What Effect Has The Madden Community Had On Substantially Changing Next-Gen Madden?

[shaunlmason]

Re: What Affect Has The Madden Community Had On Substantially Changing Next-Gen Madde

I don't know that because some things we asked for eventually changed means we affected due to the timing. If you told someone every day for 3 years they needed to get a shorter haircut because it would look better and finally one day they did it, that doesn't mean you affected what they did. That seems more like they finally decided that's what they wanted to do and who knows what if any affect your insistent or suggesting had.

Same thing with next-gen Madden, FIFA, NHL and NBA Live all implemented physics first along with HC09 having scheme based ratings, so those things could very well just be a natural progression. Right now there are many on the Madden dev team from EA Canada so I wouldn't be surprised at all to see Madden continue to follow in the mold of the FIFA and NHL with upgraded AI and the next steps in physics for Madden 14.

Like I said in the OP, that stuff seems far more like an affect due to personnel changes than due to community influence, imo. Hopefully some CD/CE attendees and EA Game Changers will chime in to give their opinions on how they believe their direct interaction with EA/Tiburon has substantially affected Madden. Also, for full disclosure, anyone in that group that does chime in, my follow up question will be "Then why is it that you could affect ____ but not ____?"

I'll take your bait.

First, a couple of disclaimers:

• This is only my opinion.
• I did ZERO with Madden this year, it was all NCAA this cycle.

Those out of the way, I don't imagine that my involvement on the NCAA side of things is any different than the involvement of the EA SPORT Game Changers on the Madden side. I'll be the first to tell you that I know for a fact that my involvement has shaped the NCAA Football series.

Have I been able to see everything I hope to see happen occur in one cycle? No. Have I seen many changes happen this cycle? Yes. Many of the changes made at my suggestion you might never know unless you look for it. Examples include; recruiting screen layouts, tuning in Heisman recruiting in dynasty, many balancing adjustments in recruiting, tuning to how players react in situations, etc. If you could have seen the difference in "Total Control Passing" from the first day we saw it until now it would be obvious how our feedback is utilized.

I imagine it is frustrating for the "outsider" to imagine how the Game Changer program works, even though it is possibly the most transparent part of EA SPORTS. I think many don't feel we actually accomplish anything. I know how useful we are because we are constantly the conduit used by EA SPORTS when they want feedback.

To your larger question, what effect (sic) has the Madden community had on change? I think the answer is far more complicated than I can express. Without vocal communities there would have been no interaction from EA. Without that interaction the potential for utilization wouldn't have existed. Without recognizing that potential the Game Changers wouldn't have been born.

I'll say this: my opinion is that the Game Changers collectively are the most powerful influence on the games at Tiburon currently, outside of the team AT Tiburon. There was a time that individual online communities held more sway, but the Game Changers are supposed to reflect the desires of those communities now. That is a responsibility I think about constantly.

In anticipation of your follow up question: Then why is it that you could affect ____ but not ____?

The answer to that has many facets, some things don't change because:

• The development road map dictates the change will occur in the future.
• The underlying implementation makes the change either high risk or difficult.
• It is too late in the cycle to confirm the effects of the change suggested.
• The change is considered lower priority than other items currently being worked on.
• Cost vs Reward is low.
• The design is functioning as EA intends (i.e. my opinion is vetoed by theirs)
• Other Game Changers disagree with my wants.

Shaun

[Yeats]

Re: What Affect Has The Madden Community Had On Substantially Changing Next-Gen Madde

What Affect Has The Madden Community Had On Substantially Changing Next-Gen Madden?

Considering Madden on the Xbox 360 was, according to the trailer EA put out in 2006, supposed to look like this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02ajPL3Kna4&feature=related

...the answer to your question apparently is "No affect whatsoever."

[Big FN Deal]

Re: What Affect Has The Madden Community Had On Substantially Changing Next-Gen Madde

@Shaun Mason, I appreciate you chiming in and almost feel like I am asking for CE/CD attendees and EAGC to come on my talk show or something. lol. I am not baiting anybody, it's just that the thread is about the influence of community interaction and you guys are a huge part of that. I honestly don't have any agenda behind this thread or around Madden period, I just enjoy good discussion to mark time. If that somehow leads to better insight, so be it, if not, it is what it is.

So, using your example of EAGC helping tune the "throw a receiver open" mechanic, you think that without that interaction, the feature would have been released in the same "overdone" state? I doubt it considering that mechanic was touted in M04 or 05 from last-gen so I think it's likely that feature would have been tuned anyway prior to release. Maybe not to the exact level that EAGCs were able to convince them to place it but I don't think that tuning should be considered substantial.

I think this discussion in general could easily be a never ending "the chicken or the egg" type thing, so I will say this. Whenever this community expresses on the internets things they would like to see change about the game, those things are normally described in great detail and an abundance of specifics are hashed out through open discussion. So I think the community does a very good job of refining their suggestions and wishlists into a clear idea of what they want to see. However, somehow, when these ideas are claimed to be added to Madden, they very seldom if ever, reasonably line up with what the community actual asked for. Now I am sure the next response would normally be that ideas on paper and implemented into the game are two different things, I get that part. However, that doesn't account for deviating from community refined details that do carry over and replacing them with whatever EA/Tiburon decides is "fun".

For example, the challenge system, no huddle, audibles, penalties, broadcast presentation, recently Tebowing and HOF induction are all realistic to NFL football and simple to understand. However, each one has been or is represented in Madden with a completely unnecessary unrealistic EA/Tiburon slant, that no segment of the community has ever asked for and some that past games, even past Maddens, have represented far more accurately. No challenge options, sped up hurry up/no huddle offense hybrid, instant perfect audibles, uncalled existing penalties, Beyond Broadcast, Tebow Tebowing as a TD celebration and instant HOF induction, isn't representing the NFL or adding what the community has asked for. IMO, it's EA/Tiburon doing what they planned or wanted to do anyway but labeling or classifying it as something the community has been clamoring for and/or is NFL authentic, just slightly adjusted to be more "fun".

I can't find the segment of the Madden community that has asked or is asking EA/Tiburon to make "boring" real life NFL football more enjoyable, ie "fun" in Madden.

[KBLover]

Re: What Affect Has The Madden Community Had On Substantially Changing Next-Gen Madde

Those out of the way, I don't imagine that my involvement on the NCAA side of things is any different than the involvement of the EA SPORT Game Changers on the Madden side. I'll be the first to tell you that I know for a fact that my involvement has shaped the NCAA Football series.

****snipped for length****

Based on your post, it seems that it is only the "select few" that have influence.

I.E. if you're not in the Game Changers ecosystem, you almost don't mean enough since, by your words, EA goes to the Game Changers for the respective game to get their primary feedback.

That would put the influence of any community (not really just OS) outside of that as minimal, other than trying to convince the "local" Game Changers to carry their views up to EA for considering both by the development house as well as the other Game Changers for that game, or if your views of where the game should go happens to align with a Game Changer. But then, it goest back to what Big said earlier - say it often enough, and it'll happen and you'll look right, but really, it was a Game Changer that happened to say the same thing that made it happen.

[Big FN Deal]

Re: What Affect Has The Madden Community Had On Substantially Changing Next-Gen Madde

If what KB is articulating and Shaun Mason "liked" is correct, then I don't know how I feel about that. EAGC can't take just the blame or the credit for community impact in Madden then, they would have to take both. I have been quick to defend EAGCs from what I thought to be misplaced criticism for the final Madden product but if this is actually the process, perhaps that criticism has been deserved.

Shaun Mason you are the only one from the "inner circle" that has been willing to comment thus far, can you elaborate?

[shaunlmason]

If what KB is articulating and Shaun Mason "liked" is correct, then I don't know how I feel about that. EAGC can't take just the blame or the credit for community impact in Madden then, they would have to take both. I have been quick to defend EAGCs from what I thought to be misplaced criticism for the final Madden product but if this is actually the process, perhaps that criticism has been deserved.

Shaun Mason you are the only one from the "inner circle" that has been willing to comment thus far, can you elaborate?

My like was facetious. I answered the question honestly and CLEARLY noted I was representing my opinion only.

Regardless of how transparent and kind I try to be I feel that there are two camps here, one who try to invalidate the contributions of the Game Changers and another who tries to paint us as some villainous ruling caste.

My opinion is what I said, we have access and are influential by proximity. Everyone here has the same opportunity if they grasp it, in my opinion.

I, nor any other GCer to my knowledge (link me to otherwise) has attempted to take credit for anything, we simply have access to suggest and feedback. I gave a couple simple examples of my feedback and the result. Chicken or egg, change happened and that's what matters to me.

Being a part of the program is a sacrifice as well as a privilege. I was fortunate to be involved in the evolution of my main hobby, but I also sacrificed three weeks of vacation I could have used to spend time with my family.

I'm not asking for a cookie, I just wish people could treat us like the passionate, caring people we are.

[ZFarls]

Re: What Affect Has The Madden Community Had On Substantially Changing Next-Gen Madde

I'm going to agree with Shaun's post. I enjoyed his engineering mind laying some of the reasons ___ can get in the game but ___cant.

Other sidenote is at the Community Events, not everyone is a Gamechanger. It's not a cult and plenty of "outside" influences are taken at the same face value as people in the program. Guys from the sim standard who I would assume align more with the values of OS than I do attend. We spend 24 of the 48 hours just talking about sim vs tourney, cheese, gameplay and everything. We are in person and act like adults, things get solved, views gets understood and a mutual respect is earned for a person's right to play a game as they choose.

As far as getting well thought out ideas from people or having to align with a GC etc...

I make forums topics on every community asking for feedback and provide my own personal email to make sure my list is in peak form before I stand up and explain to Devs and Producers where their products lack and how they can improve it. But, allI usually get is tweet or two that say "give an option for x, see if they can add y" Rarely do I get the well thought idea's or something I would feel proud to hand to someone. I feel more like Bruce Willis reading his crews wishlist to NASA in Armageddon. But, I respect everyone's opinion if they care about the game and literally read every idea outloud standing up in a room of 30 people. People don't have agendas, certain attendees do focus more on one area than others tho.

Hope this helps, yes it is cool to head down and there are always fresh faces and ideas. But, I agree with Shaun on spending your own time away from family because you feel the feedback is being taken seriously and you are making progress. Without this, people wouldn't waste their time.

[rudyjuly2]

Re: What Affect Has The Madden Community Had On Substantially Changing Next-Gen Madde

I do think the Game Changers try and mean well with many of them having a lot of football knowledge. I like a lot of the guys in this program and I do think they can have influence. However, I do question how they pick the game changers. It usually seems to me that the Game Changers are big fans of the game they go to and generally like the game the way it is. Certainly they have desires and opinions on how to improve the game but it would be nice if EA (and other companies as well) added one person who wanted more change and wasn't so happy with the product.

I remember Ian Cummings adding a 2K5 fan and outspoken critic of Madden to the community for Madden 10 testing. I thought that was a great idea. To bring a guy who wanted to see a different way to do line play, presentation, etc adds a lot imo. I think it's important to add guys that want to push the game in a different direction and make you rethink things otherwise you get that stale feeling of the game being the same. I also think the marketing department wants to make sure they don't have a loose cannon in the game changer program that is going to criticize the game rather than promote it.

[shaunlmason]

Re: What Affect Has The Madden Community Had On Substantially Changing Next-Gen Madde

I do think the Game Changers try and mean well with many of them having a lot of football knowledge. I like a lot of the guys in this program and I do think they can have influence. However, I do question how they pick the game changers. It usually seems to me that the Game Changers are big fans of the game they go to and generally like the game the way it is. Certainly they have desires and opinions on how to improve the game but it would be nice if EA (and other companies as well) added one person who wanted more change and wasn't so happy with the product.

I remember Ian Cummings adding a 2K5 fan and outspoken critic of Madden to the community for Madden 10 testing. I thought that was a great idea. To bring a guy who wanted to see a different way to do line play, presentation, etc adds a lot imo. I think it's important to add guys that want to push the game in a different direction and make you rethink things otherwise you get that stale feeling of the game being the same. I also think the marketing department wants to make sure they don't have a loose cannon in the game changer program that is going to criticize the game rather than promote it.

There are plenty of Game Changers who are openly critical of EA's products, they just tend to just be critical in the situations where it matters, when we are working on ideas to present at EA or while we are at Tiburon working on the current cycle.

There are literally sections of the game I wish EA would rip out and start over (line interaction, penalties, etc.) but I understand the reason that isn't feasible today. I could easily come on OS, create detailed threads that show every poorly implemented animation, illogical outcome or items that simply don't mirror reality in any way, but I personally don't feel getting people angry on message boards is a constructive or even therapeutic exercise. I felt that way before I was a Game Changer.

I'm far more interested in trying to get to the root of issues so they can be improved. That is how I got involved with EA in the first place. Long before anyone from Tradition Sports Online was a Game Changer we went out of our way to categorize bugs, simply because we could then try to standardize workarounds for our own leagues. We started sharing that information with EA and developed a relationship.

I said in my previous post, if you desire a closer relationship with the development team (individually or collectively) you need to cultivate one. The opportunity existed for OS at one point. TSO is MUCH smaller in relation, frankly much more EA positive but outside of Justin Dewiel, it is pretty rare for a EA employee to post. Why? There are 6 Game Changers based out of TSO (seven if you include RedZoneD25) and AzureEffect from The Sim Standard (another CD attendee) calls it home base now. Any information that needs to be flow in either direction easily flows through us. That same relationship could exist here if it was allowed to develop. Then the influence OS desires would be there.

That said, there is a very large group of guys who are on the extreme end of wanting realism in games in the Game Changers...you are represented. It's why I come here, because I honestly care that other people that have similar expectations from sports games have a voice.

[Icarus2k9]

Re: What Affect Has The Madden Community Had On Substantially Changing Next-Gen Madde

Quick question for you then Shaun Mason (if that is your real name)...what would OS have to do to allow this relationship to develop? I agree an overwhelming "EA suxxors" attitude isn't going to win favour, but what would be the key? May be an obvious answer, but still curious to hear it.

[Big FN Deal]

Re: What Affect Has The Madden Community Had On Substantially Changing Next-Gen Madde

There are plenty of Game Changers who are openly critical of EA's products, they just tend to just be critical in the situations where it matters, when we are working on ideas to present at EA or while we are at Tiburon working on the current cycle.

There are literally sections of the game I wish EA would rip out and start over (line interaction, penalties, etc.) but I understand the reason that isn't feasible today. I could easily come on OS, create detailed threads that show every poorly implemented animation, illogical outcome or items that simply don't mirror reality in any way, but I personally don't feel getting people angry on message boards is a constructive or even therapeutic exercise. I felt that way before I was a Game Changer.

I'm far more interested in trying to get to the root of issues so they can be improved. That is how I got involved with EA in the first place. Long before anyone from Tradition Sports Online was a Game Changer we went out of our way to categorize bugs, simply because we could then try to standardize workarounds for our own leagues. We started sharing that information with EA and developed a relationship.

I said in my previous post, if you desire a closer relationship with the development team (individually or collectively) you need to cultivate one. The opportunity existed for OS at one point. TSO is MUCH smaller in relation, frankly much more EA positive but outside of Justin Dewiel, it is pretty rare for a EA employee to post. Why? There are 6 Game Changers based out of TSO (seven if you include RedZoneD25) and AzureEffect from The Sim Standard (another CD attendee) calls it home base now. Any information that needs to be flow in either direction easily flows through us. That same relationship could exist here if it was allowed to develop. Then the influence OS desires would be there.

That said, there is a very large group of guys who are on the extreme end of wanting realism in games in the Game Changers...you are represented. It's why I come here, because I honestly care that other people that have similar expectations from sports games have a voice.

I have no intent to make this thread a referendum specifically on the CD/CE attendees and EAGCs of the community but I want to address the bold. Most people that come on websites like OS into Madden forums are passionate about NFL gaming and want to know what's going on with it. I don't want to sparse words or take anything you stated to twist it but for me, I like to hear the unedited version of what happened, NDA protected content aside of course.

I think you mentioned before that the members of TSO know you and that makes sense but OS isn't really like that. I "get to know" posters mainly from what they post and that's it. Bezo, LBz, RGiles and PGaither have all been to CD/CE before and through their post history I have found open discussion about that experience. I understand different people have different ways of doing things but some people, including me, disagree with the premise that sharing everything that happened pertaining to Madden while at Tiburon, personally good, bad or indifferent, is somehow unconstructive or just incites pointless anger. I stated "pointless" anger because I believe sometimes consumers need to get reasonably angry to facilitate change in their buying decisions and if hearing the details about the making of Madden is going to anger them or whatever reasonable emotion it might incite, than so be it.

I look at the CD/CE attendees and EAGCs as part of the community at large that has more direct contact with EA/Tiburon. As such, I don't understand why whatever is said or discussed with that group, wouldn't be relayed, as unfiltered as possible, to the rest of the community.

[ZFarls]

Re: What Affect Has The Madden Community Had On Substantially Changing Next-Gen Madde

Be Respectful. When you have the Lead Designer for Madden reading your forums and openly taking suggestions to improve the game, don't make him think the Madden community is comprised of the worst people on the planet.

You can battle with guys and still come out better for it in the end. Criticism isn't a bad thing, but lets remember your talking to a human being. If your grandkids read these forums, would they be proud in 50 years?

Things get heated at Community Events all the time, but nobody gets personal or upset or creates conspiracies as to why things don't happen.

[Icarus2k9]

Re: What Affect Has The Madden Community Had On Substantially Changing Next-Gen Madde

Be Respectful. When you have the Lead Designer for Madden reading your forums and openly taking suggestions to improve the game, don't make him think the Madden community is comprised of the worst people on the planet.

You can battle with guys and still come out better for it in the end. Criticism isn't a bad thing, but lets remember your talking to a human being. If your grandkids read these forums, would they be proud in 50 years?

Things get heated at Community Events all the time, but nobody gets personal or upset or creates conspiracies as to why things don't happen.

Okay, that's fair. Now what happens if the dialogue stems to one sentence responses for community concerns that are incredibly bland? If the entire dialogue extends to "why isn't x in / why was y removed?" "because we ran out of time / wasn't our highest priority this year" how do you create a dialogue out of that? Might be missing what you're getting at though...

[ZFarls]

Re: What Affect Has The Madden Community Had On Substantially Changing Next-Gen Madde

Because they have been transparent and you have an idea (not an understanding) but an appreciation of what it takes to develop a feature.

Because the answer is the truth and even if it was extended upon you wouldn't be any happier or would still want more.

Because answering questions full fledged 100's of times when people don't care about the answer anyway or will only use the quote as a way to make a point 3 years down the road seems like time that can be better spent doing something productive.

To help elaborate on some of the reasons "not enough time" is bland for ...

In anticipation of your follow up question: Then why is it that you could affect ____ but not ____?

The answer to that has many facets, some things don't change because:
The development road map dictates the change will occur in the future.
The underlying implementation makes the change either high risk or difficult.
It is too late in the cycle to confirm the effects of the change suggested.
The change is considered lower priority than other items currently being worked on.
Cost vs Reward is low.
The design is functioning as EA intends (i.e. my opinion is vetoed by theirs)
Other Game Changers disagree with my wants.

[Icarus2k9]

Re: What Affect Has The Madden Community Had On Substantially Changing Next-Gen Madde

Because they have been transparent and you have an idea (not an understanding) but an appreciation of what it takes to develop a feature.

Because the answer is the truth and even if it was extended upon you wouldn't be any happier or would still want more.

Because answering questions full fledged 100's of times when people don't care about the answer anyway or will only use the quote as a way to make a point 3 years down the road seems like time that can be better spent doing something productive.

To help elaborate on some of the reasons "not enough time" is bland for ...

In anticipation of your follow up question: Then why is it that you could affect ____ but not ____?

The answer to that has many facets, some things don't change because:
The development road map dictates the change will occur in the future.
The underlying implementation makes the change either high risk or difficult.
It is too late in the cycle to confirm the effects of the change suggested.
The change is considered lower priority than other items currently being worked on.
Cost vs Reward is low.
The design is functioning as EA intends (i.e. my opinion is vetoed by theirs)
Other Game Changers disagree with my wants.

Okay, that's cool. I think on a personal level, I'd love to know which of those is being invoked each time the dreaded "sorry this didn't make it" comes up, but that's just because I'd know which battles would still be worth having that debate with and which of those have no chance of being changed. Even if a quote did provide ammunition e.g. something functioning as EA intends, I'd at least prefer to know. Again, can see why they don't though.

I think in regards to the Game Changers, I can certainly cope with them defending the product because they see the inner workings more than I do by a country mile, and I can cope with them being "pro-EA" at a basic level - they wouldn't devote so much time to the thing if they weren't at least optimistic a better game can be made by the current team - but the moment that dialogue begins to smell like a PR line rather than healthy disagreement, my hackles go up slightly.

For example, when the function to edit wasn't available in the CC mode (keep saying CCM mode, which is idiotic), someone was saying in defence that the function wasn't removed, it was just never added. I know that's technically correct - the best kind of correct if Futurama serves me well - but that still felt like spin from someone who is in no way employed by EA.

Right, I've swept this way off track now. Thanks for your time anyway, going to bow out before this eats into the day waaay too much for my place of work's liking