Would A Fee Based DLC For Advanced User Customization And Sharing Work?

[SloeyEZ]

Re: Would A Fee Based DLC For Advanced User Customization And Sharing Work?

HA! I'm the only Undecided vote woot woot

[GiantBlue76]

Re: Would A Fee Based DLC For Advanced User Customization And Sharing Work?

Big - you know that I know exactly where you are coming from However, the main reason I don't agree is that this OP is suggesting that the reason why Madden is not realistic is because the developers have "purposely" left out the ability to customize the game to a realistic level. I know we've had countless of conversations discussing this and we have come to the conclusion that there is definitely evidence of this in some areas. However, I do not really believe that is the case as much as it is the ability of the developers to make the game realistic. What's the analogy I always use? A person who has as drug or alcohol problem (or any real problem for that matter) cannot make strides in fixing that problem without first being able to acknowledge that problem. These guys really believe that Madden is a great simulation. You can tell them they are wrong all you want, but they will simply show you their sales chart and say, "you're wrong... see?". Not to mention, it's clear that no matter what they try to paint on the cover, it's still the same crap inside the book. Play the game for 5 minutes and look at the tackles that occur for example. You will never see a realistic looking tackle. Guys get hit by shoulder charges and simply go horizontal and land on their back. When a guy gets hurt, he tries to get up and then flops over holding his ribs EVERY SINGLE TIME. Players are weightless and run around the field on turntables. Guys still warp and shift into position. With the new physics engine you can endlessly glide on the tops of your feet instead of tripping. The players all follow the ball and move in unison using the same animations.

What's even more concerning is getting an answer back that says that 2k basically is an interactive movie. I was so shocked to see that response that I almost fell out of my chair and had to sit here and think of what to say to that. So instead of sugar coating my response, I am going to just say what I really think and what many others on here are also thinking. 2k just did it better. Their programmers are much better, their designers are better and their effort is better. The player movement is top notch, the football is incredibly well represented and I still have all of the user control I could want. It's abundantly clear that the programmers at Tiburon are sitting there scratching their heads with a befuddled look on their faces saying, "dammit, how the hell did they do this?". The 2k guys are sitting there saying, "LMAO, yep, they still haven't figured it out".

I'm sure for an EA employee, that is frustrating to hear. How about responding to that sentiment by raising the bar? Rise to the occasion and put in the effort to fix this colossal fail. Don't think there are that many folks who feel this way? Really... An entire sub culture was born from this exact sentiment. It's all over the internet - youtube, forums, social media. It can be done...

[SloeyEZ]

Re: Would A Fee Based DLC For Advanced User Customization And Sharing Work?

Big - you know that I know exactly where you are coming from However, the main reason I don't agree is that this OP is suggesting that the reason why Madden is not realistic is because the developers have "purposely" left out the ability to customize the game to a realistic level. I know we've had countless of conversations discussing this and we have come to the conclusion that there is definitely evidence of this in some areas. However, I do not really believe that is the case as much as it is the ability of the developers to make the game realistic. What's the analogy I always use? A person who has as drug or alcohol problem (or any real problem for that matter) cannot make strides in fixing that problem without first being able to acknowledge that problem. These guys really believe that Madden is a great simulation. You can tell them they are wrong all you want, but they will simply show you their sales chart and say, "you're wrong... see?". Not to mention, it's clear that no matter what they try to paint on the cover, it's still the same crap inside the book. Play the game for 5 minutes and look at the tackles that occur for example. You will never see a realistic looking tackle. Guys get hit by shoulder charges and simply go horizontal and land on their back. When a guy gets hurt, he tries to get up and then flops over holding his ribs EVERY SINGLE TIME. Players are weightless and run around the field on turntables. Guys still warp and shift into position. With the new physics engine you can endlessly glide on the tops of your feet instead of tripping. The players all follow the ball and move in unison using the same animations.

What's even more concerning is getting an answer back that says that 2k basically is an interactive movie. I was so shocked to see that response that I almost fell out of my chair and had to sit here and think of what to say to that. So instead of sugar coating my response, I am going to just say what I really think and what many others on here are also thinking. 2k just did it better. Their programmers are much better, their designers are better and their effort is better. The player movement is top notch, the football is incredibly well represented and I still have all of the user control I could want. It's abundantly clear that the programmers at Tiburon are sitting there scratching their heads with a befuddled look on their faces saying, "dammit, how the hell did they do this?". The 2k guys are sitting there saying, "LMAO, yep, they still haven't figured it out".

I'm sure for an EA employee, that is frustrating to hear. How about responding to that sentiment by raising the bar? Rise to the occasion and put in the effort to fix this colossal fail. Don't think there are that many folks who feel this way? Really... An entire sub culture was born from this exact sentiment. It's all over the internet - youtube, forums, social media. It can be done...

Quite honestly, my whole take on M13 is this:

I do think they left things out but it was because the general philosophy of M13 is that it was a test. A litmus test if you will to gauge how/what/why today's Madden consumer wants/feels.

What I'm saying is, that this game wasn't released to put the best game out there possible, but to determine which game they were going to make in the future. It's almost like it was another Head Coach attempt which was 3 years apart the first time and 4 this time as in HC 06 09 13...

That's what my gut tells me anyway, is that this was a test, rather than the next Madden game.

so yeah, be angry if you don't like being a guinea pig, or be happy that information was gathered on how to make the next game better...depends on how you look at it I guess.

[GiantBlue76]

Re: Would A Fee Based DLC For Advanced User Customization And Sharing Work?

Quite honestly, my whole take on M13 is this:

I do think they left things out but it was because the general philosophy of M13 is that it was a test. A litmus test if you will to gauge how/what/why today's Madden consumer wants/feels.

What I'm saying is, that this game wasn't released to put the best game out there possible, but to determine which game they were going to make in the future. It's almost like it was another Head Coach attempt which was 3 years apart the first time and 4 this time as in HC 06 09 13...

That's what my gut tells me anyway, is that this was a test, rather than the next Madden game.

so yeah, be angry if you don't like being a guinea pig, or be happy that information was gathered on how to make the next game better...depends on how you look at it I guess.

The rub here is that I am not looking at it solely from an M13 perspective. I'm looking at it from an 8 year crap-fest perspective. That's the thing with Madden. The anticipation of future iterations of the game is what captures more attention than the current version of the game. Wash, rinse and repeat. They simply can't do it. There are probably a lot of reasons. The implementation is bad, the design is not too sharp and the decision making is head scratching. About the only thing that's done well is the art work.

[SloeyEZ]

Re: Would A Fee Based DLC For Advanced User Customization And Sharing Work?

The rub here is that I am not looking at it solely from an M13 perspective. I'm looking at it from an 8 year crap-fest perspective. That's the thing with Madden. The anticipation of future iterations of the game is what captures more attention than the current version of the game. Wash, rinse and repeat. They simply can't do it. There are probably a lot of reasons. The implementation is bad, the design is not too sharp and the decision making is head scratching. About the only thing that's done well is the art work.

Valid point, and this may just be the Pollyanna in me, but I hope that it is only because they haven't stuck with one concept. (not that that is a good thing, but...) Not that they are incapable. In fact I know that Looman & Co. are capable of making a great game because they did it with HC, so perhaps that is why I'm more optimistic than you or others. Although, conversely, I'm more worried because they may be trying to make a game from all perspectives rather than just the head coach, which may not be possible.

[TMJOHNS18]

Re: Would A Fee Based DLC For Advanced User Customization And Sharing Work?

The reason why I am completely against this is that we already have a game that is FAR overpriced considering the mess you get. Also, none of this is going to fix it. You have guys that literally spend 100s of hours tweaking settings and sliders and everything under the sun and the game still plays like ****. It's not a slider or setting issue that is preventing the game from playing realistically. It's the mechanics of the game itself. Adjusting settings is NOT going to fix it, just like a physics engine didn't do anything to make it more realistic.

To be fair, nearly all games released on the PS3/360 have a price point of $60. I know people harp on the fact that Madden is such a "waste" and "overpriced," but to be realistic there have been far worse bugged and broken games that have been released at the same price.

However, the fact that Madden is allowed to do this yearly is the issue. Other games either get fixed or die out because of how they shipped, never to see a sequel. Yet, Madden is allowed to do it year in and year out. So the real problem isn't that Madden charges $60 for the game (since that is the regular price for games), but that the Madden dev's are allowed to consistently do sub-par work and submit unfinished products and EA has no problem with this.

They may argue that time constraints lead to this, but this isn't their first time making a game. This isn't the first time EA has developed a game. The developers at Madden and EA should be knowledgeable of what is possible and what is not in their development window. But year in and year out they fail to ship a complete product and that can only lead me to one conclusion. Either the higher ups at Madden are incompetent and constantly underachieve what they set out for each year, or that the Dev's have become lazy and know that they don't have to completely finish their work and know that they can get away with it.

Any other company in an industry would truly struggle if they constantly put out a product that underachieved as much as Madden does year in and year out (not functioning fully). The only saving grace for Madden is their lack of competition. Hopefully EA loses their exclusivity and they actually put in more effort to shipping a more complete product.

[vatechfan44]

Re: Would A Fee Based DLC For Advanced User Customization And Sharing Work?

To sum it up it would work.......for ea's accounting department...........but not for us.

[GiantBlue76]

Re: Would A Fee Based DLC For Advanced User Customization And Sharing Work?

Valid point, and this may just be the Pollyanna in me, but I hope that it is only because they haven't stuck with one concept. (not that that is a good thing, but...) Not that they are incapable. In fact I know that Looman & Co. are capable of making a great game because they did it with HC, so perhaps that is why I'm more optimistic than you or others. Although, conversely, I'm more worried because they may be trying to make a game from all perspectives rather than just the head coach, which may not be possible.

It depends. For me, it's all about the gameplay FIRST. The football on the field is paramount, and that is incredibly sub par compared to other older games that we once had. The head coach simulation aspects are next inline. Those are also bad in madden. We still don't even have a waiver wire. These are things that fantasy football apps are able to have, yet we can't have one in Madden? Come on... It's not like they have to design it, the design is already present because the NFL comes up with these mechanisms. It simply needs to be implemented. For every product I've worked on in my career as a developer, if I ever told my superiors or the customer that it was too hard and that it takes a long time I'd be fired in less than 5 minutes. Yet, it's a constant response from Tiburon. Everyone has had enough.

[Cory Levy]

Re: Would A Fee Based DLC For Advanced User Customization And Sharing Work?

Let's face it, EA Tiburon ain't doing anything unless it makes them money, so complain as we might, I doubt they open up User customization in Madden, unless we open our wallets to them.

They re-did the Fantasy Draft and put it in the game for free.

But yeah, EA is nothing but a money grubbing big wig!

[NateDogPack12]

Let's face it, EA Tiburon ain't doing anything unless it makes them money, so complain as we might, I doubt they open up User customization in Madden, unless we open our wallets to them. People reference a lot around here how OS and other "sim" gamers are a small percentage of Madden's consumer base, the 1% if you will, so it seems logical that our collective money could make room for us.

Here is the basic premise of my suggestion. Not all of us are actually into or would individually utilize a vast array of User customization options but collectively we could and likely would. So I propose two fee based DLCs, one to unlock advanced User Interfaces to otherwise unavailable options and the other a community share. Neither of these suggestions is at all new or innovative to sports gaming or EA Tiburon, as even NCAA Football currently offers a share locker and custom music but all that continues to allude Madden, imo due to wanting to ensure gamers buy the next edition. I am not intending to debate EA Tiburon's business practices concerning Madden in this thread, just pointing out what seem to be the realities of the situation and what ways the community at large might deal with them.

Considering that most gamers interested in a community share project such as this, would likely go for the fee based community share DLC opposed to the one for User customization, I would propose that the latter be of higher cost. For example, provided the User customization DLC included extensive options, such as full player editing including the unlimited use of GameFace, custom stadium sounds/music, global ratings editor, manual tuner set ability, unique sliders like locomotion, playbook/play editor/creator, universal GameFlow/GamePlan access, universal team management AI logic access and anything else that Users could reasonably access, then that could be at a cost of $20 or more. Then the cost of the community share could be set lower at $10, with those that actually utilize the User customization tools, taking donations from those in the community that choose to download their work, to offset their cost.

Now as a caveat to "Caesar" aka EA Tiburon, if possible, they can even put an expiration date on these DLCs so that we are forced to either renew or obtain a new DLC to coincide with the release of the next edition of Madden. Again I suggest this because I believe the reason we don't have these capabilities currently in Madden at no cost and that Madden is no longer available on PC where it would undoubtedly be modded, is due to EA Tiburon's concern of gamers not getting the newest version.

I know some will come at me sideways as if I am crazy or must be some EA Tiburon affiliate floating an idea like this but if it takes $75-$85 total, $65 for the game + $10-$20 DLC, to get a NFL game I can enjoy the whole year, so be it. I am just trying to give a general idea of what I am suggesting and I hope people reading this get the gist. It has become evident to me that for whatever reason EA Tiburon will not be making Madden into the type of NFL football game I can enjoy for an extended period of time so I would like the community at large to have the chance to.

I would like to hear what others think about this and hopefully I don't get placed on too many ignore lists for starting this thread. If you can't beat 'em, bribe 'em.

Let me put it this way. If they don't open up customization in CCM, I for one and not opening my wallet up for them. Ever again.

[prey2god]

Re: Would A Fee Based DLC For Advanced User Customization And Sharing Work?

If EA does this, it's basically telling the customers they're stupid and oblivious. You don't want to tell anybody that unless you want them to deviate from you.

[droopizzle34]

Re: Would A Fee Based DLC For Advanced User Customization And Sharing Work?

I really feel like the lack of competition is the problem. The exclusive license is the issue. Just look at NBA Live, 2K came and blew Live away, so bad that we havent (and may never again) seen it released. I`d be willing to bet Madden may have suffered the same fate if it had the competition to really be the proof to expose what we the gamers have been saying for years...Madden is a flawed,sorry excuse for a football sim.

I just would not pay for DLC like that when the stuff SHOULD ALREADY BE IN THE GAME! Thats why I rarely buy maps and such for shooter games, my 60 bucks should be enough.... smh..

[KingV2k3]

Re: Would A Fee Based DLC For Advanced User Customization And Sharing Work?

Madden is "my golf"...

So, a Fully Loaded / Hardcore / Super Sim version would be worth a lot more (to me) $$$ than you're suggesting...

It would end up costing less in the long run than what I figure ONE game of actual golf does...

What's a greens fee, cart rental, drinks and snacks on a decent course go for these days?

I'd pay that...

[KBLover]

Re: Would A Fee Based DLC For Advanced User Customization And Sharing Work?

To answer the title question, yes - it probably would work. However, I resist it on principle, or, another way, the rest of the gaming world works in that mod tools, even if provided by the developer, are free. Blizzard isn't in the business of charity, but you don't have to pay to get the SC2 map maker, just as an example.

Even if EA did this tomorrow and I loved what they put out - I would not get it as a "vote with my wallet". Call me old-school, ridiculous, stubborn - but I would not get it.

Let's face it, EA Tiburon ain't doing anything unless it makes them money, so complain as we might, I doubt they open up User customization in Madden, unless we open our wallets to them. People reference a lot around here how OS and other "sim" gamers are a small percentage of Madden's consumer base, the 1% if you will, so it seems logical that our collective money could make room for us.

References are one thing. Without any kind of actual somewhat believable data, I don't think people who either a) want/demand realism or b) people who wouldn't be put off by it are all that much the minority.

Here is the basic premise of my suggestion. Not all of us are actually into or would individually utilize a vast array of User customization options but collectively we could and likely would. So I propose two fee based DLCs, one to unlock advanced User Interfaces to otherwise unavailable options and the other a community share. Neither of these suggestions is at all new or innovative to sports gaming or EA Tiburon, as even NCAA Football currently offers a share locker and custom music but all that continues to allude Madden, imo due to wanting to ensure gamers buy the next edition.

Then I would say Tiburon is being short-sighted and that we shouldn't pay more because of it.

Considering that most gamers interested in a community share project such as this, would likely go for the fee based community share DLC opposed to the one for User customization, I would propose that the latter be of higher cost. For example, provided the User customization DLC included extensive options, such as full player editing including the unlimited use of GameFace, custom stadium sounds/music, global ratings editor, manual tuner set ability, unique sliders like locomotion, playbook/play editor/creator, universal GameFlow/GamePlan access, universal team management AI logic access and anything else that Users could reasonably access, then that could be at a cost of $20 or more. Then the cost of the community share could be set lower at $10, with those that actually utilize the User customization tools, taking donations from those in the community that choose to download their work, to offset their cost.

So basically, they would get $95 per copy just so you can edit the game and have all the sliders in it and real "football-y" things like making plays and playbooks that you should have access to anyway?

Even if I wasn't against the concept on principle, I think that's unreasonable.

Again I suggest this because I believe the reason we don't have these capabilities currently in Madden at no cost and that Madden is no longer available on PC where it would undoubtedly be modded, is due to EA Tiburon's concern of gamers not getting the newest version.

If that is their actual stance, then they must have no confidence in their own future offerings. I mean if a group of guys can get together with their ideas and a few "rudimentary" tools to tweak things and write a few lines of script for the AI can actually make people not buy the next offering - that says something...about the developer.

I mean, let's take M12. Could modders put in the pass trajectories or the read-and-react defense that is in M13? Could they implement the Infinity Engine? If the developers have actual strong ideas for improving the game, they are likely going to beyond the fancy band-aiding that's roster editing and a few scripts to alter some behaviors (because would a mod tool actually allow you to basically reprogram the game? Not likely).

Heck, they could download the mods themselves and see the community fixes. Incorporate them into the next patch for all if they fix a universal bug or flaw with credit to the modder(s) that made it.

Now, again, maybe I just don't "get" sports gaming or have played to many "niche" or small fanbase games (or too many PC games, including sequels/franchises) that seem to have a different developer/modder/gamer dynamic than "mainstream" releases, but I just find that stance, should that be Tiburon's actual approach, really lacking in their own ability - that they would view modders as a threat to their next game.

(PS: I don't know if I came at you sideways - I love expressions that make me laugh if I visualize them literally - but maybe diagonally LOL - or maybe it was totally perpendicular! )

[ghostlight85]

Re: Would A Fee Based DLC For Advanced User Customization And Sharing Work?

Madden is "my golf"...

So, a Fully Loaded / Hardcore / Super Sim version would be worth a lot more (to me) $$$ than you're suggesting...

It would end up costing less in the long run than what I figure ONE game of actual golf does...

What's a greens fee, cart rental, drinks and snacks on a decent course go for these days?

I'd pay that...

I payed about 55 yesterday to play a very nice public course, counting a couple beverages on the course. I love golf, and even though yesterday I played like complete garbage and shot the worst score I have in over a year, it was still worth the money.

I am trying hard to feel like Madden was worth the $60 I spent on it, despite the fact that I get a lot more hours of "entertainment" from it.

I think that I'd pay $10 more for a version of madden that had an advanced user customization suite in it if it were known from the start that it was going to be an optional thing. It would seal the deal of me buying the game again, which is otherwise up in the air for next year for me. I would not buy such a DLC this year. In fact, if it were released this year as a fee-based DLC I believe I would sell my copy of the game.