Run/Pass Commit In Madden NFL 13 - Make it More Realistic

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  • sgibs7
    EA Game Changer
    • Jun 2009
    • 541

    #91
    i personally think that it SHOULD be an all out gamble - if you are telling your team that the run is coming to the right or left and your wrong - you should pay big time
    EA SPORTS Game Changer

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    Comment

    • LBzrule
      Hall Of Fame
      • Jul 2002
      • 13085

      #92
      Re: Run/Pass Commit In Madden NFL 13 - Make it More Realistic

      Originally posted by sgibs7
      i personally think that it SHOULD be an all out gamble - if you are telling your team that the run is coming to the right or left and your wrong - you should pay big time
      Gibs, I was waiting for you to chime in. Frankly, with the language of commit I can see how one would reason that it should be this way. One of the reasons I responded to one of the posters by saying I think we are talking about two different things is because of the language "commit" does put one in that mindset. My picture of commit is different. I don't see how one can commit to anything without making a read. Taking it into another arena of life, a guy or girl who "commits" to someone without asking some questions will more than likely always end up disappointed. Going back to the game, committing to a toss right should not be the same thing as committing to a Wide Zone right.

      Just thinking it through I think what they need to do is take the crash right and left and make it like the original post.

      I think run commit the way it is, just should not be in the game at all. My reasoning is as follows:

      Just because a player tells the defense to sell out on a run to the left does not mean that the offensive line for the player on offense should now forget what their assignments are. Why is my offense punished completely just because the other player has his defense crashing that way?

      Second, even if a person tells their defense to sell out on a run why should that now mean the ratings are thrown out the window? We see threads every year about how Donny doesn't rate guys right. There is some merit to this. We see threads about how the ratings in this game do not matter? Well with gimmick features like run commit, those people are exactly right. Ratings get throw right out of the window and continues to feed the negative perception of the game. How are players distinguished with a feature like this? Everyone now has the same ability? read, react timing? block shedding tackling ability? All because someone pushed commit right/left/middle? And now the entire offensive line becomes the five stooges and a bumbling TE???

      Third, these type of features take us out of a football mindset and into dealing with game play abuses (Yeah I may be being a bit idealistic here in thinking game play faults can be minimized via the developer). I'm just thinking back to the first time run commit appeared in this series and I can be wrong here. If my memory is not failing me the first time it showed up was in 2005 and it only had one function and that was run commit middle to stop the QB sneak and FB dive out of goal line sets that people abused in 2004 online and on the competitive scene. Then in 2005 the juke glitch was introduced and it opened up a new can of worms. Madden 2006 gave us the vision cone in an attempt to deal with drop back passing. Madden 2007 was when I first remember run commit left/right. It might have been in 2006 I'm not for sure. The entire feature is generated around abuses and the feature itself led to abuse as guys would just come out in Quarters (this became a base defense for people and they stayed it in all game long) and run commit and blow up the run and still have great pass coverage.

      Fourth, something is being revealed underneath all of this. You can't keep ignoring an infectious cut by simply putting band aids on it. It's an infection and it needs immediate treatment. The infection in this case is Madden does not have run defensive principles built into the defense. They have acknowledged this. When discussing gap control in 2009, the answer I got was, there are no gaps, guys just move to an area. Something like this you would think deserves immediate attention. Well, we are going on four years...


      Let's think about it by entertaining a question. What would have been the effectiveness of Strong Close Toss and Off Tackle back in Madden 10 had the game had run defensive principles built into the defense? Hypothetically, more people would not have had that as a base offense with run principles in place. Instead, it was the offense of choice by a great deal of gamers and even now people still look for strong close as a formation in whatever book they are going to choose. Why? No run defensive principles in the game. Adding run commit is not going to help that. All it is going to do is keep the status quo of playing undisciplined run defense afloat. Second, something that people need on defense would already be there now and they could simply be building on that instead of bringing back gimmicks like run commit to deal with what are probably going to be problems in the game this year. Just seems like a backward process. We'll give you flash up front and work on the substance when we can????


      Run Defensive Principles need to be added over gimmick features like Run Commit. And I think they need to do what they can this year before they ship this game either by changing crash left/right and let the DL be detatched from the OL. A few things contribute to why run commit works the way it does.

      1) The DL is completely detached from the OL.
      2) The movement is extreme in whichever way you call it.
      3) The OL just says forget it

      All I'm saying is they need to keep #1 and tweak #2 to less extreme movement in the direction and Ditch #3 altogether. If they were to do that without the back side defender logic, I would accept that for this year and just play as the back side defender myself.

      It will allow OL and DL ratings to remain in tact, which in turn will begin to help eliminate the all or nothing game play. That is, even if you have the correct call, that does not mean you should automatically stop it. Football is too complex of a game for that.

      Comment

      • CRMosier_LM
        Banned
        • Jul 2009
        • 2061

        #93
        Agree x1000 with SGibs7

        Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk 2

        Comment

        • speedy9386
          Pro
          • Mar 2009
          • 828

          #94
          Re: Run/Pass Commit In Madden NFL 13 - Make it More Realistic

          I'm not overly adept with the strategies of football but do teams ever blindly commit to a side like that in real life?

          Comment

          • jfsolo
            Live Action, please?
            • May 2003
            • 12965

            #95
            Re: Run/Pass Commit In Madden NFL 13 - Make it More Realistic

            Originally posted by LBzrule
            Gibs, I was waiting for you to chime in. Frankly, with the language of commit I can see how one would reason that it should be this way. One of the reasons I responded to one of the posters by saying I think we are talking about two different things is because of the language "commit" does put one in that mindset. My picture of commit is different. I don't see how one can commit to anything without making a read. Taking it into another arena of life, a guy or girl who "commits" to someone without asking some questions will more than likely always end up disappointed. Going back to the game, committing to a toss right should not be the same thing as committing to a Wide Zone right.

            Just thinking it through I think what they need to do is take the crash right and left and make it like the original post.

            I think run commit the way it is, just should not be in the game at all. My reasoning is as follows:

            Just because a player tells the defense to sell out on a run to the left does not mean that the offensive line for the player on offense should now forget what their assignments are. Why is my offense punished completely just because the other player has his defense crashing that way?

            Second, even if a person tells their defense to sell out on a run why should that now mean the ratings are thrown out the window? We see threads every year about how Donny doesn't rate guys right. There is some merit to this. We see threads about how the ratings in this game do not matter? Well with gimmick features like run commit, those people are exactly right. Ratings get throw right out of the window and continues to feed the negative perception of the game. How are players distinguished with a feature like this? Everyone now has the same ability? read, react timing? block shedding tackling ability? All because someone pushed commit right/left/middle? And now the entire offensive line becomes the five stooges and a bumbling TE???

            Third, these type of features take us out of a football mindset and into dealing with game play abuses (Yeah I may be being a bit idealistic here in thinking game play faults can be minimized via the developer). I'm just thinking back to the first time run commit appeared in this series and I can be wrong here. If my memory is not failing me the first time it showed up was in 2005 and it only had one function and that was run commit middle to stop the QB sneak and FB dive out of goal line sets that people abused in 2004 online and on the competitive scene. Then in 2005 the juke glitch was introduced and it opened up a new can of worms. Madden 2006 gave us the vision cone in an attempt to deal with drop back passing. Madden 2007 was when I first remember run commit left/right. It might have been in 2006 I'm not for sure. The entire feature is generated around abuses and the feature itself led to abuse as guys would just come out in Quarters (this became a base defense for people and they stayed it in all game long) and run commit and blow up the run and still have great pass coverage.

            Fourth, something is being revealed underneath all of this. You can't keep ignoring an infectious cut by simply putting band aids on it. It's an infection and it needs immediate treatment. The infection in this case is Madden does not have run defensive principles built into the defense. They have acknowledged this. When discussing gap control in 2009, the answer I got was, there are no gaps, guys just move to an area. Something like this you would think deserves immediate attention. Well, we are going on four years...


            Let's think about it by entertaining a question. What would have been the effectiveness of Strong Close Toss and Off Tackle back in Madden 10 had the game had run defensive principles built into the defense? Hypothetically, more people would not have had that as a base offense with run principles in place. Instead, it was the offense of choice by a great deal of gamers and even now people still look for strong close as a formation in whatever book they are going to choose. Why? No run defensive principles in the game. Adding run commit is not going to help that. All it is going to do is keep the status quo of playing undisciplined run defense afloat. Second, something that people need on defense would already be there now and they could simply be building on that instead of bringing back gimmicks like run commit to deal with what are probably going to be problems in the game this year. Just seems like a backward process. We'll give you flash up front and work on the substance when we can????


            Run Defensive Principles need to be added over gimmick features like Run Commit. And I think they need to do what they can this year before they ship this game either by changing crash left/right and let the DL be detatched from the OL. A few things contribute to why run commit works the way it does.

            1) The DL is completely detached from the OL.
            2) The movement is extreme in whichever way you call it.
            3) The OL just says forget it

            All I'm saying is they need to keep #1 and tweak #2 to less extreme movement in the direction and Ditch #3 altogether. If they were to do that without the back side defender logic, I would accept that for this year and just play as the back side defender myself.

            It will allow OL and DL ratings to remain in tact, which in turn will begin to help eliminate the all or nothing game play. That is, even if you have the correct call, that does not mean you should automatically stop it. Football is too complex of a game for that.

            What you're saying is of course 1000% correct. At the very least remove the Tecmo style win or lose result from the call. In a big picture analysis, how many man-hours would it take to add gap control/real run defense principles. For something that will never be a marketable feature, too many hours may always make this a cost prohibitive fix.
            Jordan Mychal Lemos
            @crypticjordan

            Do this today: Instead of $%*#!@& on a game you're not going to play or movie you're not going to watch, say something good about a piece of media you're excited about.

            Do the same thing tomorrow. And the next. Now do it forever.

            Comment

            • LBzrule
              Hall Of Fame
              • Jul 2002
              • 13085

              #96
              Re: Run/Pass Commit In Madden NFL 13 - Make it More Realistic

              Originally posted by speedy9386
              I'm not overly adept with the strategies of football but do teams ever blindly commit to a side like that in real life?
              Hell No. That's the biggest reason why I wrote this. And I think getting underneath the underpinnings of why EA added it to the game reveals that it is a GIMMICK to deal with abuses in their game. Rather than going to the meat of the problem, they keep putting a band aid on it.

              Now I will say that the language and logic makes sense in practical scenarios. For instance, in life, if I am on a field running right then I cannot be going left. That type of logic makes sense. Ahh, but that is not how defensive football works one bit. Was just reading Dean Pees this morning and he had this to say about playing Ravens defense.

              “You’ve got to be tough. It’s a basic to playing defense.”
              “You’ve got know your assignments. You have to know what to do.”
              “You’ve got to give great effort.”
              Credit Baltimoreravens.com Kevin Byrne

              The key one for this discussion is the one in the middle. That one right there should tell anyone that there is no such thing is BLINDLY doing whatever. It's always about reading and reacting.

              What it boils down to and I am not going to necessarily disagree with gibs, bootz ect because their argument is on a different plane. They arguing from within the Madden program and how things work and how they can be balanced in that regard. I'm arguing about something outside the program that needs to be in it and is a better solution than the gimmick.
              Last edited by LBzrule; 06-13-2012, 02:51 PM.

              Comment

              • LBzrule
                Hall Of Fame
                • Jul 2002
                • 13085

                #97
                Re: Run/Pass Commit In Madden NFL 13 - Make it More Realistic

                Originally posted by jfsolo
                What you're saying is of course 1000% correct. At the very least remove the Tecmo style win or lose result from the call. In a big picture analysis, how many man-hours would it take to add gap control/real run defense principles. For something that will never be a marketable feature, too many hours may always make this a cost prohibitive fix.
                You are exactly right here. And that is my biggest fear. Why would something like this need to be marketed? I'm looking at this year and I'm saying , why are QB drop backs and pass trajectories, things that are basic to football just like run principles are, why are they back of the box features? These should be basic.

                Comment

                • GiantBlue76
                  Banned
                  • Jun 2007
                  • 3287

                  #98
                  Re: Run/Pass Commit In Madden NFL 13 - Make it More Realistic

                  Originally posted by jfsolo
                  What you're saying is of course 1000% correct. At the very least remove the Tecmo style win or lose result from the call. In a big picture analysis, how many man-hours would it take to add gap control/real run defense principles. For something that will never be a marketable feature, too many hours may always make this a cost prohibitive fix.
                  If this is the mindset that Tiburon is going to continue to have then they need to stop doing 2 things.

                  1. Stop promoting your game as the most authentic NFL simulation ever - especially since you don't even have all of the proper rules implemented in the game. This is a major fundamental area of the game.

                  2. Don't bitch when you constantly get flack about your product or get compared to 5 year old unlicensed games that have a much more realistic portrayal of the NFL than yours.

                  Knowing AJ, I can't imagine him NOT wanting this in the game. He was very critical of the run fits and gap assignments in Madden 10. If we are talking about making a simulation, fixing this should not be incredibly hard. It's 90% there in APF, Madden should go to 100%. What may seem to be insignificant on the outside, these types of things add up into creating an uber realistic game and a great experience for us football nuts to enjoy.

                  Comment

                  • speedy9386
                    Pro
                    • Mar 2009
                    • 828

                    #99
                    Re: Run/Pass Commit In Madden NFL 13 - Make it More Realistic

                    Originally posted by LBzrule
                    You are exactly right here. And that is my biggest fear. Why would something like this need to be marketed? I'm looking at this year and I'm saying , why are QB drop backs and pass trajectories, things that are basic to football just like run principles are, why are they back of the box features? These should be basic.
                    It's been like that for years basic things to football are these grand new features in madden.

                    Comment

                    • speedy9386
                      Pro
                      • Mar 2009
                      • 828

                      #100
                      Re: Run/Pass Commit In Madden NFL 13 - Make it More Realistic

                      Originally posted by LBzrule
                      Hell No. That's the biggest reason why I wrote this. And I think getting underneath the underpinnings of why EA added it to the game reveals that it is a GIMMICK to deal with abuses in their game. Rather than going to the meat of the problem, they keep putting a band aid on it.

                      Now I will say that the language and logic makes sense in practical scenarios. For instance, in life, if I am on a field running right then I cannot be going left. That type of logic makes sense. Ahh, but that is not how defensive football works one bit. Was just reading Dean Pees this morning and he had this to say about playing Ravens defense.



                      Credit Baltimoreravens.com Kevin Byrne

                      The key one for this discussion is the one in the middle. That one right there should tell anyone that there is no such thing is BLINDLY doing whatever. It's always about reading and reacting.

                      What it boils down to and I am not going to necessarily disagree with gibs, bootz ect because their argument is on a different plane. They arguing from within the Madden program and how things work and how they can be balanced in that regard. I'm arguing about something outside the program that needs to be in it and is a better solution than the gimmick.
                      Well if that's the case then I don't know why this is even a discussion. If it doesn't happen in real life then it shouldn't be in a simulation football game, point blank period.

                      Comment

                      • speedy9386
                        Pro
                        • Mar 2009
                        • 828

                        #101
                        Re: Run/Pass Commit In Madden NFL 13 - Make it More Realistic

                        Originally posted by tazdevil20
                        If this is the mindset that Tiburon is going to continue to have then they need to stop doing 2 things.

                        1. Stop promoting your game as the most authentic NFL simulation ever - especially since you don't even have all of the proper rules implemented in the game. This is a major fundamental area of the game.

                        2. Don't bitch when you constantly get flack about your product or get compared to 5 year old unlicensed games that have a much more realistic portrayal of the NFL than yours.

                        Knowing AJ, I can't imagine him NOT wanting this in the game. He was very critical of the run fits and gap assignments in Madden 10. If we are talking about making a simulation, fixing this should not be incredibly hard. It's 90% there in APF, Madden should go to 100%. What may seem to be insignificant on the outside, these types of things add up into creating an uber realistic game and a great experience for us football nuts to enjoy.
                        Surprisingly it seems like the people that buy the game make more excuses for them than the actual devs do.

                        Comment

                        • GiantBlue76
                          Banned
                          • Jun 2007
                          • 3287

                          #102
                          Re: Run/Pass Commit In Madden NFL 13 - Make it More Realistic

                          Originally posted by LBzrule
                          You are exactly right here. And that is my biggest fear. Why would something like this need to be marketed? I'm looking at this year and I'm saying , why are QB drop backs and pass trajectories, things that are basic to football just like run principles are, why are they back of the box features? These should be basic.
                          I posted almost an identical thing about a month back. Of course, when I post it, it gets received differently than when you post it .

                          I asked the EXACT same thing. Why are working pass trajectory and QB drop backs being marketed? That's like saying, "It's a football game and guess what?! We have TACKLING in it!". At some point, Tiburon forgets they are making a football game. The very things that make it football seem to be absent most of the time, then get added in slowly one at a time. Eventually we might actually have a whole game that is football again.

                          Comment

                          • CRMosier_LM
                            Banned
                            • Jul 2009
                            • 2061

                            #103
                            Originally posted by LBzrule
                            Hell No. That's the biggest reason why I wrote this. And I think getting underneath the underpinnings of why EA added it to the game reveals that it is a GIMMICK to deal with abuses in their game. Rather than going to the meat of the problem, they keep putting a band aid on it.

                            Now I will say that the language and logic makes sense in practical scenarios. For instance, in life, if I am on a field running right then I cannot be going left. That type of logic makes sense. Ahh, but that is not how defensive football works one bit. Was just reading Dean Pees this morning and he had this to say about playing Ravens defense.



                            Credit Baltimoreravens.com Kevin Byrne

                            The key one for this discussion is the one in the middle. That one right there should tell anyone that there is no such thing is BLINDLY doing whatever. It's always about reading and reacting.

                            What it boils down to and I am not going to necessarily disagree with gibs, bootz ect because their argument is on a different plane. They arguing from within the Madden program and how things work and how they can be balanced in that regard. I'm arguing about something outside the program that needs to be in it and is a better solution than the gimmick.
                            The run pass commit is the nfl equivalent to the MLB yelling "toss right" or "run left". If you are on the d line and your teammates yells that you are naturally going to follow that direction. It's up to the user to make the correct determination and obviously if he chooses wrong you could get smoked. Risk/reward at its finest.

                            Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk 2

                            Comment

                            • ch46647
                              MVP
                              • Aug 2006
                              • 3514

                              #104
                              Re: Run/Pass Commit In Madden NFL 13 - Make it More Realistic

                              Originally posted by CRMosier_LM
                              The run pass commit is the nfl equivalent to the MLB yelling "toss right" or "run left". If you are on the d line and your teammates yells that you are naturally going to follow that direction. It's up to the user to make the correct determination and obviously if he chooses wrong you could get smoked. Risk/reward at its finest.

                              Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk 2
                              What does the "pass commit" do CR?

                              Comment

                              • CRMosier_LM
                                Banned
                                • Jul 2009
                                • 2061

                                #105
                                Originally posted by Steve_OS
                                Welcome to our new Forum. Please pardon the dust as we will be changing a few things on the fly. Have fun and give us some feedback.
                                Tells your defense that its a pass play, so In other words they ignore any run responsibility

                                Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk 2

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