Madden Serenity

[Big FN Deal]

When I was little kid, my grandmother had the first lines of the Serenity Prayer hanging up at her house and I would often read it when visiting.

God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.

With June 4th a week away and all the speculation about Madden 13, I am reminded of those words in relation to Madden. I think reasonable people could maturely handle whatever revelations concerning Madden, if it was clearly laid out and stated. For example, during the Madden 11 hype, it was stated up front that Franchise mode would only be tuned, not overhauled because they needed more time for it. People grumbled but reasonable gamers accepted it and appreciated that perceived candor.

I want to see that same direct approach taken in relation to the football fundamentals in Madden. Some explanation of what, when and why they plan on addressing or not, better representation of football fundamentals. Not these vague generalizations about "trying to create the best NFL simulation" but some specifics about what they believe should and should not be expected every year or ever, in Madden.

I mentioned that "no franchise upgrades" announcement from 2010 but the downside to that was, they also asked for gamers to submit ideas for the mode as if there was not already an intellectual treasure trove of unused community ideas already available. It's rhetoric like that, mixed it with what seems to be candor, which makes it hard for me to differentiate what to expect from EA/Tiburon concerning Madden.

I guess the point I am trying to make is, there should be a NFL alternative expectation set for Madden by EA/Tiburon and marketed, promoted or explained to gamers IF fundamentally representing the NFL is not in the plan. I know there are many people on OS and all over the internets that can't help but notice the negativity consistently surrounding even what seem to be good additions to the game. IMO, that's at least in part due to what often seems more like bait and switch of NFL representation than just everyday marketing hype. I believe if EA/Tiburon would provide more specific guidelines for what they think is a NFL possible in Madden, the pessimism and optimism within the Madden community would be much more balanced.

What do you think of the job EA/Tiburon does with setting gamer expectations for NFL representation in Madden and what effect do those expectations have on your POV towards the game?

[PGaither84]

Re: Madden Serenity

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[Franchise408]

Re: Madden Serenity

What do you think of the job EA/Tiburon does with setting gamer expectations for NFL representation in Madden and what effect do those expectations have on your POV towards the game?

I can only speak for this gamer, but, to answer:

1.) I think that EA / Tiburon do a poor job setting my expectations for NFL representation, due to a history spanning 20 years of unrealistic game mechanics and poor AI that relies on unrealistic superhuman cheating abilities instead of better football logic to represent challenge.

2.) Those low expectations thus give me a negative POV towards the game, because it does not portray the NFL game in video game format in what I consider to be acceptable fashion.

That said, it is and NFL game that at least on the surface attempts to portray itself as authentic, and as a fan of the NFL game, I continue to give Madden a chance in hopes that it will one day impress me. I try to be as honest as I can about each installment, and try to not allow my grudge against EA / Tiburon to cloud my judgment of each year's game - I truly, honestly, genuinely want Madden to be good.

[prime21time37]

Re: Madden Serenity

i think we as gamers have expectations that are very high. wheather its possible to obtain i dont know, but we expect an exact replication of pro football. the real life game changes so much and we have millions of views on how "pro football" should be played. its almost impossible to make the game an exact match of the real thing. we also get ourselves so pumped up that some of the blame has to be put on us for setting the bar so high. i think its easier for tiburon to make sliders availabe for us to adjust then to lose the people who wanna play "freestyle". as a company they need everyones money not just the hardcore nfl gamer. i do think we are moving in the right direction in finding the perfect game. unfortunately it may take slider adjustments but i think we will have it as good as it can be soon. hopefully this will be the year but if it aint then we can only be mad at ourselves for shelling out another 60 bucks. over half of us swore we were done but we all end up in the impressions thread posting on release day.

[StrawHat Patriot]

Re: Madden Serenity

I think EA/Tiburon does a bad job. My POV is hurt in the sense that I tend to look for and play older Madden games.

EA does Equivalent Exchange and/or Slight Additions/Tweaks each year.

For example, we have pass trajectories being marketed as an entirely new feature, even though it's just a reworked version of Precision Passing in Madden NFL 06-08.

[Jimi XIII]

Re: Madden Serenity

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"dynamic technology"

"its not just a bunch of people attaching and tacking a guy...."

"physics based feel"

"its not a gimmick"

"dynamic tackling"

"its not just about long animations..."

(-_-) really?

This post almost derailed the For those who say Madden is the same every year, consider this thread lol. But this is an example of a big reason there's that disconnect between the consumer & Madden team. I also remember Ian over selling the heck out of Pro Tak telling us here that BB (which was coming out soon at the time) using RTP will cause the players to just fall over at the point of contact. He would repeatedly ask us why we would want something like RTP and all. I understand he's gotta sale his product but you can't under-mind the intelligence of your consumers while doing so.

Even now, with all the good news & new/expanded dev team, I don't trust all the theatrics they are still using. Watching the new playbooks just makes me quiver a bit at times. Looking at devs poorly quote rehearsed lines with Schlereth and using those "cool" MTV hand gestures (never trust a 30 - 40 something man that uses MTV hands), it's just not gaining any trust from me. I don't see this from any other sports gaming team, at least to this level.

Just give me the info & game footage, no MTV hands, no filtered scripted lines, no hot words/phrases, no gimmicks. In the words of the late great O.D.B., "yeah baby I like it raaAAaaw".

[LBzrule]

Re: Madden Serenity

Big I think one thing when it comes to any company with a product: they are going to say what they need to say to push units.

[GiantBlue76]

Re: Madden Serenity

The only expectations that get set for me are provided from the products. The expectations are not set for me based on their ridiculous marketing schemes or their silly playbook videos. I know what to expect because I've experienced the same exact process for many years. In fact, I already knew what to expect from Tiburon once they became the only company making NFL games. Nothing has surprised me in the least over the last 7 years. The only thing that HAS surprised me is how far the community has lowered the standards with respect to what they consider an acceptable, high quality product.

Seeing the videos has not shown me anything. It has only solidified my opinion of the abilities of the majority of folks who write the code for this game. It has become quite obvious that it is VERY difficult for Tiburon to make a football game.

For example, it's great that they fixed the passing trajectories, but I don't think it's something that should be featured as a big time "feature". I think it would fit better if they could show a video that included procedural awareness (that actually exists), a real challenge system that works and is robust, a spectator mode, along with improved player movement (their own physics system that they use in their other games). The proper pocket, line interaction and and QB drop backs should all just be assumed to be proper, because those are basic elements that make it "football".

When you watch their videos, you get the feeling like they are trying to convince you that you should be MORE than happy that they added these one or two items, yet couldn't address the glaring issues that have continued to plague the series. "Hey, we know we couldn't get to everything, but we worked really hard. We had several community days. We listened to you. We even have Tebowing and green dots on the helmets!".

I'd like to see less fanfare, and more substance. The changes are usually good and work towards positive progress, but they are often buggy, incomplete, unpolished and they are small. It's time for Madden to make the jump to hang with the big boys. NBA 2k and MLB the Show have turned Madden into the laughing stock of sports games. FIFA and NHL are also turning into elite titles.

Tiburon needs to set our expectations with a polished, complete and innovative football game - just like the other sports genres have.

[roadman]

Re: Madden Serenity

Big I think one thing when it comes to any company with a product: they are going to say what they need to say to push units.

I agree with LBz, the way EA markets is to market similar to commercials.

Look at Mickey D's, forever and for as long as I lived, 2 all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, pickles, cheese on a sesame seed bun. Now, it's all about coffee and tropical juices. They are trying to cast their net to a wide market.

Same with car companies. I just read an article by the CEO of Hyuandai. The gist of the article was how did you improve the cars so dramatically. He said, it's all about what the consumer wants. He said we used to just have one cup holder in the middle section and he told the engineers he wanted two. They looked at him and said, no way. He said, just figure out a way because people like storage space. Casting a net over a wide market.

I think it's too early to judge this new team on random marketing spiels from the marketing department. If the game delivers as advertised,(we all know what's in the game and what's not until a week from now), nobody will care what the marketing is and how they deliver the message.

[kjcheezhead]

Re: Madden Serenity

I agree with LBz, the way EA markets is to market similar to commercials.

Look at Mickey D's, forever and for as long as I lived, 2 all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, pickles, cheese on a sesame seed bun. Now, it's all about coffee and tropical juices. They are trying to cast their net to a wide market.

Same with car companies. I just read an article by the CEO of Hyuandai. The gist of the article was how did you improve the cars so dramatically. He said, it's all about what the consumer wants. He said we used to just have one cup holder in the middle section and he told the engineers he wanted two. They looked at him and said, no way. He said, just figure out a way because people like storage space. Casting a net over a wide market.

I think it's too early to judge this new team on random marketing spiels from the marketing department. If the game delivers as advertised,(we all know what's in the game and what's not until a week from now), nobody will care what the marketing is and how they deliver the message.

I see them more like politicians than salesman in their marketing. They sell themselves to everyone. Just look at the way the new passing system has been described in these playbooks. "Hey simheads, the passing game will be more realistic now that icons have to be lit up." "Hey tourney guys, don't worry you can still click on wrs and user catch just like you always have." "Hey casuals/newbies, we are striving to make user catching easier with our new system so you won't feel intimidated."

As far as the OP's question

What do you think of the job EA/Tiburon does with setting gamer expectations for
NFL representation in Madden and what effect do those expectations have on your
POV towards the game?

They do an amazing job. Madden 06-09 were complete garbage. Madden 10 was mediocre at best. Madden 11 went backwards in every way imaginable for me and Madden 12 was what Madden 11 should have been. After all this, Tiburon has sold over 5 million copies of each version and EA haters like me are still dropping in to see what Madden 13 has in store for us. How many other developers could manage to pull that off?

[StrawHat Patriot]

Re: Madden Serenity

I see them more like politicians than salesman in their marketing. They sell themselves to everyone. Just look at the way the new passing system has been described in these playbooks. "Hey simheads, the passing game will be more realistic now that icons have to be lit up." "Hey tourney guys, don't worry you can still click on wrs and user catch just like you always have." "Hey casuals/newbies, we are striving to make user catching easier with our new system so you won't feel intimidated."

As far as the OP's question

They do an amazing job. Madden 06-09 were complete garbage. Madden 10 was mediocre at best. Madden 11 went backwards in every way imaginable for me and Madden 12 was what Madden 11 should have been. After all this, Tiburon has sold over 5 million copies of each version and EA haters like me are still dropping in to see what Madden 13 has in store for us. How many other developers could manage to pull that off?

Any developer that has the license.

[roadman]

Re: Madden Serenity

For example, it's great that they fixed the passing trajectories, but I don't think it's something that should be featured as a big time "feature". I think it would fit better if they could show a video that included procedural awareness (that actually exists), a real challenge system that works and is robust, a spectator mode, along with improved player movement (their own physics system that they use in their other games). The proper pocket, line interaction and and QB drop backs should all just be assumed to be proper, because those are basic elements that make it "football".

When you watch their videos, you get the feeling like they are trying to convince you that you should be MORE than happy that they added these one or two items, yet couldn't address the glaring issues that have continued to plague the series. "Hey, we know we couldn't get to everything, but we worked really hard. We had several community days. We listened to you. We even have Tebowing and green dots on the helmets!".

I'd like to see less fanfare, and more substance. The changes are usually good and work towards positive progress, but they are often buggy, incomplete, unpolished and they are small. It's time for Madden to make the jump to hang with the big boys. NBA 2k and MLB the Show have turned Madden into the laughing stock of sports games. FIFA and NHL are also turning into elite titles.

Tiburon needs to set our expectations with a polished, complete and innovative football game - just like the other sports genres have.

I agree with most of this, but disagree with some. I think the first two paragraphs go under, "You just can't please, everyone."

If EA leaves out pass trajectories and leaping LB's and CB's, and overhauls the lines and includes something like tiered play calling, you would still have people complaining why pass trajectories and leaping LB's and CB's weren't touched and are still in the game. Heck, I want penalties that work, but I doubt that was tuned and tweaked.

Since I've been here, I've kept hearing about pass trajectories and the leaping defensive players. Heck, I've seen it in my own games.

Only a week away before we know everything. Time to kick back, relax and wait till June 4th.

[StarrMatthieu]

Re: Madden Serenity

Big I think one thing when it comes to any company with a product: they are going to say what they need to say to push units.

thumbs UP

[Big FN Deal]

Re: Madden Serenity

Big I think one thing when it comes to any company with a product: they are going to say what they need to say to push units.

True but at what point does it becomes false or intentionally misleading? Most posts I read that have a negative or disappointed theme are based on what EA promoted Madden to be but didn't deliver on. I would like to know from EA is the bar for Madden video game fun with a NFL theme or NFL simulation fun, which comes through realism. If it's the former, then there is very little that separates Madden from NFL Blitz but at least be real about it and if it's the latter, then gamers need to keep criticizing EA about the lack of realism in Madden.

Like I stated in the OP, EA doesn't just promote the NFL theme in Madden, they promote a overall commitment to NFL authenticity but it's consistently lacking in the final product, imo. Then, they make a few comments about "how things take time", "limited resources" and "maxed out hardware", then websites, reviewers and some in the community carry the company water, repeating those same talking points. Just think about how many times a reviewer or interviewer has referenced how football realistic Madden has been this entire gen and how it must be difficult finding something else to improve or add every year. Really?

Also, when someone in the community talks about how "it's just a video game" so what do people expect, it's just about having fun. For me "fun", enjoying a video game, is all about the expectations of that video game, set by what it is alleged to represent. A video game doesn't have to be realistic to be fun but a simulation video game does and that's the point.

To bring a conclusion to this rant I suddenly find myself on, if EA doesn't intend for Madden to be a realistic representation of NFL football in a video game, then they should stop claiming it or everyone should stop feigning surprise and making excuses when gamers rightly repeatedly criticize EA for not delivering that in Madden.

[roadman]

Re: Madden Serenity

The best I can explain it Big, is that everyone is different. Yes, EA tries to cater being authentic to the NFL, but it also caters to the other 5 million buyers that purchase the game.

There are many different subsets of groups out there and trying to appease all the groups is a difficult task.

Your take on what represents the NFL might be different than someone else who doesn't visit internet message boards take on what true NFL sim is.

Sounds to me like your not believing in the vision that you once had for Cam Weber and I don't mean that in a bad way.