Run/Pass Commit In Madden NFL 13 - Make it More Realistic

[Big FN Deal]

Re: Run/Pass Commit IN Madden 13 Make it More Realistic

Big, this last part here is what I'm trying to remember. When did run/pass commit show up in the Madden series? Was it 05? 06? Also when did it show up in NCAA? I know why it showed up in NCAA. In that game you couldn't just call a good play and stop the run. You were kinda forced to use run commit to stop it. Even then people would still have 200 + rushing yard games in online head to head games. Defense too passive.

From what I can tell be searching the internets, it appears it was first in Madden 2005 with the defensive pre-play controls. On a side not, I wish I hadn't searched because a I honestly couldn't believe some of the stuff I read about old Maddens that they are repeating even this year. lol

Anyway, I think it was added to deter gamers from blatantly running the same plays over again. I guess adaptive AI has been a consistent issue with Madden even last gen. The crazy thing is, I don't think it's an issue in the sense that they can't get it to work properly to deter a lack of play calling diversity but rather a balancing issue for how "fun" the game is.

In an interview before M10 came out, Ian talks about intentionally weakening adaptive AI in HUM v HUM games I guess because they felt like that was limiting User control, letting the AI adjust for you. So run/pass commit is likely some compromise to put some form of adaptive AI in control of the User. Same thing with the smart feature from Madden 09's weapons, it would show the User the their opponents play if repeated too many times but the AI players didn't do anything to adjust, without User input.

I really wish you hadn't inadvertently started me down this rabbit hole. lol

[GiantBlue76]

Re: Run/Pass Commit IN Madden 13 Make it More Realistic

On a side not, I wish I hadn't searched because a I honestly couldn't believe some of the stuff I read about old Maddens that they are repeating even this year. lol

Now you know where the frustration comes from each and every year (and why I shout so much when we have our conversations, lol).

[LBzrule]

Re: Run/Pass Commit IN Madden 13 Make it More Realistic

From what I can tell be searching the internets, it appears it was first in Madden 2005 with the defensive pre-play controls. On a side not, I wish I hadn't searched because a I honestly couldn't believe some of the stuff I read about old Maddens that they are repeating even this year. lol

Anyway, I think it was added to deter gamers from blatantly running the same plays over again. I guess adaptive AI has been a consistent issue with Madden even last gen. The crazy thing is, I don't think it's an issue in the sense that they can't get it to work properly to deter a lack of play calling diversity but rather a balancing issue for how "fun" the game is.

In an interview before M10 came out, Ian talks about intentionally weakening adaptive AI in HUM v HUM games I guess because they felt like that was limiting User control, letting the AI adjust for you. So run/pass commit is likely some compromise to put some form of adaptive AI in control of the User. Same thing with the smart feature from Madden 09's weapons, it would show the User the their opponents play if repeated too many times but the AI players didn't do anything to adjust, without User input.

I really wish you hadn't inadvertently started me down this rabbit hole. lol

Hmmm if it was added in 2005 it was probably added for that stupid JUKE GLITCH in Madden 2004 (Juke Glitch might have been in Madden 2005 can't remember). See this is what I'm saying. When you look back at when this stuff was added it is always something that was happening on the competitive scene or in online lobbies that was exposing the game and that Juke Glitch back then was a mess.

[KBLover]

Re: Run/Pass Commit IN Madden 13 Make it More Realistic

Also where is the core problem in regards to representing run/pass commit, the AI, the playart, the animations, all three or something else entirely? I am hoping there can be something straightforward that we all can get behind that devs and programmers can clearly envision a way to get into Madden on these current consoles.

I probably won't be a lot of help because I just don't think it should exist at all.

It's...just the way guys should play because that's how the game is played. Not to mention the thing brought up with calling a pass D and still "committing to the run", which is like...what?

I guess if they put it with crash on the DL, that's one thing that's at least a bit realistic. That would at least shift the gaps the LBs are targeting (since the line is slanting that way the defensive gaps shift too and then it's up to the OL to block at the point of attack and seal things off).

Or, perhaps make it more an on-the-fly communication to represent how guys communicate on the field when they seem something - though, that, too, should be based on ratings AWR and PRC, the leadership role, or maybe both. So if you're caught in the draw, you can use it to call "Draw! Draw!" while the play is going on to maybe help response. Likewise with the play action. Then put one in for screens - basically the deceptive-type plays.

I don't know - I just can't come up with something that doesn't feel like it's negating mental ratings and player tendencies.

[kjcheezhead]

Re: Run/Pass Commit IN Madden 13 Make it More Realistic

Late to the thread. Seems like a lot of guys feel LBz suggestions are too complicated. Not sure why. Mostly it came down to 4 changes.

1. The run commit only activates against run plays. This way it operates more
like a run fit, which is more realistic than having complete sell outs against
the run and plays into their read and react defense theme. Allow Play
Recognition to govern whether guys bite on Play Action.

Seems easy enough to do. I think draw plays might go along with play action where play recognition/awareness decides if they commit?

2. When committing left or right, edge defenders; DE's and 3-4 OLB should step
up the field and set the edge.

So basically, if I commit to the defenses right the RDE or ROLB first step should be towards the line instead of to the right? Again, doesn't seem like a terribly complicated programming tweak.

3. All other defenders in the front seven, with the exception of the
backside DE or OLB, should simply attack the next gap over.

Again, similiar to suggetion 3 this doesn't sound too complicated of an adjustment

4. Backside DE/OLB should step up field first as if he is looking for
boot action or reverse, then trail the play.

The last defender away from the play doesn't commit like the rest, his assignment is to watch the backside.


Seems like simple fixes imo and they make sense logically when you think about how a defense would react to the run. I hope the devs can do these tweaks before the game drops.

[LBzrule]

Re: Run/Pass Commit IN Madden 13 Make it More Realistic

Video from NCAA 13 demo on the way about this stuff. Yikes

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/fvZS-LZ9Gmk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Here is the video. Interesting things. On the crashes to the right the DLinemen did not take the next gap over. They just stood where they lined up and got blocked there. He either beat the block or not. But when run committing in that same direction, it basically looked like the OL got screwed up and just forgot to block people. The run commit has the DL crashing so far in the direction that you commit. It's like BLIND Football. Forget everything else and go that way.

The other thing that was really interesting and did not make sense was that I purposely shifted the defense out of position and because I selected run commit the direction of the run, I was still able to blow up the run the majority of the time. This makes no sense. Goes completely against run defensive football fundamentals. One of the first things that must happen when defending the run is we must align our front properly or we are already beaten. As you can see toward the latter portion of the video, we are outmanned on a side and still stop the run just because I picked the run commit to that side. This is kinda sloppy. I should have ran quarters and see what I could have done out of that.

I think the crash right/left need to be like the run commit, but the movement much less extreme. It should simply be next gap over. This way the run commit can be saved for Goal line, 3rd and 4th and inches situations. The remainder of the game you should be able to set your run fits how you like and see guys man gaps and play fundamental defensive football.


Also Big and Taz, I think I know why the run commit was added to Madden NCAA back in 2005. QB Sneak and FB Dive out of Goal Line sets were unstoppable. So rather than getting the interior line to fire off the ball and getting the linebackers who were basically standing right there some intelligence, they came up with this feature. They added right and left run commit for tosses and the juke glitch probably. When they first had it it was just for the middle. It wasn't until later that they added left and right commit.

[BezO]

Re: Run/Pass Commit IN Madden 13 Make it More Realistic

Man, that vid is ugly!

The reasoning I got was that they could give me everything 2k does pre-snap but on the field. That was in 2009 and I haven't seen it yet I don't know if it is the OL cannot handle it or what.

From what I remember, the way defensive "assignments" and blocking assignments are tied together would require an overhaul to the blocking AI given all the new combinations the defense would have. That's probably why the o-line can't block run commits.

I just don't understand why these half baked features are implemented.

[GiantBlue76]

Re: Run/Pass Commit IN Madden 13 Make it More Realistic

Video from NCAA 13 demo on the way about this stuff. Yikes

<iframe src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/fvZS-LZ9Gmk" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="560"></iframe>

Here is the video. Interesting things. On the crashes to the right the DLinemen did not take the next gap over. They just stood where they lined up and got blocked there. He either beat the block or not. But when run committing in that same direction, it basically looked like the OL got screwed up and just forgot to block people. The run commit has the DL crashing so far in the direction that you commit. It's like BLIND Football. Forget everything else and go that way.

The other thing that was really interesting and did not make sense was that I purposely shifted the defense out of position and because I selected run commit the direction of the run, I was still able to blow up the run the majority of the time. This makes no sense. Goes completely against run defensive football fundamentals. One of the first things that must happen when defending the run is we must align our front properly or we are already beaten. As you can see toward the latter portion of the video, we are outmanned on a side and still stop the run just because I picked the run commit to that side. This is kinda sloppy. I should have ran quarters and see what I could have done out of that.

I think the crash right/left need to be like the run commit, but the movement much less extreme. It should simply be next gap over. This way the run commit can be saved for Goal line, 3rd and 4th and inches situations. The remainder of the game you should be able to set your run fits how you like and see guys man gaps and play fundamental defensive football.


Also Big and Taz, I think I know why the run commit was added to Madden NCAA back in 2005. QB Sneak and FB Dive out of Goal Line sets were unstoppable. So rather than getting the interior line to fire off the ball and getting the linebackers who were basically standing right there some intelligence, they came up with this feature. They added right and left run commit for tosses and the juke glitch probably. When they first had it it was just for the middle. It wasn't until later that they added left and right commit.

Wow... That is really unfortunate. I can tell you without even talking to the guys on the dev team, that they will completely blow this off and not even consider this a problem. Maybe you can show them the APF video you made and cite examples as to how they can fix it? My big issue is that you shouldn't even have to do that. You are clearly illustrating exactly why it's so frustrating having one provider of NFL games. This is exactly why. One provider may have a better understanding of real football, while the other might not care so much. This to me shows a lack of understanding and one more thing that we will have to wait an extra year for when they supposedly overhaul the line play. Next year will be year of the line, and once again, only one area will get addressed. It takes entirely too long to get basic football in a football game.

Frustrated is not a big enough word...

[LBzrule]

Re: Run/Pass Commit IN Madden 13 Make it More Realistic

Yeah it really is unfortunate. I was thinking maybe there is something they can do, but there may not be anything they can do this year that would completely destroy the run blocking logic. After thinking about this some more, it seems like the OL and DL are in a script based on where the DL lines up and that keeps the storm contained. If you want to stop the run then you either have to wheel and deal and hope things work out, or you go with an all out gamble. It's so fundamentally unsound defensive football

[KBLover]

Re: Run/Pass Commit IN Madden 13 Make it More Realistic

<iframe src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/fvZS-LZ9Gmk" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="560"></iframe>

Here is the video. Interesting things. On the crashes to the right the DLinemen did not take the next gap over. They just stood where they lined up and got blocked there. He either beat the block or not. But when run committing in that same direction, it basically looked like the OL got screwed up and just forgot to block people. The run commit has the DL crashing so far in the direction that you commit. It's like BLIND Football. Forget everything else and go that way.

That was ridiculous.

That "commit" stuff is just insane. How could that ever be considered realistic football and something that should be sent out? Ratings are meaningless because they don't even block the guys. The defense doesn't need ratings because they just run free because the offense doesn't block. Nothing the HB can do except not fumble.

Ugh.

I don't know if you ran plays where you ran it opposite of the commit (commit right, run left), or how it works against the counter (commit right, counter-left) because after just seeing the commit to the correct playside, I just couldn't take it.

This will definitely be one thing I won't be using in M13 and I hope the CPU doesn't either because that I know already is going to drive me up a wall.

And crashing is still useless. Why didn't they just make crashing work and leave out the commit stuff? And if they won't make crashing work...just take it out (isn't that their supposed mantra now - if it doesn't work, it's out?)

I just wish this game would get away from the "counter mentality" like it's a fighting or RTS game (and even there it's not so much all-or-nothing, just advantage/disadvantage - skill can still overcome a character's/unit's weaknesses) and just get to football and make it more advantage/disadvantage to where personnel still matters. You could have the best OL in the league but with that kind of behavior...what's the point? You're just hoping to "beat the commit" instead of just executing solid run blocking and reading blocks/holes as the HB or defender and taking advantage of your personnel.

[GiantBlue76]

Re: Run/Pass Commit IN Madden 13 Make it More Realistic

That was ridiculous.

That "commit" stuff is just insane. How could that ever be considered realistic football and something that should be sent out? Ratings are meaningless because they don't even block the guys. The defense doesn't need ratings because they just run free because the offense doesn't block. Nothing the HB can do except not fumble.

Ugh.

I don't know if you ran plays where you ran it opposite of the commit (commit right, run left), or how it works against the counter (commit right, counter-left) because after just seeing the commit to the correct playside, I just couldn't take it.

This will definitely be on thing I won't be using in M13 and I hope the CPU doesn't either because that I know already is going to drive me up a wall.

And crashing is still useless. Why didn't they just make crashing work and leave out the commit stuff? And if they won't make crashing work...just take it out (isn't that their supposed mantra now - if it doesn't work, it's out?)

I just wish this game would get away from the "counter mentality" like it's a fighting or RTS game (and even there it's not so much all-or-nothing, just advantage/disadvantage - skill can still overcome a character's/unit's weaknesses) and just get to football and make it more advantage/disadvantage to where personnel still matters. You could have the best OL in the league but with that kind of behavior...what's the point? You're just hoping to "beat the commit" instead of just executing solid run blocking and reading blocks/holes as the HB or defender.

Agreed. This is what I don't get... They have access to everything NFL, they have community days, they have play tests, they are supposed to have the best resources. It's insanely frustrating because you know they didn't do it right because they don't know how.

[LBzrule]

Re: Run/Pass Commit IN Madden 13 Make it More Realistic

That was ridiculous.

That "commit" stuff is just insane. How could that ever be considered realistic football and something that should be sent out? Ratings are meaningless because they don't even block the guys. The defense doesn't need ratings because they just run free because the offense doesn't block. Nothing the HB can do except not fumble.

Ugh.

I don't know if you ran plays where you ran it opposite of the commit (commit right, run left), or how it works against the counter (commit right, counter-left) because after just seeing the commit to the correct playside, I just couldn't take it.

This will definitely be one thing I won't be using in M13 and I hope the CPU doesn't either because that I know already is going to drive me up a wall.

And crashing is still useless. Why didn't they just make crashing work and leave out the commit stuff? And if they won't make crashing work...just take it out (isn't that their supposed mantra now - if it doesn't work, it's out?)

I just wish this game would get away from the "counter mentality" like it's a fighting or RTS game (and even there it's not so much all-or-nothing, just advantage/disadvantage - skill can still overcome a character's/unit's weaknesses) and just get to football and make it more advantage/disadvantage to where personnel still matters. You could have the best OL in the league but with that kind of behavior...what's the point? You're just hoping to "beat the commit" instead of just executing solid run blocking and reading blocks/holes as the HB or defender and taking advantage of your personnel.

I ran it opposite the commit after I created that video and if the CB opposite the Commit gets blocked it's a home run if you have a speed back. The thing that really made me mad was I would purposely run to the left side. I would also shift the defensive line and linebackers that way and run commit the other way. On the snap the entire front seven just takes off to the right although I shifted them all left. I don't like the feature. Childish IMO. I mean I think it's pretty weak that just because I'm running left and you run commit left, now my OL is not going to block. And to add to what you've implied, I'm for getting rid of anything that makes the ratings obsolete, like this feature does. They do need things in the game where you can add logic to your run defense, but not this kinda stuff. Unfortunately it's all they are giving us.

With them having this in Madden this year, makes me wonder if there are some home run run plays or some annoying 3 to 5 yard QB sneak up the middle things that are money and this is your only recourse to stop it.

[Bootzilla]

Re: Run/Pass Commit IN Madden 13 Make it More Realistic

Video from NCAA 13 demo on the way about this stuff. Yikes

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/fvZS-LZ9Gmk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Here is the video. Interesting things. On the crashes to the right the DLinemen did not take the next gap over. They just stood where they lined up and got blocked there. He either beat the block or not. But when run committing in that same direction, it basically looked like the OL got screwed up and just forgot to block people. The run commit has the DL crashing so far in the direction that you commit. It's like BLIND Football. Forget everything else and go that way.

The other thing that was really interesting and did not make sense was that I purposely shifted the defense out of position and because I selected run commit the direction of the run, I was still able to blow up the run the majority of the time. This makes no sense. Goes completely against run defensive football fundamentals. One of the first things that must happen when defending the run is we must align our front properly or we are already beaten. As you can see toward the latter portion of the video, we are outmanned on a side and still stop the run just because I picked the run commit to that side. This is kinda sloppy. I should have ran quarters and see what I could have done out of that.

I think the crash right/left need to be like the run commit, but the movement much less extreme. It should simply be next gap over. This way the run commit can be saved for Goal line, 3rd and 4th and inches situations. The remainder of the game you should be able to set your run fits how you like and see guys man gaps and play fundamental defensive football.


Also Big and Taz, I think I know why the run commit was added to Madden NCAA back in 2005. QB Sneak and FB Dive out of Goal Line sets were unstoppable. So rather than getting the interior line to fire off the ball and getting the linebackers who were basically standing right there some intelligence, they came up with this feature. They added right and left run commit for tosses and the juke glitch probably. When they first had it it was just for the middle. It wasn't until later that they added left and right commit.

That was terrible. Like you've stated though, everything is a counter to something else. Just screwing around with the NCAA 13 demo I've noticed that it appears the cpu is actually run committing when you manually motion the TE and run to that side. The defense is on you instantly. If you run the exact same play but you don't motion over an extra blocker the defense plays it honest. I feel the run commits to the right or left were put in for that reason. People were motioning over TE's, WR's, etc to out flank the defense and gain a blocking advantage. The counter, in EA's mind is to allow all out run commits that will blow up said tactics.

As it stands the run commits left and right are obviously overpowered yet the line crashes are woefully underpowered. I don't know if the gameplan feature from NCAA is making its way over to Madden but, maybe that would be a way to get your d-line to play aggressively in certain situations. I don't know. Maybe that'll help your DB's stay back in coverage and not bite on double moves on 3rd and long if your DB's are put on conservative. The only problem with that is if yu get no huddled you can't change your gameplan without calling a time out.

With run commit as overpowered as it is there's no way an already anemic flexbone option game or jet sweeps can work. You can tell 99% of the time which direction the play is going and you can just run commit to that side as soon as you see the man go in motion. That's why I put in my own rules where I only run commit in goal line or short yardage situations to the middle. The line blocks run commit middle much better and vs the cpu they will hit you with outside runs to keep you honest.

[ch46647]

Re: Run/Pass Commit IN Madden 13 Make it More Realistic

I ran it opposite the commit after I created that video and if the CB opposite the Commit gets blocked it's a home run if you have a speed back. The thing that really made me mad was I would purposely run to the left side. I would also shift the defensive line and linebackers that way and run commit the other way. On the snap the entire front seven just takes off to the right although I shifted them all left. I don't like the feature. Childish IMO. I mean I think it's pretty weak that just because I'm running left and you run commit left, now my OL is not going to block. And to add to what you've implied, I'm for getting rid of anything that makes the ratings obsolete, like this feature does. They do need things in the game where you can add logic to your run defense, but not this kinda stuff. Unfortunately it's all they are giving us.

With them having this in Madden this year, makes me wonder if there are some home run run plays or some annoying 3 to 5 yard QB sneak up the middle things that are money and this is your only recourse to stop it.

Well atleast if you run "commit" to the wrong side you will pay the price for it. The only time I would ever use run commit is if it was short yardage and I thought it was a QB sneak. I would run commit to the middle. The left and right run commit are useless for the exact reason you just explained. However, I do like the pass commit button making my AI players more aware of the pass. That is realistic because when it is obvious passing downs my AI controlled players should me made aware of that. I just wish they would also make the D-ENDs get up field and create a pocket when I select that.

LBZ, I do agree that they absolutely need to overhal OL and DL play. Hopefully they do what they did with the passing game and add 400+ new animations and also add physics on top of that for next year.

[LBzrule]

Re: Run/Pass Commit IN Madden 13 Make it More Realistic

OK guys after second thought, they should be able to do something to this. When I look at what they did with slide protection for this year, which I think is a good addition (that works pretty well), they should be able to do something to this. I hope they do something with the line crashes.