "glitch pick" or other BS plays. Solutions are great when you know something is coming, but if the other guy starts mixing the cheese up, then you are doing a bunch of useless garbage every play for nothing.

Flat out, I should not have to concoct a specialty defense to combat AI glitches and warping, both of which are VERY prevalent in Madden. If it were a natural occurance in the game, then fine, but combating poor programming in this manner is pointless. Madden doesn't mean that much to me that I am going to make a bunch of manual adjustments every play, just to combat a clown that found some money plays he can exploit all of the time. I should be able to call a Defense based on certain factors (maybe making one "strategy pad" adjustment), and then let things play out. I should not have to create "specialty plays" just to stop A FEW CHEAP THINGS the Offense/Defense is abusing. That line of thinking is utterly ridiculous, foolhardy, nonsensical, totally unrealistic and not at all indicative of "real football", which is what I am trying to play (as opposed to "Madden ball").

Besides, I'm gonna lean a lot more towards believing not only what I see, but also known tournament players that make a living finding money routes and other BS like this over a guy who defends every cross word said about Madden. Sorry.

If you think I have an answer for everything in forums - wait til you see me in a game.

Not sure if this was directed at me as well, but I personally don't care to ever see you in a game of Madden. You may beat me, you may not. Either way, so what? Life goes on and a loss at Madden makes absolutely no impact on my overall quality of life whatsoever. It's simply a game and I treat it as that. I'm too old to take winning or losing at a video game as anything other than it is; A meaningless loss in a virtual setting where I have limited control of the outcome (and if "Madden" is happening at the time, very little control of the outcome).

Later

[TheNumber35]

Re: Madden vs Real Football

The fact that you mention Skyrim and Mass Effect means you don't understand who you're dealing with. Maybe I take SIM to the ultimate extreme OR, as you suggested, I really am stupid...

Do not be confused - I am NOT A GAMER pretending to simulate the NFL in Madden. I'm all Madden all the time. When I play other games, I'm thinking about playing Madden because there is no off-season. I'm simulating the NFL 365 days a year. While Ray Lewis and Peyton Manning lift weights, work on his footwork, and study film - I'm simulating the equivalents of those preparations on Madden so my mental faculties and physical skills will translate into victory where others only see defeat.

If you're playing time is spent on Mass Effect or Skyrim - I can't expect you to fully understand what I mean by SIMULATION. While that may seem condescending, it's not meant to be. It's just the difference between our expectations of the game and ourselves. I expect far more from myself than most people do...

Knowing what I know now, I've only become more entrenched in my position through thousands of games of experience that began with my inability to keep falling victim to the same tactics that beat me last year or the year before. Heck, I don't wait beyond the next snap. The way I see it:

No Guts, No Glory, No Nuts, Same Story

If you think I have an answer for everything in forums - wait til you see me in a game.

Later

You have a completely different view on this than everyone else, so I think you don't understand where we are all coming from. Everyone here wants a video game that accurately simulates the on-the-field play of the NFL, in no way, shape, or form do we want the NFL in a box. We don't want to have to learn Madden tricks or spend hours and hours in practice to find the Madden solution to a problem.

Me bringing up Skyrim and Mass Effect shouldn't make my point less valid just because I don't obsess about Madden the same way you do. If anything, it should make it more valid since I'm more experienced in the gaming world than you are in focusing on Madden more than anything else (which I have the utmost respect for you in that regard)...the fact that those games can have so much in them while Madden is so bare and not an accurate portrayal of the game on the field, is a testament to why Madden continues to disappoint. It isn't living up to the potential games now-a-days have, and that is what disappoints.

Just because I'm not as serious into Madden as you DOESN'T mean that I'm any less qualified in my knowledge and it absolutely doesn't disqualify me from wanting an NFL game that doesn't require an equal amount of work to the NFL. There's a difference between an accurate simulation and what you're wanting TNT, you want the entirety of the NFL in a $60 box, the rest of us just want a game that plays like real life. There's a huge discrepancy between the two view points and while your view is well-respected around here, it isn't at all what we're talking about and wanting.

You can continue to put in your work and such in the game we're proposing, and honestly...it will be a lot better of an experience for you. You'll have even more of an advantage over people in the game all of us around here are proposing because of your excellent work ethic and knowledge.

[TNT713]

Re: Madden vs Real Football

I fully expected this response from you. Of course you were going to say: "Everything can be stopped and defended", but the problem is that your potential "ways" for stopping things aren't always very practical in a "football sense". I am not (before every play) about to start moving my cornerbacks around in the anticipation that someone is going to run a money play. That's just going to leave me open for other stuff when my opponent isn't running "glitch pick" or other BS plays. Solutions are great when you know something is coming, but if the other guy starts mixing the cheese up, then you are doing a bunch of useless garbage every play for nothing.

Flat out, I should not have to concoct a specialty defense to combat AI glitches and warping, both of which are VERY prevalent in Madden. If it were a natural occurance in the game, then fine, but combating poor programming in this manner is pointless. Madden doesn't mean that much to me that I am going to make a bunch of manual adjustments every play, just to combat a clown that found some money plays he can exploit all of the time. I should be able to call a Defense based on certain factors (maybe making one "strategy pad" adjustment), and then let things play out. I should not have to create "specialty plays" just to stop A FEW CHEAP THINGS the Offense/Defense is abusing. That line of thinking is utterly ridiculous, foolhardy, nonsensical, totally unrealistic and not at all indicative of "real football", which is what I am trying to play (as opposed to "Madden ball").

Besides, I'm gonna lean a lot more towards believing not only what I see, but also known tournament players that make a living finding money routes and other BS like this over a guy who defends every cross word said about Madden. Sorry.

Not sure if this was directed at me as well, but I personally don't care to ever see you in a game of Madden. You may beat me, you may not. Either way, so what? Life goes on and a loss at Madden makes absolutely no impact on my overall quality of life whatsoever. It's simply a game and I treat it as that. I'm too old to take winning or losing at a video game as anything other than it is; A meaningless loss in a virtual setting where I have limited control of the outcome (and if "Madden" is happening at the time, very little control of the outcome).

Later

You expected me to have an answer that was outside of what you're willing to do. I expected your response to be some reason you wouldn't be willing to do it. For almost a decade people complaining about Madden have told me what they weren't willing to do. No surprises on either side...

In the past, I'd have used several adjectives to describe players like yourself. None would have been flattering. Now, I just say - you're not as serious as others about THIS GAME.

Regarding what we accept as truth - I've sponsored, hosted, and officiated 13 tournaments in 2 states while awarding more than $7000 in prizes. Furthermore I've competed more than 6000 games of experience playing head-to-head against random players online for almost a decade... Using what I've seen with my own eyes, paid for with my own money, and researched from the books in my own libraries; forgive me for not accepting your point of view as gospel because of something you heard from someone else.

You have a completely different view on this than everyone else, so I think you don't understand where we are all coming from. Everyone here wants a video game that accurately simulates the on-the-field play of the NFL, in no way, shape, or form do we want the NFL in a box. We don't want to have to learn Madden tricks or spend hours and hours in practice to find the Madden solution to a problem.

Me bringing up Skyrim and Mass Effect shouldn't make my point less valid just because I don't obsess about Madden the same way you do. If anything, it should make it more valid since I'm more experienced in the gaming world than you are in focusing on Madden more than anything else (which I have the utmost respect for you in that regard)...the fact that those games can have so much in them while Madden is so bare and not an accurate portrayal of the game on the field, is a testament to why Madden continues to disappoint. It isn't living up to the potential games now-a-days have, and that is what disappoints.

Just because I'm not as serious into Madden as you DOESN'T mean that I'm any less qualified in my knowledge and it absolutely doesn't disqualify me from wanting an NFL game that doesn't require an equal amount of work to the NFL. There's a difference between an accurate simulation and what you're wanting TNT, you want the entirety of the NFL in a $60 box, the rest of us just want a game that plays like real life. There's a huge discrepancy between the two view points and while your view is well-respected around here, it isn't at all what we're talking about and wanting.

You can continue to put in your work and such in the game we're proposing, and honestly...it will be a lot better of an experience for you. You'll have even more of an advantage over people in the game all of us around here are proposing because of your excellent work ethic and knowledge.

Numbers,

I think you are mistaken... I'm not that different than many of the people that play Madden. I spend exactly zero minutes a year learning "Madden tricks" like so many seem to want to attribute me.

This very argument - I've had it THOUSANDS OF TIMES in dozens of places for almost a decade (Jan 2013 will be 10 years). Let me be perfectly honest - I have nothing against those guys until they start telling other people what they can't do strategically. Partially because I know full well what you can do because I've invested years to mater using the tools EA provides, partially because I know that most players engaging in this argument with me have not.

It's 100% fine to have your limits, to stay in an environment that caters to your desired style of play, and to discuss items that are relevant to how you play. What nauseates me is when people who have lived a very sheltered Madden existence start telling other people that they must also shelter themselves to maintain Madden's simulation value.

Given a legitimate football tactic to combat a legitimate football tactic and some players still would opt not to use it, it's derivatives, or linkable concepts that simulate the tactics of the NFL. Some people believe that playing Madden with absolutely no adjusting to their opponent's strategy still amounts to NFL simulation. When they see a tactic that requires just one adjustment - they still won't make the adjustment...

Simply put - plays aren't being made because people won't simulate a concept that would make the play. This refusal goes beyond any one tactic, it extends to them all.

The previous instance with Illustrator not wanting to stagger his coverage is a perfect example. When he detailed the tactic, I knew more than he told us. I could imagine about 5 formation concepts (Bunch, Trips, Wing, motion, etc) that would setup the pick play he discussed... Just ONE ADJUSTMENT would work to beat them all. Moving a CB a mere two yards off his default spot would be enough to stagger the coverage - but that ONE adjustment is too much...

But just because he isn't willing to change his defender's positioning pre-snap doesn't make it a "Madden Ball" tactic. Heck, teams in the NFL stagger their coverage against the same pick concepts all the time. Where do you think I got the idea?

But when I see a guy who hasn't, doesn't, or won't make such a simplistic adjustment to simulate the NFL - I automatically assume they aren't willing to simulate ANYTHING that requires them to do what they haven't already thought of.

Needless to say, I don't put much stock in anything they say about Madden - because they obviously aren't trying to use the tools EA provides to simulate the NFL.

That's like showing up your first day on a job with a list of what you're not going to do.

Later

[Illustrator76]

Re: Madden vs Real Football

You expected me to have an answer that was outside of what you're willing to do. I expected your response to be some reason you wouldn't be willing to do it. For almost a decade people complaining about Madden have told me what they weren't willing to do. No surprises on either side...

In the past, I'd have used several adjectives to describe players like yourself. None would have been flattering. Now, I just say - you're not as serious as others about THIS GAME.

Regarding what we accept as truth - I've sponsored, hosted, and officiated 13 tournaments in 2 states while awarding more than $7000 in prizes. Furthermore I've competed more than 6000 games of experience playing head-to-head against random players online for almost a decade... Using what I've seen with my own eyes, paid for with my own money, and researched from the books in my own libraries; forgive me for not accepting your point of view as gospel because of something you heard from someone else.

I am willing to do what is within reason. Your responses rarely are. Give me something less insidious than manually moving my cornerbacks around every play hoping to catch/stop someone using money plays that exploit AI glitches (because of poor programming), and I will consider it (Wait, where are the EA tools for that? Why do I have to move them manually?), until then...

I also fully didn't expect you to accept what I stated as gospel, but you must also forgive me for not accepting the point of view of someone who basically attributes their entire existence to the video game we are "debating" about. At the end of the day I could care less, but this goes both ways, just as you feel my opinion isn't the only right one, I feel the exact same about you. So we are basically back at square one, right where I figured we would be...

I could absolutely, 100% care less about your unflattering adjectives in the past (or present for that matter) to describe "people like me". We are adults (at least I am), so there is no reason for you to even state some grade-school level stuff like that, and furthermore, you honestly act like people are supposed to care about/be intimidated by that stuff (like you "being back in character" or "taking the gloves off"). I don't, and once again I really can't state that emphatically enough.

You are right in that I will never in my life be as serious about Madden as you are (or any other game, besides, I play football, not Madden). I can't speak for the "others" you talk about, but as serious as you? HA, HA...NEVER!

Later

[PGaither84]

Re: Madden vs Real Football

TNT is serious about Madden first and Football second. He is serous about both, but in that order as far as I can tell.

I am serious about football. I don't care about being the best Madden player. I care about having a fun sim style experience.

I can relate to TNT in how he strives to get better at the game and encourages others to try and get better at the game. I just can't look past the obvious flaws and still enjoy the game like he can.

[Pared]

Re: Madden vs Real Football

You guys still going at this with him?

I would think you get to a point where you quit trying to use reason and logic and just let it go.

IMO, this is not reflective of what most in our community want to see from a football game. I hate using this quote - but "it is what it is."

[TheNumber35]

Re: Madden vs Real Football

You guys still going at this with him?

I would think you get to a point where you quit trying to use reason and logic and just let it go.

IMO, this is not reflective of what most in our community want to see from a football game. I hate using this quote - but "it is what it is."

Lol, Pared I know man! Its like a drug man, it keeps drawing me in because I just can't handle what I'm reading sometimes without responding. And I have a feeling its like that for a lot of people.

Your "it is what it is" statement perfectly describes Madden to me, and that is a testament to why we as football fans with varying levels are always disappointed year in and out.

But I agree with everything you said, and I think I'm bowing out of this debate for awhile now (although that could change with another asinine comment haha) because every time I make a legitimate point or argument, it gets danced around and spun back at me in an answer that has zero to do with what I brought up and mentioned in the first place.

[Illustrator76]

Re: Madden vs Real Football

You guys still going at this with him?

I would think you get to a point where you quit trying to use reason and logic and just let it go.

IMO, this is not reflective of what most in our community want to see from a football game. I hate using this quote - but "it is what it is."

You are 100% right. I just get sick and tired of how he talks down to and insults people. That crap needs to stop and I feel like there is no place for that kind of garbage around here. He's nobodies dad, mom, spouse, boss, etc... to be constantly talking down to, insulting and chastising people the way he does, especially when his arguments, solutions, opinions, etc... are rarely even based off of this thing we all live in called "reality".

Either way, you are right. Time to let it go I guess.

[Pared]

Re: Madden vs Real Football

Use the report feature if you feel that way.

I'm simply referencing the arguments you are discussing. Many here want the game more grounded in football basics and skills. Then, you have someone else focusing on making a game more competitive and somewhat basing it on football in general.

You want the excitement, the authenticity, the emotion that comes with NFL football. Hard hits, missed tackles, things that make you go wow. Not the lifeless game Madden has become. But these discussions always circle back to one side saying this and the other saying "get better, practice and you don't know what you can do in Madden."

It's apples and oranges and everyone just gets frustrated.

I have faith in a few guys on the dev. team now, not the community group. It's all just wait and see at this point.

Ahh, I guess I'm over it. Just surprised to see guys arguing the same things for the past what.. month? I don't think it's worth getting frustrated over but that's just me. EA has shaped Madden a certain way and it will be up to the developers to help change that, not tournament inspired fans.

[Big FN Deal]

Re: Madden vs Real Football

I feel you Pared but at the same time I think the motivations of posts have to be considered. Both sides want the "truth" out there about Madden, as they see it.

One side doesn't want gamers or developers led to believe Madden can't do things, the other side doesn't want gamers or developers led to believe Madden does things NFL "right" and vice versa.