how is Emmitt behind Payton in "Legacy Score"

[ggsimmonds]

Re: how is Emmitt behind Payton in "Legacy Score"

You seem to want strict statistical backing to determine Legacy scores, so yes, if you want the Legacy score to be accurate and actually mean something.

I don't really want that. My point to the OP was that there is a strict stat driven formula in determining user legacy score but with the real life legends EA adjusts their score as they see fit.

How is that a problem? It's time consuming, but how is that a problem? Doesn't offensive line have something to do with a RB's individual stats? Doesn't the amount of time a team is on Offense have something to do with a RB's stats? I would think you would also adjust Legacy score for a RB's blocking ability, and a RB's diversity. Not sure why it's a problem to make adjustments based on the talent around a player.

You answered the question with your next statement. It is time consuming and in video game development that is a huge disadvantage. So they do the advanced metrics you are talking about, is the payoff worth the time invested? I would say no.
For the other things you include, those are stats. Advanced stats, but nonetheless stats.

Years in the League. Gale Sayers vs Emmit Smith. Time of possession would have some impact in number of opportunities.

Gotcha. I would again point out that these are stats though :P

And by any objective measurement, I don't think Smith is anywhere near Payton.

This was funny to read (don't take it the wrong way, I know what you meant) because with objective measurements it does not matter what we think. The objective measurements that I know of all point to Smith. Like I said, personally I think Walter was better but I can't prove it empirically.

Smith and Payton aren't virtual people bound by the limitations designed and built into the game. If we wanted Legacy Scores to be more accurate with virtual players, then they should change the criteria to match while ranking real people.

And they did, and I don't necessarily disagree with them doing that. But how did they do it? Did they just say "well I think Walter should have 1000 more legacy points than Smith?"
My statement was not a judgement of how EA did it, I was only offering a possible explanation what they did.

[Dwaresacksqb]

Re: how is Emmitt behind Payton in "Legacy Score"

Barry sanders holds the record for the most negative yards in NFL history. The man never fought for a tough hard earned yard up the middle is his life. He hurt his team more than he helped them. He would continue to put his team in bad position because he always tried to bounce it outside. Who cares if he would break a couple. By that time the damage was most likely already done and the team wasn't making a comeback. Everyone just like the highlights he gave us. He was the most selfish egotistical player I have ever watched play the game. Had no love for football whatsoever and people would actually rather have this guy over emmitt because they lack some serious football I.Q.

Walter on the other hand was great from the little bit of highlights/games and stories I have come across. But yes E.A. Obviously used personal opinion when determining the legacy score. Otherwise Emmitt would clearly be on top.

One more thing. So many widereceivers are and were faster, could jump higher, was stronger and was more exciting to watch than Jerry rice. But NOBODY disrespects him like they do emmitt. Why is that? It's a crying shame and people end up looking like idiots.

[bucky60]

Re: how is Emmitt behind Payton in "Legacy Score"

Stated like a true biased Cowboys fan.

Barry sanders holds the record for the most negative yards in NFL history. The man never fought for a tough hard earned yard up the middle is his life. He hurt his team more than he helped them.

Neither player hurt their team. They were just different types of backs. One a home run hitter, the other a shorter yardage, move the chains guy. Sander's teams were not anywhere near the same level as the Cowboys teams.

He was the most selfish egotistical player I have ever watched play the game. Had no love for football whatsoever

Prove it. I would say he hated LOSING.

Walter on the other hand was great from the little bit of highlights/games and stories I have come across. But yes E.A. Obviously used personal opinion when determining the legacy score. Otherwise Emmitt would clearly be on top.

It's not personal opinion. It's reality. And Emmit would not clearly be on top. Emmit is no where near as good as Payton or Jim Brown. But keep on Cowboy homering.

One more thing. So many widereceivers are and were faster, could jump higher, was stronger and was more exciting to watch than Jerry rice. But NOBODY disrespects him like they do emmitt. Why is that? It's a crying shame and people end up looking like idiots.

Jerry Rice is the greatest receiver with Don Hutson next. Nobody is disrespecting Emmit Smith. Your just over-rating him.

[Dwaresacksqb]

Re: how is Emmitt behind Payton in "Legacy Score"

Bucky60 your mentally challenged lol. How is continuously putting your team in 3rd and long situations NOT hurting your team!? And no it is personall opinion to give Payton the higher legacy score because emmitt has achieved so much more which if you play cc that's what your legacy score is based on. If after 4 pages of talking about this we still can't help you understand how ea used personal opinion than I'm sorry for making fun of a seriously handicap person. Or maybe you don't under what opinion means? I'm done arguing about this and making fun of the unfortunate now.

[tuck243]

Re: how is Emmitt behind Payton in "Legacy Score"

I think everyone need to calm down... Secondly, you can't talk football with Cowboy's fans... They don't understand how someone team/player is better... It's simple ish and you don't need stats to tell you...

For starters, when players a as great as Payton, Smith, and Sanders their numbers will almost look identical... If Sanders continued his career as long as Emmitt did the Cowboy's fans on this thread wouldn't have the "numbers" as an excuse... What people need to do is look at the tape... It's videos on these guys on YouTube... Watch it... I've said this so many times, the best RB I've seen with my own 2 eyes was Barry Sanders... The reason he had negative yards?? He had to juke a defender in the back field A LOT... As soon as he touch the ball... Barry wasn't that damn fast... He only wanted to get to the outside because all the lanes were cut off... You can't find me one game film where Barry had an open hole and he decided to bounce outside... That whole not wanting to run up the gut is non sense...

I like Emmitt, but he wasn't fast, quick, or very strong... He didn't juke you, he was a very steady RB that found a hole and ran through it... BUT EVERYONE and I mean EVERYONE comment on how much room he had to run... Terrell Davis is another RB I remember that had holes for days to run through... These guys were already at the second level before they even got touched... It's cool that he owns the record, but don't you guys jump in here talking non sense... I think he's rated just fine, Jimmy Johnson don't get enough credit either...

[Dwaresacksqb]

Re: how is Emmitt behind Payton in "Legacy Score"

Barry sanders did not have to run for his lif all the time inhe backfield. That's just a myth from people who didn't actually watch him play back then and see highlights on YouTube as proof of his greatness.

There are a ton of articles as to why Barry is overrated.

http://m.bleacherreport.com/articles/508030-barry-sanders-is-the-most-overrated-running-back-in-nfl-history

"BUT in the playoffs:
-Had a -1 yard rushing game @Green Bay
-Averaged around 40 yards rushing per game on the road in the playoffs
-Had an all pro LT and 2 all pro WR's.
-Won ONE playoff game in his career
-Had an average defense his whole career
"

"As a individual talent he was not overrated, but as a TEAM player he was Mr. Selfish. He kind of had the MJ syndrome, without the league talent drop off to provide titles, in that while he was individually spectacular his style of play was not conducive to winning.

The RB on winning teams, especially back then, was required to do more than hit the home run. It required that if a coach calls for a dive with the expectation of a 3.5 yard gain on 1st down the back hits the whole and takes the 3.5 and leave 2nd 6.5(a very manageable down). Barry never really accepted that and instead of taking the 3 or 4 yd. guaranteed gain he would bounce two sometimes even 3 holes trying to hit a home run. Well guess what most of the time you don't hit home runs and you tend to lose lots of yards.

Here's a typical Barry Sanders scenario:

1st &10- barry refuses to take hole bounces and loses 2 yards on the play.
2nd & 12- behind the chains lions chose to throw the ball
3rd & 12- mandatory pass situation d sends the house
4th &12 - Punt

Now if you insert championship backs like Emmit or Thurman Thomas it works out completely differently. they take the hole for 2 or 3 yards leave a second and 7 which keeps the whole playbook open. Why is this important? Because it prevents the D-coordinator and his players from keying on your offense.

I would take several other backs in that era before Barry as winning is the objective and his style of running has never won titles in the league."

Hopefully I helped open peoples mind instead of being a mind controlled drooling puppet infatuated with his sanders highlights.

[Jimi XIII]

Re: how is Emmitt behind Payton in "Legacy Score"

Barry sanders holds the record for the most negative yards in NFL history. The man never fought for a tough hard earned yard up the middle is his life. He hurt his team more than he helped them. He would continue to put his team in bad position because he always tried to bounce it outside. Who cares if he would break a couple. By that time the damage was most likely already done and the team wasn't making a comeback. Everyone just like the highlights he gave us. He was the most selfish egotistical player I have ever watched play the game. Had no love for football whatsoever and people would actually rather have this guy over emmitt because they lack some serious football I.Q.

Do you know what type of offense the Lions ran then and do you know how bad their o-line was?

Spoiler

To answer the first question, they ran a run & shoot which typically consisted of 4 WRs, no FB, no TE, just their bad offensive line. The fact that he could be as good as he was with that little bit of help is amazing. The Houston Oilers & Atlanta Falcons also ran the run & shoot then, there ground game was much worse and had some better decent RBs but it was not made for the run at all.

[marginwalker12]

Re: how is Emmitt behind Payton in "Legacy Score"

So the consensus is that Barry Sanders is better because he had more highlights? Come on! Opening round of the 1994 playoffs, Barry Sanders 13 attempts... -1 yards. Emmitt Smith was money when it mattered. Keeping drives alive. And actually finishing in the red zone! He played a whole half with a dislocated shoulder against the Giants in 1993 when the division and a bye was on the line. So what if Barry was faster and more agile. Emmitt got it done. 12 playoff wins in six years.

Emmitt willed you to death. And that's why Dallas won. They went on long sustained drives that beat defenses up and wore them down. And when they got inside the 20 you gave 22 the ball and got out of the way!

Barry's runs were insane. But did they really add to the cause? They were terribly inefficient for his defense. Sure you got 7, but your defense only had to trot out that much quicker. Not to mention all those drives that stalled out inside the 20 when the Lions didn't have enough belief to give him the ball. Not to mention the times he took negative yards on first downs, putting the Lions in obvious passing downs.

So given all that, who really is the better RB? A highlight reel of a player that lights up youtube, or a running back who plays for the reason you play the game. And if you forgot, you play to win the game.

True stat, Barry Sanders had more negative plays in one game, then Smith had all of the 1993 season.

[marginwalker12]

Re: how is Emmitt behind Payton in "Legacy Score"

Do you know what type of offense the Lions ran then and do you know how bad their o-line was?

Spoiler

To answer the first question, they ran a run & shoot which typically consisted of 4 WRs, no FB, no TE, just their bad offensive line. The fact that he could be as good as he was with that little bit of help is amazing. The Houston Oilers & Atlanta Falcons also ran the run & shoot then, there ground game was much worse and had some better decent RBs but it was not made for the run at all.

Lomas Brown and Kevin Glover were chop liver, right?

[ajk49er]

Re: how is Emmitt behind Payton in "Legacy Score"

the legacy score stuff is a bit off. players who are current stars have almost insane level of points especially on D

OL. DL. OLB, CB, S

you never see people make the hall from cpu teams simming the games. they come up short even with multiple super bowls, 20 awards, so on.

I hope that is adjusted, its frustrating seeing a guy set the record for sacks in a career(JPP) actually SOMEHOW even with super bowls, and those same 20 some awards, miss the hall.(because hes active, if he was drafted it wouldnt be the 7800 legacy he had, it woiuld be like 6500)

frustrating that its so hard to get someone who say you drafted, and have them go to the hall on defense unless you are a MLB.

[Jimi XIII]

Re: how is Emmitt behind Payton in "Legacy Score"

Lomas Brown and Kevin Glover were chop liver, right?

Everybody saw that not in retrospect, but at the time that the Lions line was making it easy for Barry. We're not talking pass protection obviously. Those two alone couldn't hold up for the other 3 linemen with no TE most times and no FB for Barry. They were far from the monsters Dallas had along with having a FB like the Moose while Barry had no FB at all most times. Barry had to make every play happen for himself practically. I have friends that say the same thing about Barry not being that good because of that negative yards stat, but they also never even saw him play.

Barry literally earned every single yard he got due to the Lions scheme. Hardly any run he had was easy. I don't know anyone that's actually WATCHED Barry play say anything negative about him, only people that go by stats and oblivious to just how bad things were for anyone to run behind that scheme.

[woodjer]

Re: how is Emmitt behind Payton in "Legacy Score"

The reason he had negative yards?? He had to juke a defender in the back field A LOT... As soon as he touch the ball... Barry wasn't that damn fast... He only wanted to get to the outside because all the lanes were cut off... You can't find me one game film where Barry had an open hole and he decided to bounce outside... That whole not wanting to run up the gut is non sense...

To me, the negative yard run stat makes his career more impressive. The guy averaged 5.0 yds/carry for his career. In other words, he had a whole lot of huge runs, too. He never averaged below 4.3 yd/att in a season either. Emmitt's career avg was 4.2 and he only had 4 seasons where he averaged 4.3 per carry or higher.

Again, I'm not saying that Barry is unquestionably the best back ever or that Emmitt isn't. I'm a Lions fan just like you're (I assume) a Cowboys fan. I like Barry better than Emmitt and you like Emmitt. Trying to be objective, I'd say they were both great players in different situations. We'll never know for sure but I believe that, if the roles were reversed, Barry would have easily broken Payton's record in his 10 seasons and Emmitt would have struggled.

Finally, I've never met the guy personally, but from my own observations, bucky is far from mentally challenged when it comes to football. Calling someone that because they don't agree with you is just bush league, man. We've had our disagreements over stuff but the guy is at least respectful when he argues.

[keator]

Re: how is Emmitt behind Payton in "Legacy Score"

Emmitt Smith never had a negative rushing day in the playoffs. Emmitt carried his team to 3 Super Bowls. Always showed up big when needed. Peyton I can argue had to deal with San Francisco in their Montana prime. He might have won another if not for them. But Barry Sanders? Barry couldn't run between the tackles. If he could maybe the Lions would win more games then. Emmitt played with a dislocated shoulder! Barry retired because of the strain on his 30 year old body. He didn't love the game. Emmitt loved the game. And it showed. He played for the Cardinals well after he broke Walter's record. The Cardinals. What was he hoping of accomplishing? Nothing. He loved the game.

lol how do you know he didnt love the game, maybe he just wanted to enjoy the money he earned, and be able to walk when he is 50.

Emmit would never of smelt that record if barry kept playing, so be thank ful mr sanders decided to retire

[woodjer]

Re: how is Emmitt behind Payton in "Legacy Score"

Lomas Brown and Kevin Glover were chop liver, right?

To that, I say:

Pro Bowl players, but you really can't argue great.

You can't discount Pro Bowl players to say Emmitt is better and then discredit Barry because he had them. And that's says nothing about the two Hall of Famers that Emmitt had over Barry.

[bucky60]

Re: how is Emmitt behind Payton in "Legacy Score"

Bucky60 your mentally challenged lol. How is continuously putting your team in 3rd and long situations NOT hurting your team!?

Sanders did not continuously put his team in 3rd and long. He averaged 5.0 yards a carry over his entire career.

And no it is personall opinion to give Payton the higher legacy score because emmitt has achieved so much more

The Dallas Cowboys achieved so much more than the Chicago Bears. Payton was a better football player than Smith. Payton ran with speed to the outside, he ran with power inside, be was an excellent blocker, an excellent receiver, and threw the ball very well. There was not one part of being a RB that Payton didn't excel in.

Smith was on a Superbowl caliber team with fellow HOF'ers. He was a run between the tackles, move the chains type of runner behind a very good offensive line.

which if you play cc that's what your legacy score is based on. If after 4 pages of talking about this we still can't help you understand how ea used personal opinion than I'm sorry for making fun of a seriously handicap person.

I never said EA didn't use personal opinion. I don't know how they calculated their legacy rating. All I said was Payton was better than Smith and should have a higher legacy rating. You can make all the personal attacks you want, but that doesn't make Smith any better.

Or maybe you don't under what opinion means? I'm done arguing about this and making fun of the unfortunate now.

More personal attacks. But you keep coming back with personal insults. I watched both of them throughout their entire careers. Not every single game, but throughout their entire careers. The Packers played the Bears twice a year. Payton was feared. Smith was one element of a strong Dallas team.

It is not opinion. It's an objective analysis. Payton was a better football player in every aspect of the game. Smith was on better teams. You are greatly under-rating Payton if you put Smith above him, or greatly over-rating Smith. You have a better argument with Sanders VS Smith.

And LOL at Sanders hurting his team leaving them in continuous 3rd and longs. 5 yds per carry for his career. Smith 4.2.