OS Roundtable: Madden NFL 13 Demo Impressions

[GiantBlue76]

Re: OS Roundtable: Madden NFL 13 Demo Impressions

That was me who brought that up.



I never Pro-Tak was perfection, but A - go pop in Madden 09 and compare (or whatever the last Madden was before the recently-added run block assignment AI first appeared), and B - find me a team whose offensive line blocks perfectly with its gap / man assignments on every play from scrimmage. That team would never lose.

I completely disagree on the opinion of Pro-Tak, you are selling it severely short. It was a necessary step forward in player interaction, particularly in having collisions be more than one-on-one, or one of the five canned two-on-one gang tackles that Madden used to feature. There were some ridiculous moments, sure, particularly in M10 - the spin-out of the huge pileup comes to mind - but let's look at the system from a fair high-level vantage point here. It was a good, necessary, and logical progression. If I recall, Pro-Tak was also used to help improve offensive line play, allowing for even a rare double-team of a defensive lineman on occasion. Madden 10 would not have been the absolutely-lauded step forward that it was for the series without Pro-Tak.



There are only so many people working on a video game. They can't do everything ever in one cycle. Things get prioritized. Heck, this amazing Connected Careers mode you refer to, it took two years to make, according to Josh Looman himself.



This is simply not true and I will not let this slide.

• Real-time physics
• Connected Careers mode
• total control lead passing mechanic
• meaningful timed passing automatic dropbacks (1-3-5-7 step)
• new tech for receivers catching the football
• Ball Hawk mechanic for defensive backs playing against the pass
• new passing hot routes for running backs / other backfield players
• best-on-best preplay defensive alignment
• route timing windows affect when a receiver is prepared to look for a catch
• reaction-based defense (defender must see ball to react to it)
• all-new audio systems for commentary and crowd
• hundreds of hours of new color commentary from Jim Nantz and Phil Simms, replacing Gus Johnson and Cris Collinsworth
• presentation overhaul
• redesigned frontend user interface
• significant rendering engine improvements (HDR lighting, per-play lighting changes)
• some new stuff into Ultimate Team which probably interests other people but not myself

Again, CCM took two years to build, as stated by EA themselves. The systems that EA is leveraging for RTP is probably the same tech that began in FIFA 12, so it technically has been in development for two years as well. Things that are good take time to make.



Why not? You couldn't in Madden (with a great deal of success, anyway) before, and you can (with much more success) now. This significantly affects how you the user actively controls and plays the game when passing the football. That is a more necessary and relevant improvement from a video game perspective than offensive line play.

The user never has direct control over anything an offensive lineman may do; he can change assignments with slide protect, but the AI is still going to always play out that assignment regardless of user input. Changes to that end are much more interesting. Similarly to the route timing windows; this actively affects how the user plays the game, because him throwing to a receiver with a dimmed icon (that receiver isn't looking) likely is going to return a negative result. Similarly to the read-and-react defense; if the defender's back is turned, throwing over that defender probably is going to return a positive result because he will never identify the ball. You see where I'm going with this; all these additions directly affect how the user plays the game. Thus, strictly from a video game perspective, they are more important.

This is not me saying the OL-DL play shouldn't get any love; it should. But you simply can't so readily dismiss what has been added to the passing game.



Four points addressing this and in closing:

1 - Offering opinions as fact, while fun, doesn't make your opinion any more true than mine.

2 - Madden is objectively a AAA title; that whole AAA - AA - A thing refers solely to the budget of and resources thrown at a project, not the subjective quality of resulting product. To this end, Madden approaches Call of Duty.

3 - What ever happened to judging a game on its own merits? It's fine if you don't like it, but I will never understand the "Madden should be better by now." So should everything else in the universe. Unfortunately, we live in the present; Madden, among other things, is what it is. As such, judge it by what it is and make your purchasing decision accordingly, again based on only what game actually pops up on the screen when you put the disc into your console. That's the only fair way to judge it.

4 - If you've decided Madden NFL 13 is not worth your while after playing the demo, that's a fine opinion to have. I disagree with it, personally, but you have every right to your opinion. That said, why would you continue to spend time playing / analyzing / critiquing something you obviously don't enjoy? There are better ways you could be spending your time.

Feel free to disagree, as this is a discussion forum. There is only one NFL game, so if I want to critique, I can do it all I want. I also know EXACTLY how best to spend my time, and I don't need an internet tough guy to try and tell me how to do that. If I felt like spending 24 hours a day critiquing Madden, I could, regardless of how you feel about it. In no way did I express my opinion as "Fact" as you say. This is a classic case of the pot calling the kettle black.

I, along with thousands of other football fans can compare Madden to any other football game we choose. It makes perfect sense to most people to compare it to other games that may have had more football elements in certain areas, including past versions of Madden. There is no RIGHT way to judge Madden, and it's completely ridiculous to suggest such a thing. To each their own.

For the record, I'm completely aware that many areas of the game are divided amongst the various sub-teams. That wasn't the point. I'm also aware that CCM took over 2 years to get implemented. When I said not much was added, I was referring to the gameplay side. Allowing you to throw over a defender is not a milestone just because the more recent Maddens did not do it well. That is a bug fix. It's a football game, you can throw a football over the other players on the field. We've been doing it for years in other games.

I'll touch on your point about the offensive line. I think you misunderstood what I meant. Missing assignments and not having "success" on plays is entirely acceptable and welcomed. Spinning around in circles, sliding into place and standing with your hands out in a hunched over position are not.

EDIT: On a side note - Disagreeing with someone on the forum, then going to your twitter page to bad mouth someone's post as an "incoherent rant" because you couldn't understand it shows the maturity of a 5 year old. Everyone on here knows that you think you are superior to everyone that does not share your sentiment of "all things Madden are wonderful", but at least show some form of adulthood when you choose to participate in a public forum. All that being said, please do me the favor of promptly adding me to your ignore list.

[ruggedrum]

The demo did in fact blow me away. The whole feel is what I imagined football would be in today's regard 15 years ago. The game is beautiful and smooth. The presentation is great. If you're someone that wants a change from recent Madden's get this one. I really can't believe how much flack this demo is getting?

I agree this is clearly the best Madden to date I dont see what people are talking about it being Wacky, I bet they will be front and center at game stop to purchase it and at midnight release too. If they want to complain about something complain about NBA live being quite as a mouse!!!!!

[Goodydog]

Re: OS Roundtable: Madden NFL 13 Demo Impressions

Arguably EA has the bold right, given that passing offenses in real life have increased in effectiveness and productivity year after year. Heck, didn't we have three quarterbacks pass for 5000+ last year?

I also don't understand how people can possibly say EA has neglected the running game over the years, given Pro-Tak, RTP, and the improvements in line play that were introduced in Madden 10 and Madden 11. Is it where the most demanding fans want it to be yet? Probably not. Should EA continue to work on this area of the game to improve it? Certainly. Can the current implementation it produce a reasonable, believable result and a fun game? Absolutely.



Anyone who plays a football game has at least a cursory interest the sport of football. As to credibility of an offered opinion, that has nothing to do with one's taste in sports video games; a person's opinion isn't more or less credible based on if he prefers Madden or something else.

I don't think that anyone would disagree with the assertion that Madden has always emphasized "the pass" (not just "recently" (to address your reference to the 2011-2012 NFL season) but ALWAYS,). Now, one could argue that the NFL has always focused on the passing aspect of football, but there have been many teams whose offensive philosophies do not revolve around a pass-first offense. To put it plainly, most players play Madden as if they are running a "New England" type offense, and Madden has ALWAYS taken that approach, not just "recently" (I know some will say "EA was ahead of its time ).

I don't think that many people would disagree the assertion that Madden has always neglected "the run" (not just "recently," but ALWAYS (regardless of the listed innovations, Madden's running game was never REFINED/POLISHED). Many teams have an offensive running approach as essential as New Orleans' passing approach, but I haven't seen evidence of this kind of focus in a Madden football game (since Neal Anderson with the Chicago Bears back in Madden 92 on the Sega Genesis; best running back in the game - 15s across the board or close to it).

I don't think that anyone would disagree with the assertion that Madden has never REALLY focused on defense.

I don't think that anyone would disagree with the assertion that Madden hasn't focused on line play (offensive/defensive).

Regarding the whole "credibility" comment, you misunderstood what I attempted to say (probably because it was meant for someone specifically). Someone stated (basically) that if you are not a fan of Madden, you are not a fan of football, implying that if you are critical of Madden then you don't like football. I was simply arguing that some (I) of us Madden critics were (and still are, to some extent) Madden fans.

Though I am a 2K fanboy, I used to be a staunch Madden fan (just like most males back in the early 90s). I was asserting that because I have played both Madden and 2K series (EXTENSIVELY), that I (as well as many other 2K fans who happen to be older) "probably" have a perspective that has developed more "objectively" than some people here who have only played Madden.

Before you retort, please consider the last paragraph above.

Thanks in advance.

[TheBrooklynBaller]

I have been playing football games since NES... 8 bit... sport games have evolved and we as a gaming community expect to keep seeing these games expand their horizons... with that said... how does EA not put out a better game than 2K5??? It has been 8 years and every year i try out a Madden game either by demo or purchasing on hope and i have been disappointed every single time (best madden in my opinion had Vick on the cover). So once again its time to dust off my ol PS2 system and pop in 2K5 for my football gaming enjoyment.


-Anyone who has updated rosters for NFL 2K5 please tell me how to get them without having to purchase any of those Max Drive or Action Replay devices. I'd be willing to ship my memory card to the end of the world to play with up to date rosters on 2K5. Thanks for anyones help in advance.

[GisherJohn24]

OXM Reviewed it, 7.5 out of 10. Full game that is.

Here is some input from the review...

+ Hugely upgraded connected careers mode features many clever touches including fake Twitter accounts.
+ Overhauled graphics engine feels heavier and more realistic
- Overall lack of polish including buggy commentary and still error prone. Also some goofy graphic glitches and lack of depth. (Not sure what they mean by lack of depth)

Overall, Madden remains quite raw. The engine shows a great deal of promise and connected features a lot of interesting ideas but there's no question that this is a rebuilding year. The best news is that EA finally seems t be on the right track. Give it another year and maybe Madden will be a true contender.

How many times have we heard that last sentence? Maybe since Madden 06?

[Smoke6]

Re: OS Roundtable: Madden NFL 13 Demo Impressions

I have been playing football games since NES... 8 bit... sport games have evolved and we as a gaming community expect to keep seeing these games expand their horizons... with that said... how does EA not put out a better game than 2K5??? It has been 8 years and every year i try out a Madden game either by demo or purchasing on hope and i have been disappointed every single time (best madden in my opinion had Vick on the cover). So once again its time to dust off my ol PS2 system and pop in 2K5 for my football gaming enjoyment.


-Anyone who has updated rosters for NFL 2K5 please tell me how to get them without having to purchase any of those Max Drive or Action Replay devices. I'd be willing to ship my memory card to the end of the world to play with up to date rosters on 2K5. Thanks for anyones help in advance.

To each is his own I guess, like I said before, I can't complain anymore, yes some issues are still there but I am loving the "fight for every inch" this game give with regard to the running game and tackling animations.

I truly feel we may just surpass 2k5 next gen after all this time, we all know they have a team working on next gen as we speak and hopefully the positives stand up and they are hard at work trying to rid of the the legacy issues.

My magic 8-ball says "maddens future looks bright"!

Less than 2weeks now fellas, good job EA for a new team and direction that shows in its first year!

[GisherJohn24]

I love the demo. Again, has some quirks that hopefully will be patched. But overall, best feel of Madden I personally can remember. The injuries need to be cutback though. I had 11 injuries in one game on the demo yesterday. That's insane.

[GisherJohn24]

I agree with you smoke6. This is an incredible start with this new engine and the future is very bright for sure!

[TheBrooklynBaller]

To each is his own I guess, like I said before, I can't complain anymore, yes some issues are still there but I am loving the "fight for every inch" this game give with regard to the running game and tackling animations.

I truly feel we may just surpass 2k5 next gen after all this time, we all know they have a team working on next gen as we speak and hopefully the positives stand up and they are hard at work trying to rid of the the legacy issues.

My magic 8-ball says "maddens future looks bright"!

Less than 2weeks now fellas, good job EA for a new team and direction that shows in its first year!

I think Madden is improving...yes... but not in the area's that it should have been improving on 8 years ago. They are almost on a decade with this. The OL/DL, WR/CB interactions are still terrible, AI decision making is still terrible, presentation is boring... your telling me that they cant have an in studio halftime report... or post game reports... 2k5 had run downs and highlights from season games to keep me interested. Ea says if its in the game its in the game... really i don't know what game their talking about. Its just my honest opinion, that yes... Madden seems better... but better than what??? The last Madden?? All football games will be judged upon its greatest predecessor and thats NFL 2K5 and it has been for the past 8 years. The only thing and absolute only thing Madden has over 2K5 is graphics... and it should its next gen. Don't get graphics confused with PHYSICS... 2K5 still holds reign on that as well 8 years later.

[CRMosier_LM]

OXM Reviewed it, 7.5 out of 10. Full game that is.

Here is some input from the review...

+ Hugely upgraded connected careers mode features many clever touches including fake Twitter accounts.
+ Overhauled graphics engine feels heavier and more realistic
- Overall lack of polish including buggy commentary and still error prone. Also some goofy graphic glitches and lack of depth. (Not sure what they mean by lack of depth)

Overall, Madden remains quite raw. The engine shows a great deal of promise and connected features a lot of interesting ideas but there's no question that this is a rebuilding year. The best news is that EA finally seems t be on the right track. Give it another year and maybe Madden will be a true contender.

How many times have we heard that last sentence? Maybe since Madden 06?

And they also said it was all around much better than Madden 12 yet gave it a lower score lol. The lacking depth part is absolutely laughable after playing retail. It is easily the deepest sports game on the market and deeper than any sports game I have EVER played.


Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk 2

[ryan36]

Casey, do you play the show? Or ootp?

[D Apocalypse]

I agree with everyone that says the game is best played on All-Pro at Slow speed. I also like to play with Auto-Strafe/Sprint set to Off.

Right now I'm playing with these settings and experimenting with Player Min Speed Threshold set at 30. So far so good.

[Hooe]

Re: OS Roundtable: Madden NFL 13 Demo Impressions

I think Madden is improving...yes... but not in the area's that it should have been improving on 8 years ago. They are almost on a decade with this.

Everything in the world should be better now than it is. The problem is we live in the present. Judging anything by this standard is patently unfair.

Don't get graphics confused with PHYSICS... 2K5 still holds reign on that as well 8 years later.

NFL 2K5 did not have real-time physics. It had a tackling engine based on canned animations. It was a great system. It also had a rudimentary physics system; any 3D game has one to handle collision detection and resolution. However, it was not real-time physics, which is what exists in Madden NFL 13; the previous-generation hardware simply could not handle this in most cases (the only previous-gen games I'm aware of that may have had any real-time physics implementation are Half-Life 2 and Doom 3, which I believe had real-time physics operating on much a smaller scale, such as simple manipulation of boxes and cylinders with gravity guns).

[btemp]

Re: OS Roundtable: Madden NFL 13 Demo Impressions

(1) I don't think that many people would disagree the assertion that Madden has always neglected "the run" (not just "recently," but ALWAYS (regardless of the listed innovations, Madden's running game was never REFINED/POLISHED). Many teams have an offensive running approach as essential as New Orleans' passing approach, but I haven't seen evidence of this kind of focus in a Madden football game (since Neal Anderson with the Chicago Bears back in Madden 92 on the Sega Genesis; best running back in the game - 15s across the board or close to it).

(2) I don't think that anyone would disagree with the assertion that Madden has never REALLY focused on defense.

(3) I don't think that anyone would disagree with the assertion that Madden hasn't focused on line play (offensive/defensive).

Hence the disagreement that much hasn't changed in Madden. Until these are changed Madden will lack depth and innovation.

What really disappointed me was that I was hoping that "real time physics" meant that size on the O and D line would matter and that they would fix that interaction. Unfortunately, the improvements that RTP brings so far pale in comparison to that.

[btemp]

Re: OS Roundtable: Madden NFL 13 Demo Impressions

NFL 2K5 did not have real-time physics. It had a tackling engine based on canned animations. It was a great system. It also had a rudimentary physics system; any 3D game has one to handle collision detection and resolution. However, it was not real-time physics, which is what exists in Madden NFL 13; the previous-generation hardware simply could not handle this in most cases (the only previous-gen games I'm aware of that may have had any real-time physics implementation are Half-Life 2 and Doom 3, which I believe had real-time physics operating on much a smaller scale, such as simple manipulation of boxes and cylinders with gravity guns).

I'm sure your right. But at the end of the day its about results. I don't care what you do, or how you implement it, as long as it looks like and plays like NFL football (as as close an approximation as possible).