Run/Pass Commit In Madden NFL 13 - Make it More Realistic

Collapse

Recommended Videos

Collapse
X
 
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • LBzrule
    Hall Of Fame
    • Jul 2002
    • 13085

    #61
    Re: Run/Pass Commit IN Madden 13 Make it More Realistic

    Originally posted by tazdevil20
    1000 likes on this post right here. Like I said earlier, the mentality has to be that you are developing an NFL simulation. Instead, we are told an NFL simulation is being developed, yet the final product is missing basic realistic concepts that have already been instituted in football games for years. Questions like the ones posed by this thread come about because we know it's possible when we've seen it in older games. 99% of what is complained about regarding Madden is because we had it at some point in the past.

    I'm not convinced the people building this machine really even know how to accomplish this. Designers, yes, programmers, no.

    I want to be fair to them so I give them credit and think they can accomplish a lot. I think the issue might be deeper than that. I think once the game became competitive in the early years of this century, that focus spilled over into the development of the game. If you look at why EA developed most of these "band aid" features it was primarily because somewhere in the competitive community, the game was exposed. 2004 Vick was unstoppable. 2005 roles around, contain blitzes and QB spies were added to the game. Even that was not enough to stop Vick and nothing dealt with the QB's dropping backwards and still being very accurate. So in 2006 they introduced Vision Cone. So we have to look back and see when run/pass commit was introduced to the game and what was it in the competitive and online communities that spurred its implementation. Unfortunately, I think sometimes for EA it is not about simulation realism except for numbers. I think their question is how can we balance things out in the competitive online communities? What measures do we take to make the statistics look realistic? We might have to introduce a feature that some will not find realistic to get that.

    Who knows I'm just thinking out loud.

    Comment

    • GiantBlue76
      Banned
      • Jun 2007
      • 3287

      #62
      Re: Run/Pass Commit IN Madden 13 Make it More Realistic

      Originally posted by LBzrule
      I want to be fair to them so I give them credit and think they can accomplish a lot. I think the issue might be deeper than that. I think once the game became competitive in the early years of this century, that focus spilled over into the development of the game. If you look at why EA developed most of these "band aid" features it was primarily because somewhere in the competitive community, the game was exposed. 2004 Vick was unstoppable. 2005 roles around, contain blitzes and QB spies were added to the game. Even that was not enough to stop Vick and nothing dealt with the QB's dropping backwards and still being very accurate. So in 2006 they introduced Vision Cone. So we have to look back and see when run/pass commit was introduced to the game and what was it in the competitive and online communities that spurred its implementation. Unfortunately, I think sometimes for EA it is not about simulation realism except for numbers. I think their question is how can we balance things out in the competitive online communities? What measures do we take to make the statistics look realistic? We might have to introduce a feature that some will not find realistic to get that.

      Who knows I'm just thinking out loud.
      There are certain aspects of madden that I think are very well done. Most of those aspects are NOT in the gameplay department. There are things that show up in this game that do not require having a high football IQ to realize are ridiculous. Player movement and interaction is the most foundational piece to any sports game. Contact sports require more in- depth player interaction. When I see your video, the developers making APF obviously had to study film to get that interaction as accurate as they did. With all of the resources and technology available to the Madden team, there is no excuse you can give me to rationalize why this basic stuff is still as big of an issue as it is. It's a combination of a lot of things which I won't publicly write here, but I know a lot of guys are thinking it already. When I look at how the players interact in that video and then I try to play Madden, I can't help but take it out of the drive and want to throw it directly in the trash.

      Sorry for being so candid, but that's just how I am and I'm just being honest.

      Comment

      • LBzrule
        Hall Of Fame
        • Jul 2002
        • 13085

        #63
        Re: Run/Pass Commit IN Madden 13 Make it More Realistic

        Originally posted by Tyrant8RDFL
        I would feel perfectly fine with it, and actually I would love it.

        If they implement it exactly how you presented it then it would be a perfect addition to the game, and would add another level of realism to it.

        I think what makes this a confusing matter , well for me anyways. Is the name Defense commit. They should called it defense awareness, and implement it exactly the way you presented it. This way it sounds correct , and makes better sense.

        Im sure they have seen this thread and hopefully have time to properly implement it, but Im feeling that they can't. I can't see why something like this in regards to proper movement of the lineman and LB's has not been corrected years ago. This is why I dont think it can be done, and since it cant be done. I feel the whole hit and miss is the best way to go , so this feature can be hardly used.

        Was there a reason why they couldn't implement the movement correctly? Was it present in any of the Madden since the current gen? Just curious. Thanks
        Great set of questions you raise here. And now it makes me a bit skeptical of who we are dealing with. I think you are right. What would be the reason why they couldn't implement this correctly years ago? Does it break something? Would they rather have all or nothing game play for balance in the online and competitive communities? I'm not sure what would be the thought process. Maybe if crash right and left worked like we are thinking then does that really screw up the pass blocking? Not sure what to think.

        Comment

        • GiantBlue76
          Banned
          • Jun 2007
          • 3287

          #64
          Re: Run/Pass Commit IN Madden 13 Make it More Realistic

          Originally posted by LBzrule
          Great set of questions you raise here. And now it makes me a bit skeptical of who we are dealing with. I think you are right. What would be the reason why they couldn't implement this correctly years ago? Does it break something? Would they rather have all or nothing game play for balance in the online and competitive communities? I'm not sure what would be the thought process. Maybe if crash right and left worked like we are thinking then does that really screw up the pass blocking? Not sure what to think.
          is there a reason why we can't select crashes with a more tiered play calling approach? why can't I select what I want my front 4 to do pre play? How come I can't select twists, stunts, crashes, pinches, fans, etc.? IMHO, I believe it's the team underestimating the user. Basically, it's an assumption that no one will understand those anyway, and it's fine to just leave it the way it is. We can then dumb it down by simply having "crash left or right" so that the guy can say, "I think he's running right, so I'm crashing my line that way".

          Comment

          • HeavyHitter55
            Pro
            • Jul 2009
            • 527

            #65
            Re: Run/Pass Commit IN Madden 13 Make it More Realistic

            Originally posted by ch46647
            What exactly does pass commit do? Does it only effect the D-line? I am actually happy they added this back in.

            I wish they would tune the pass commit to MAKE DE's aggressively rush up field. This would make the entire feature worth it IMO.
            Pass commit would make a draw play deadly. If you commit to the pass, all of your non-blitzing defenders go straight into their zones (or run with their assigned man) and not look for the run at all.

            But yes, I agree with LBz here. Committing to the run shouldn't look like everyone takes 2 steps to the side. Hit the gaps and flow.

            However, committing to the run shouldn't be exclusive to run plays only: that nullifies making the wrong prediction/read on a PA or passing play. It should be an all-or-nothing type call, making it a high risk-high reward type system. The point of the commit option is to force both the offense AND defense to play balanced, forcing the chess match games that all real football gamers love.
            Last edited by HeavyHitter55; 06-11-2012, 08:16 PM.
            "Believe in Now"

            RIP J.J.

            Comment

            • LBzrule
              Hall Of Fame
              • Jul 2002
              • 13085

              #66
              Re: Run/Pass Commit IN Madden 13 Make it More Realistic

              Another thing to think about here when thinking about run commit and having guys actually hit gaps rather than just crashing is that in the older games and in NCAA there was just too much mess with run commit. Guys would come out in Quarters and run commit and still have coverage too. By having guys man the next gap over, there would be so many holes in the middle and at the C gaps in the Quarters D that you would run all over it. With the way run commit is right now I can already see guys lining up in Quarters, Dollar 3-2-6 and Nickel 335 all game long and destroying the run out of every set, which is lame. They'll still have coverage too.

              Comment

              • HeavyHitter55
                Pro
                • Jul 2009
                • 527

                #67
                Re: Run/Pass Commit IN Madden 13 Make it More Realistic

                Originally posted by LBzrule
                Another thing to think about here when thinking about run commit and having guys actually hit gaps rather than just crashing is that in the older games and in NCAA there was just too much mess with run commit. Guys would come out in Quarters and run commit and still have coverage too. By having guys man the next gap over, there would be so many holes in the middle and at the C gaps in the Quarters D that you would run all over it. With the way run commit is right now I can already see guys lining up in Quarters, Dollar 3-2-6 and Nickel 335 all game long and destroying the run out of every set, which is lame. They'll still have coverage too.
                Touche
                "Believe in Now"

                RIP J.J.

                Comment

                • PSUEagle
                  Rookie
                  • May 2012
                  • 43

                  #68
                  Re: Run/Pass Commit IN Madden 13 Make it More Realistic

                  Originally posted by LBzrule
                  My hunch, based on discussions in the past is some things do not get added because of time; other things do not get added because while they will nod their head in agreement, they just do not want to take the game in that direction. Some things do not get added because adding it will break something else.
                  This.

                  I honestly feel like most of the gameplay guys probably just nod their heads and pretend like they understand when EA brings in Brad Childress, Mike Pettine, etc. They've known the issues for years yet refuse to truly, substantively fix them. Instead we get band-aids or "overhauls" that aren't actually overhauls, one of my favorites being their fix to pulling guards not "blocking anyone." Rather than rebuilding the whole things from the ground up, they made the linebackers act ******** against counters and false step everytime so that it worked. Never mind the fact that none of those plays were actually blocked correctly (I have yet to see down blocking in an EA game on Power/Counter plays).

                  The biggest thing this game needs is someone who has a true coaching background heading up playbooks along with game play. Blitzes need to be designed so that they're adaptable to different offensive formations, including situations where different guys will pressure based on certain sets. Receivers need to run their routes with greater speed and also adapt based on coverage (i.e. Stem Release against inside man coverage, wide depart against outside leverage, outside release against cloud on a fade route, etc.) and finally fronts need to mean something.

                  Football isn't a game where you just draw a play on a whiteboard and make no adjustments. Hell, that's one of my main frustrations when I see all of these blitzes and passing plays added every year that were clearly drawn verbatim without any actual understanding of how they would have changed if the coverage/offensive formation (whichever is applicable) had been altered. I'd much rather have a playbook with ten blitzes that were dynamic and automatically adjusted based on the factors I've mentioned before over the 100+ that are useless against most sets.

                  Comment

                  • Tyrant8RDFL
                    MVP
                    • Feb 2004
                    • 3563

                    #69
                    Re: Run/Pass Commit IN Madden 13 Make it More Realistic

                    Originally posted by LBzrule
                    Great set of questions you raise here. And now it makes me a bit skeptical of who we are dealing with. I think you are right. What would be the reason why they couldn't implement this correctly years ago? Does it break something? Would they rather have all or nothing game play for balance in the online and competitive communities? I'm not sure what would be the thought process. Maybe if crash right and left worked like we are thinking then does that really screw up the pass blocking? Not sure what to think.
                    Okay we may have some hope. I just played the NCAA demo and did the crashing left and right, and they do move in the direction of where they are crashing. They do not just stand straight up like in Madden. Hopefully this will be in Madden. Now I know this doesn't address the commit situation, but if it is implemented in Madden then at least that feature is working better, and furthermore it validates to me that we do not need the commit feature.

                    Originally posted by LBzrule
                    Another thing to think about here when thinking about run commit and having guys actually hit gaps rather than just crashing is that in the older games and in NCAA there was just too much mess with run commit. Guys would come out in Quarters and run commit and still have coverage too. By having guys man the next gap over, there would be so many holes in the middle and at the C gaps in the Quarters D that you would run all over it. With the way run commit is right now I can already see guys lining up in Quarters, Dollar 3-2-6 and Nickel 335 all game long and destroying the run out of every set, which is lame. They'll still have coverage too.
                    Another rock solid reason why this should not be in the game, or at least make it a option to have in the game. This way we can choose to turn it off.
                    Simply *Magic* Just click the link and Watch :)
                    http://www.operationsports.com/forum...post2043715147

                    Comment

                    • johnnyg713
                      MVP
                      • Dec 2007
                      • 1465

                      #70
                      Re: Run/Pass Commit IN Madden 13 Make it More Realistic

                      Madden is a football sim. This stuff should be in the game because that is how the game is played in real life. Do i know football this in depth? No, but playing a game that has this kind of stuff correct helps me understand the game that much more. NBA 2k has in depth, realistic basketball strategy and playing that game helps me understand the game of basketball and gives me a great gaming experience. I hope this stuff makes it in the game. Great thread LBz.

                      Comment

                      • Tyrant8RDFL
                        MVP
                        • Feb 2004
                        • 3563

                        #71
                        Re: Run/Pass Commit IN Madden 13 Make it More Realistic

                        Originally posted by PSUEagle
                        This.

                        I honestly feel like most of the gameplay guys probably just nod their heads and pretend like they understand when EA brings in Brad Childress, Mike Pettine, etc. They've known the issues for years yet refuse to truly, substantively fix them. Instead we get band-aids or "overhauls" that aren't actually overhauls, one of my favorites being their fix to pulling guards not "blocking anyone." Rather than rebuilding the whole things from the ground up, they made the linebackers act ******** against counters and false step everytime so that it worked. Never mind the fact that none of those plays were actually blocked correctly (I have yet to see down blocking in an EA game on Power/Counter plays).

                        The biggest thing this game needs is someone who has a true coaching background heading up playbooks along with game play. Blitzes need to be designed so that they're adaptable to different offensive formations, including situations where different guys will pressure based on certain sets. Receivers need to run their routes with greater speed and also adapt based on coverage (i.e. Stem Release against inside man coverage, wide depart against outside leverage, outside release against cloud on a fade route, etc.) and finally fronts need to mean something.

                        Football isn't a game where you just draw a play on a whiteboard and make no adjustments. Hell, that's one of my main frustrations when I see all of these blitzes and passing plays added every year that were clearly drawn verbatim without any actual understanding of how they would have changed if the coverage/offensive formation (whichever is applicable) had been altered. I'd much rather have a playbook with ten blitzes that were dynamic and automatically adjusted based on the factors I've mentioned before over the 100+ that are useless against most sets.
                        Really love what you stated here. The game of football is deep that I' am not 100% confident with EA's understanding of each level of the game. I hate seeing certain things implemented with no counter to it, or without the proper execution.
                        Simply *Magic* Just click the link and Watch :)
                        http://www.operationsports.com/forum...post2043715147

                        Comment

                        • LBzrule
                          Hall Of Fame
                          • Jul 2002
                          • 13085

                          #72
                          Re: Run/Pass Commit IN Madden 13 Make it More Realistic

                          Originally posted by tazdevil20
                          is there a reason why we can't select crashes with a more tiered play calling approach? why can't I select what I want my front 4 to do pre play? How come I can't select twists, stunts, crashes, pinches, fans, etc.? IMHO, I believe it's the team underestimating the user. Basically, it's an assumption that no one will understand those anyway, and it's fine to just leave it the way it is. We can then dumb it down by simply having "crash left or right" so that the guy can say, "I think he's running right, so I'm crashing my line that way".
                          The reasoning I got was that they could give me everything 2k does pre-snap but on the field. That was in 2009 and I haven't seen it yet I don't know if it is the OL cannot handle it or what.

                          Comment

                          • Big FN Deal
                            Banned
                            • Aug 2011
                            • 5993

                            #73
                            Re: Run/Pass Commit IN Madden 13 Make it More Realistic

                            Here is my question. Considering how FUBAR we have been told the coding in next-gen Madden is and how it is supposed to add so much more difficulty to implementing things into the game, how feasible is it for EA/Tiburon to address these things like run/pass commit before the next consoles?

                            That "other game" was likely built on core football fundamentals from the start so it was likely easier to build on that. I don't think anybody would argue that about next-gen Madden so maybe band-aids here and there are the best the devs can do right now. I think even Infinity was likely mainly implemented this generation in hopes of ironing it out for the next consoles.

                            Also where is the core problem in regards to representing run/pass commit, the AI, the playart, the animations, all three or something else entirely? I am hoping there can be something straightforward that we all can get behind that devs and programmers can clearly envision a way to get into Madden on these current consoles.

                            Comment

                            • PSUEagle
                              Rookie
                              • May 2012
                              • 43

                              #74
                              Re: Run/Pass Commit IN Madden 13 Make it More Realistic

                              Originally posted by Big FN Deal
                              Here is my question. Considering how FUBAR we have been told the coding in next-gen Madden is and how it is supposed to add so much more difficulty to implementing things into the game, how feasible is it for EA/Tiburon to address these things like run/pass commit before the next consoles?

                              That "other game" was likely built on core football fundamentals from the start so it was likely easier to build on that. I don't think anybody would argue that about next-gen Madden so maybe band-aids here and there are the best the devs can do right now. I think even Infinity was likely mainly implemented this generation in hopes of ironing it out for the next consoles.

                              Also where is the core problem in regards to representing run/pass commit, the AI, the playart, the animations, all three or something else entirely? I am hoping there can be something straightforward that we all can get behind that devs and programmers can clearly envision a way to get into Madden on these current consoles.
                              Full disclosure: I know next to nothing about programming.

                              With that said, I think it's very possible if they have the right guys in place and a commitment to building it correctly from the ground up. They should start working on the new game as soon as they receive internal copies of the PS4/XBOX 720.

                              They may need to release a place-holder type game for a couple of years on the level of Madden 06 while they build, but again, I think it's very possible. The problem is you have a combination of game play guys who understand some of the game but not nearly enough (and IMO don't have the passion/desire/drive to truly learn what they don't know) to go along with a marketing apparatus that believes that making the game anymore "complex" will alienate the all mighty "casual" crowd. The game play guys can't/won't fix the issue, while the marketing guys essentially support the status quo due to no competition.

                              Bad combination.

                              Comment

                              • LBzrule
                                Hall Of Fame
                                • Jul 2002
                                • 13085

                                #75
                                Re: Run/Pass Commit IN Madden 13 Make it More Realistic

                                Originally posted by Big FN Deal
                                Here is my question. Considering how FUBAR we have been told the coding in next-gen Madden is and how it is supposed to add so much more difficulty to implementing things into the game, how feasible is it for EA/Tiburon to address these things like run/pass commit before the next consoles?

                                That "other game" was likely built on core football fundamentals from the start so it was likely easier to build on that. I don't think anybody would argue that about next-gen Madden so maybe band-aids here and there are the best the devs can do right now. I think even Infinity was likely mainly implemented this generation in hopes of ironing it out for the next consoles.

                                Also where is the core problem in regards to representing run/pass commit, the AI, the playart, the animations, all three or something else entirely? I am hoping there can be something straightforward that we all can get behind that devs and programmers can clearly envision a way to get into Madden on these current consoles.
                                Big, this last part here is what I'm trying to remember. When did run/pass commit show up in the Madden series? Was it 05? 06? Also when did it show up in NCAA? I know why it showed up in NCAA. In that game you couldn't just call a good play and stop the run. You were kinda forced to use run commit to stop it. Even then people would still have 200 + rushing yard games in online head to head games. Defense too passive.

                                Comment

                                Working...